Tight pockets are NOT good for the game!

Well there's personal subjective preference and then what's smart for biz...

When I rebuilt my table I went with 4.25", but if I owned a pool room I wouldn't dream of anything smaller than 4.5". Maybe if I was loaded and the pool room was just a means to generate a net loss for a tax write off. The I might consider a handful of table of tight tables for the competitive player.
 
Tight pockets are dreadful for the game at the amateur level. Most amateurs have a very inflated opinion of their own skill. They claim 4.75 or even 5 inch pockets are too easy for them. Unfortunately they can't string any racks even on this equipment, so it's a patently false claim. Unless you can string racks, the game is NOT to easy for you. The more they whine about equipment and pockets, the less skilled they are IMO.

Put them on 4.25 inch pockets and they run maybe one rack in an evening. The lower skill levels have no chance even of that. You're supposed to be able to play power shots down the rail in pool. Many of the newer styles of tables with deep shelves, do not allow this. They detract from the beauty of the game, rather than add to it. Pool is about creative shots, interesting position play etc. Remove that, and what do you have? A watered down version of snooker.
 
The whole “this isn’t fun because I suck” is an American one, and probably a lower demographic one as well. Even in the US people who play golf have fun despite not being able to play under par. Trap-shooting 20/20 every time is difficult, and they don’t throw larger clays for beginners.

Things don’t need to be easy to be fun, and the ones who complain may not be the ones to cater too.

7 foot paid bar boxes screwed up pool in this country because it created weakened expectations for profit.
 
Don't know why this is an issue. Most pool halls don't have tight pockets like Matchroom events. The pros are so good, they even make tight pockets seem like it's not a huge challenge. And I still see pros taking plenty of calculated risks.

As for bar boxes, please. They have not destroyed the game in the U.S. Americans have more opportunities for recreation that any other country. That's the biggest reason fewer people play or play poorly. They don't spend the time learning.

In any case, Americans would be better players not if they had somewhat tighter pockets or bigger tables. They would be better players if they learned pattern play and how to move the ball around. Learn how to do those things on a barbox and you can play and pocket balls on any table.
 
Tight pockets are good for the game...
Halls should accommodate recreational players with 4.5's and competitive players, or those who want to play at a good standard, by emulating the conditions of the professional game (which needs standardization)
 
garczar said:
Wrong.
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Could be right, could be wrong. That's my honest opinion. I think it makes everyone happy, in both the recreational setting, and moves the game forward in a professional one. How many active professionals are here on this forum? I'd love to see a survey targeting both amateur and professional audience. I will assume professional players are happy with the current conditions given the abundance of signatures on MR roster...
 
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60inchcueguy said:
Tight pockets are overrated. We all have a maximum talent level that is attainable. Tight pockets cannot raise the natural talent we are born with. They can only frustrate us.
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This max talent level is a figment. Jocks are into aptitude not talent. That's a function of preparation.
 
Ghost of OBC…..I disagree…..it basically comes down to the difference in difficulty…..doesn’t matter if it’s golf or pool.
The pro circuit in golf plays much harder course conditions than the general public. Plus, the tee boxes the pros play
aren’t always around after the tournament because they play even further back than the ones on the course. If you are
a 20 plus handicap, you have no business playing the furthest back tee boxes. All you do is invite slow play. Well, you
shouldn’t play on a 9’ table with very tight pockets if you can’t a run a full rack, or say a minimum, 10 of 15 object balls.

I already conceded the general public should enjoy the game so bigger pockets make sense for them but I relish and also
dread concurrently the notion of a ring game with 5” CP and 5.5”SP. Gosh, there’s would be a lot of table runs and it
would get expensive. If you’re a strong player, the pocket size is irrelevant but it sure will rattle lesser skilled opponents.
The difficulty of a golf course is no different than the difficulty of smaller pockets and better players enjoy the challenge.

Remember that pool is game that’s played more between your ears before it gets played on the felt. Tight pockets will
discourage and frustrate a pool player when they don’t have the skills set to conquer the table. That’s just a pool fact.
So let’s get this straight……pool rooms need both types of pool tables……and Sierra Billiards where I am a member
has done this by dedicating four of the eight 9’ tables to have 4.25” CP & the other four have 4.5” CP….seems ideal.
 
