Once the shiny/slick is worn off good worsted the cloth usually plays about the same for quite a while. Good cloth on a home table can easily last up yo 10yrs.
Tight pockets are NOT good for the game!
- Thread starter brunswick1901
- Start date
ok... again, this is clearly a difference of opinion based on ability. "Cheating" a pocket = purposely not aiming center. <- This an incredibly common method of simplifying potting by reducing the requirement of english. So common I'd wager it happens several times within a rack for any player >650.
I've only ran into the 50's a few times on my 9' diamond pro with 4.5" pockets. I don't play 14.1 and it was only ever a practice excercise, but I assure you it's a tough ask to put up big numbers in straight pool on such a table.
Whoever said spin has to used to play shape? Of course its used but cheating the pocket is as important to pool as chalk. Small pockets turns pool from a flowing game to a game of 'cinch pool' where all you do is shoot to make it and take tougher following shots. Sounds a lot like that snoozefest known as 'Chinese8ball'.
I came up in pool halls that had one or two tight tables for the pool players, and a bunch of loose tables for the recreational players.
That is how I feel it should be done still today.
I remember a guy where I worked getting into pool, joining a league, etc.
When it came time to buy his own cue, I suggested coming into the pool hall and test hitting a few (unchalked) to pick one that suited him.
He grabbed a cue and jumped onto table 1 where I was playing, to hit a few balls.
Table 1 was a GCII with 3 15/16" pockets. It was painful to watch him miss every single shot. I had to walk away.
I later bought that tight table and gave the coworker my 8' home table with buckets.
That is how I feel it should be done still today.
I remember a guy where I worked getting into pool, joining a league, etc.
When it came time to buy his own cue, I suggested coming into the pool hall and test hitting a few (unchalked) to pick one that suited him.
He grabbed a cue and jumped onto table 1 where I was playing, to hit a few balls.
Table 1 was a GCII with 3 15/16" pockets. It was painful to watch him miss every single shot. I had to walk away.
I later bought that tight table and gave the coworker my 8' home table with buckets.
shooter_Hans
Well-known member
I'm just explaining in theory but you are probably correct with higher rated players. I do understand what you are saying and agree with your sentiment.
Maybe you missed it, but my responses have been to Hans, as he believes pocket cheating less than common because applying english is easier.
I've got that troll on perma-Ignore so yeah i probably missed your initial take.
That's a gross over simplification. Pocket cheating is an integral part of the game. No one plays flawless shape. ...and the odds are that those that may play near flawlessly will still purposely cheat pockets when the opportunity rises to increase the odds of success.
You're grouping different circumstances that need to be assessed on a case by case basis.
Cheating a pocket does inherently lower the +/- of getting the ball within the pocket, but it increases the odds of compensating for CB squirt and subsequently getting the CB to track correctly to the OB. Do those two factors cancel one another out...? That's player dependent and why I always encourage players, who already are strong potters, to grow accustomed to cheating rather than hedging on the side of +/-. The ability to consistently and successfully cheat pockets makes generating shape waaaaay easier. ...and allows the player to focus mainly on the pot, rather than the pot and the additional CB dynamics required to generate the following shape.
To your second point. When did I ever imply all shots must be played with a cheating dynamic..? If the opportunity is there and it's to your benefit. I think you're assessment of how often it's to your advantage is misguided. However to retort using you own example. If you had a thin cut with a small window. Wouldn't you rather have years of purposeful "cheating accuracy" under your belt. Rather than the experience of relying on the maximum +/- all the time...?
That seems to make sense. However the game is better played by getting the best shape possible and utilizing every opportunity to make the rack as easy as possible. That includes simplifying potting and working the CB with as little force as possible.
I now have 4 and 1/8" pockets on my Gold Crown. I had almost 5 inch pockets before tightening them up. I may be aiming a little better now but rarely run more than 5 or 6 balls at a time in nine ball. It has robbed my confidence in running out. Time will tell if I can get my big pocket game back with tighter pockets. I wish they had left the pockets alone in the pool world. But if tight pockets are what we have to compete on then I guess I will get used to it or loosen mine back up and quit trying to go out and win tournaments.
"Cheating the pocket" sounds a bit nefarious. I think of it as using the whole pocket. The things coming up in the recent part of the thread make me wonder something although the answer is most likely up to the individual.
Is it easier, do you find it easier, to cheat the pocket or to use extreme side spin? I know using both, and using both at the same time, is possible.
Just supposing you are in the finals for a nice local tournament, you will net a bit over ten-thousand for a win. Four balls left on the table in nine or ten ball. You are shooting so choosing the pattern is up to you too. Are you going to use primarily strong side spin or cheating a pocket to get around?
As a proponent of speed and angles over extreme side spin it is just a given that I will use the entire pocket before going to more than a tip of side spin. Object ball distance from the pocket will influence my call as will the exact shot. I might want a lot of sidespin to avoid throw or create extra throw, matters more with dirty balls. Since I am using side spin anyway I will use it to get the cue ball around. If pocketing the object ball is easy without spin, then speed, angles, and using the entire pocket is more likely.
Hu
Is it easier, do you find it easier, to cheat the pocket or to use extreme side spin? I know using both, and using both at the same time, is possible.
Just supposing you are in the finals for a nice local tournament, you will net a bit over ten-thousand for a win. Four balls left on the table in nine or ten ball. You are shooting so choosing the pattern is up to you too. Are you going to use primarily strong side spin or cheating a pocket to get around?
As a proponent of speed and angles over extreme side spin it is just a given that I will use the entire pocket before going to more than a tip of side spin. Object ball distance from the pocket will influence my call as will the exact shot. I might want a lot of sidespin to avoid throw or create extra throw, matters more with dirty balls. Since I am using side spin anyway I will use it to get the cue ball around. If pocketing the object ball is easy without spin, then speed, angles, and using the entire pocket is more likely.
Hu
You are at the perfect point to start running the table. Resist the temptation to get ideal shape. Just get the cue ball
in the neighborhood and trust your shooting skills to cut the object ball and still control cue ball speed for shape. And
playing center ball on cuts shots, or minimizing English, helps contain unnecessary cue ball movement. Remember this
& I preach it to all that will listen, the last 3 balls decide the game. The first 6 or 7 balls in 9 ball or 10 ball are merely
prepatory to reaching the last 3 balls. How many innings it took to reach the last 3 balls is irrelevant. And if you get ball
in hand, then change that to the last 4 balls since you get to decide where the cue ball rests to play the last 3 balls.
When you get to the last 3 balls, since you’ve complained about not running the table due to tighter pockets, start
all over mentally. Walk around the table viewing the last 3 balls. Plan you map and what shots you intend to play and
more importantly, how you will play the shots for shape. Remember, it’s not perfect shape you want, just in the neighborhood. And you’ll be amazed at how many times that approach results in almost perfect shape and I have no idea what that would be for you. My point is the last 3 balls are fewer in number than the 5 or 6 you just ran to get there. You are mentally beating yourself rattling pockets or over cutting on the last 3 balls which frustrates anyone.
Treat the last 3 balls like a brand new game. And remember that with smaller pockets, the speed of the object ball is
as important than the speed of the cue ball. Tighter pockets are more receptive to slower rolling object balls played
on long shots or cut shots & banks, when you get to the last 3 balls, make sure you remember it. And then play a new
table mentally for the last 3 object balls. Start counting how many games you win because your opponent misses running the table and you run the last 3 balls to win the game. Sometimes it’s 2 balls or the winning 9 ball or 10 ball.
The point is you win a lot of games because your opponent misses on the last 3 balls and it’s typically due to their
trying to get shape to run the table. If you run the table and reach the last 3 balls, be Minnesota Fats like how he
walked away from Eddie the first time they played to wash his hands and start fresh. He had a new mental outlook
and it was one of winning and determination. Look, when you get to the last 3 balls, don’t even think about missing
but always respect your skills and the shot difficulty. If you’re not really confident on a shot, play safe on the last 3
balls. Otherwise, respect the table, stop trying for ideal shape, you already made tougher shots earlier so there is
nothing special about the last 3 balls, control your nerves, play smart shots controlling object ball & cue ball speed.
Pay more attention to what I’ve outlined and you will start running the table instead of missing on the last few balls during your table run. If you wanna see how easy it really it, toss 3-4 balls on the table and run the table until you are
bored. When you can run 3-4 balls 9 out of 10 times, or 5-6 times in a row, your confidence builds. It starts seeming
too easy and that’s when you start missing. Always respect the last 3 shots like it was a brand new match. You are
most likely missing because you are trying too hard for shape, mechanical imperfections or mental unpreparedness.
Whichever it is you can fix that by just recording video of yourself on your phone running the table. Respect the last 3.
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You make some valid points. I took 5th last month in a 700 and under Fargo rated 9 ball event with over 50 players in it and rarely ran the racks from the break. But the other guys missed balls and I ducked more when not confident on getting out. Those tables are not as tight as mine. And they are 7 footers. It very often came down to last few balls.
I call this the dog factor. It's the biggest percentage you can play as long as you know what's in the water. That's how the big guns do it. It's a simple matter to scale this to your own level.
This could be hammered in stone! Don't do any unnecessary work, in particular don't do it with the cue ball. A great run out should look like a child could have made every shot.
Hu
shooter_Hans
Well-known member
I don’t think it’s an owner’s job to make their pockets tight to please pool players. Most will be glad there is a place to host or play at.
Very few pros versus the general public to please.
The tighter the pockets the tighter the profit margin.
While I agree that the last thing a room owner should do, is focus on making players happy. I do think the whole tight pockets stop people from play shtick over stated.
Besides... what's a "tight pocket"..?
Is it a pocket with a smaller point to point opening than BCA/WPA recommends? ...or one that rejects balls if not hit within that window..?
Most players, those who focus on league, being only better than a average bar rat. Measure tight on how tough it is to drop the ball. I'm willing to bet I could shrink all the pockets at my local room down to 4.5 from the gapping ~5+ it is now. Put the correct geometry on them, and nearly all players would thank me. Even though I shrank their target by at least .5"
I have a Tavern, not a Hall/Room. My League Captains ALL signed a paper asking us to tighten the Pro Cut pockets up a tad. That was 8-10 years ago, all 15 League Captains signed it. I debated it and the next time Josh came to recover the tables, he put a 1/16" facing on every rail reducing our corners to 4 3/8". Our Teams call it their "Home Field Advantage". I have not witnessed any revenue change and a Room, paying by the hour, I don't know how a length of game would affect revenue, an hour is an hour. Brian.
The negative effect isn't the hourly rate but rather the number of hours the tables are rented. The premise is, the tougher the tables, the less fun it is to play for the general public, therefore the tables won't be rented as frequently or for as long.
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
Reckon they're about 4, similar to the one below.
Just got back fromTaiwan/Thailand.
in TW every hall had 4.25 and two or three tables like this. 4.5s in bars (mostly Taipei, but also Yilin, Keelung and some other place I forgot).
Bangkok was 4.5s everywhere I went.