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To each his own, of course. For a home table, it's up to the owner. However, whether tight pockets or larger, it seems to me that the same group of better players migrate to the top of tournament results. The cream rising to the top, if you will.

For a hall? Makes good biz sense to offer both.
 
pool rooms make their money off of a few things. food, drinks, music, and pool time.

any one of them that the average joe, who is the average customer, doesnt equate to being good or fun makes him stay less time, and come in less often.

and the time a person stays in the room the more he spends in most cases.

getting better by having harder equipment is not what your average customer is looking to do. he wants to have fun, and its more fun when he is playing well. and playing well means more balls are falling in.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Ghost of OBC…..I disagree…..it basically comes down to the difference in difficulty…..doesn’t matter if it’s golf or pool.
The pro circuit in golf plays much harder course conditions than the general public. Plus, the tee boxes the pros play
aren’t always around after the tournament because they play even further back than the ones on the course. If you are
a 20 plus handicap, you have no business playing the furthest back tee boxes. All you do is invite slow play. Well, you
shouldn’t play on a 9’ table with very tight pockets if you can’t a run a full rack, or say a minimum, 10 of 15 object balls.

I already conceded the general public should enjoy the game so bigger pockets make sense for them but I relish and also
dread concurrently the notion of a ring game with 5” CP and 5.5”SP. Gosh, there’s would be a lot of table runs and it
would get expensive. If you’re a strong player, the pocket size is irrelevant but it sure will rattle lesser skilled opponents.
The difficulty of a golf course is no different than the difficulty of smaller pockets and better players enjoy the challenge.

Remember that pool is game that’s played more between your ears before it gets played on the felt. Tight pockets will
discourage and frustrate a pool player when they don’t have the skills set to conquer the table. That’s just a pool fact.
So let’s get this straight……pool rooms need both types of pool tables……and Sierra Billiards where I am a member
has done this by dedicating four of the eight 9’ tables to have 4.25” CP & the other four have 4.5” CP….seems ideal.
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You are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that Joe Hacker plays on a course anything like the pros. I'm saying when golf tried to get Joe Hacker to accept 'objective' differences between the pros and amateurs, the amateurs revolted. There was a whole program to get amateurs to play with cups three feet across to speed up the game. It was soundly rejected. Likewise, the USGA and R and A are in the process of "rolling back" the golf ball. Every hacker is portioning out his golf balls to be done with the 'old' balls when the new rules take effect.

Regular pool players like regular golfers do demand to play the same equipment as the pros and that's the problem.
 
L.S. Dennis said:
What you say has merit, although I do think that tight pockets tend to make you focus a bit more when aiming.
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I think the idea that a ball anywhere on the table should be pot-able is weakening American pool players. Until we start juniors on Russian Pyramid tables we are always going to be playing catch-up.

,
 
Flakeandrun said:
Tight pockets are good for the game...
Halls should accommodate recreational players with 4.5's and competitive players, or those who want to play at a good standard, by emulating the conditions of the professional game (which needs standardization)
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My first home table was a Brunswick 'Viscount' (this was bare bones 9ft 3 piece slate home table that they produced back in the very early 60's) which had unbelievably huge pockets all around. The corner pockets were something like 5 1/4' pockets and side pockets you could put a basket ball in. I remember getting tired of such cavernous apertures so I bought a set of those spring loaded pocket liners and man was I in for a surprise. It without a doubt forced me to concentrate more on aiming and my rack running came to a grinding halt that's for sure. Definitely didn't hear that familiar 'pop' when the balls hit the back side of those pockets with those pocket liners. Quite a wake up call to say the least!
 
L.S. Dennis said:
My first home table was a Brunswick 'Viscount' (this was bare bones 9ft 3 piece slate home table that they produced back in the very early 60's) which had unbelievably huge pockets all around. The corner pockets were something like 5 1/4' pockets and side pockets you could put a basket ball in. I remember getting tired of such cavernous apertures so I bought a set of those spring loaded pocket liners and man was I in for a surprise. It without a doubt forced me to concentrate more on aiming and my rack running came to a grinding halt that's for sure. Definitely didn't hear that familiar 'pop' when the balls hit the back side of those pockets with those pocket liners. Quite a wake up call to say the least!
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I forgot to mention that my current house table is a GC3 with 4 7/8" pockets, still can't run out anymore though:(
 
jbart65 said:
In any case, Americans would be better players not if they had somewhat tighter pockets or bigger tables. They would be better players if they learned pattern play and how to move the ball around. Learn how to do those things on a barbox and you can play and pocket balls on any table
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Yes! If I can't make more than a couple of balls in a row, how can I learn to play patterns? If it's all I can do to get the ball in the hole, how will I learn to spin it. Pool becomes much more interesting when you can develop and execute strategy. If a player struggles to meet the minimum level of skill to pocket balls, he or she will never enjoy the game enough to devote the time and effort to become good.

I think challenging equipment should be available for this who have made the decision to dedicate themselves to the game but softer tables are not hurting the game.

Also, how many people here are actually stringing racks together consistently? I shoot plenty of pool and I don't see it happening at all.

From Fargorate:

600 Has run three-in-a-row multiple times and maybe four-in-a row a time or two. High Run in 14.1 of 50-60. There are generally around 30 players at this level per million population
500A good local league player. Runs out first time at the table in about 5% of the games. Close to the median of players in the FargoRate system

I don't think there are that many players that need tight pockets to challenge themselves.
 
tomatoshooter said:
Yes! If I can't make more than a couple of balls in a row, how can I learn to play patterns? If it's all I can do to get the ball in the hole, how will I learn to spin it. Pool becomes much more interesting when you can develop and execute strategy. If a player struggles to meet the minimum level of skill to pocket balls, he or she will never enjoy the game enough to devote the time and effort to become good.

I think challenging equipment should be available for this who have made the decision to dedicate themselves to the game but softer tables are not hurting the game.

Also, how many people here are actually stringing racks together consistently? I shoot plenty of pool and I don't see it happening at all.

From Fargorate:

600 Has run three-in-a-row multiple times and maybe four-in-a row a time or two. High Run in 14.1 of 50-60. There are generally around 30 players at this level per million population
500A good local league player. Runs out first time at the table in about 5% of the games. Close to the median of players in the FargoRate system

I don't think there are that many players that need tight pockets to challenge themselves.
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Agreed. The more I hear people in the pool hall whine about needing tighter pockets, the harder it gets to shut up. The fact is, I know these peoples games and they are by far, not able to run out regularly on ANY kind of pool table. Running 2 balls on a tight table should not be more prestigeous than running 2 racks on a 4.75 inch table, but somehow that's what these people think.

Most people in a pool hall are what I call "5 hangers". They can make 5 balls if they are well spread out and preferably close to the pockets, somewhat regularly. Now, they can do this on a tight table too, because it's not much harder to do. There is no tricky position or awkwardly placed balls and little need for big power. When they see players, better than themselves, struggle to get out from a (tricky) 5 ball out on the same table where they can put down the 5 hangers, they get the wrong idea about their own skill. On a table where a better player than the "5 hanger" player may struggle to get out, what happens is that the skill gap actually gets smaller between such a player and the 5 hanger, so results will be more random, not less. Usually the worse player will still lose, but they'll feel more involved, since they're not getting ran out on. Some of the better players power and knowledge gets eliminated due to certain shots no longer being viable, or shots that would be good on other tables staying up. This is especially magnified with deep shelf pockets, where a missed ball frequently gets left hanging in the pocket. After a while people will adjust to this and a skill gap may be reestablished, but not necessarily. Especially if the better player is a naturally more aggressive type. The skill gap will be pushed up the pool hierachy and may now exist between for instance the high 600 to low 700 players and those slightly below, rather than lower down. So there are few blowout matches until you get to this level.
 
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I agree with the premise of this thread.

Anyone whose Fargo is under 600 should probably be playing on 5" pockets until they get so good on that equipment that they no longer feel challenged. If you're stringing racks on a 5" pocket table, move to something tighter.

Tight pockets make the game less fun for the occasional player and it's causing pool to be less fun in many pool halls.
 
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