Tightening Gold Crown 2 Pockets

B

Bill_B

New member
I recently picked up a Gold Crown 2 with corner pockets at around 5” front opening width that I want to tighten to around 4 1/2”.

I’m hoping some table expert(s) can confirm or correct what I’ve gathered from various posts here regarding tightening pockets.

I understand the 2 most popular ways to tighten pockets are to:
1) Shim the pockets with 1/4” neoprene 60 shims. But, as I understand it, doing this reduces the front and rear pocket openings evenly causing the rear opening to be too small that thus causes balls to be unfairly rejected before they can reach the pocket shelf.
2) Remove the rubber on the rails, extend the subrails to tighten the opening, add new rubber (SuperSpeed K55 profile) and then to recut the pocket opening angle where the rear opening is now proportionally wider than the front so balls are not unfairly rejected before they get to the pocket shelf.

I checked and unfortunately to have a professional table mechanic extend the subrails is currently beyond my budget.

So, since the rubber is in good shape, I figured that I’d just shim now and properly tighten the pockets later.

But, the more I read, the more I’m convinced that this is a bad idea and will result in a disappointing table.

So, since I used to build furniture professionally and still have a full cabinet shop, I’ve decided to do the work.

So, my questions are:
1) Is poplar a good wood choice to extend, or is there a better choice?
2) Based on tightening the corner pockets from 5" to 4 1/2" should I add 1/4” of wood to each sub rail? Or, should I add a little more wood to more accurately create correct pocket opening width when I cut the new pocket opening angle?
3) Is 141 the new angle to cut for the pocket opening? If no, what is the new correct angle?
4) What should I use for facings and what thickness?
5) Should each side pocket subrail also be extended 1/4”?
6) What should the final side pocket opening angle be, or should it remain unchanged?
7) Is there any other basic info I should know?

Thanks in advance to all who respond!

Bill
 
I just completed installing new Artemis rails and tightening the pockets to 4.5" on my gold crown. It was very time comsuming and I spent many hours researching the process and technique. Below are all of the links and information that I compiled which should be everything that you need to know to do what you are trying to do.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=180635&highlight=rail+extentions&page=9

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=216410&highlight=trim+rail+extentions&page=3

http://www.muellers.com/Poplar-Wood-Rail-Liner,629.html

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=366917&highlight=protractor

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=347493&highlight=protractor&page=4

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=334314&highlight=rail+height&page=2

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=260808

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=60868&page=8


REPLACING CUSHIONS

1. Do not cut the rubber to size prior to installation. There should be some overhang at each end of the rail. Make sure you identify the Top Side
of the rubber so you are not installing it upside down. If viewing from the side, the top side of triangle shaped cushion has a very slight curvature while the bottom side is flat.

2. Before installing new cushion rubber lightly sand the rubber side that will be glued to remove any mold release residue. Clean the surface of the wood sub-rail
that the cushion will be glued to and remove any old glue residue. Laquer thinner or ketone workswell. Lightly sand the entire wood sub-rail (400 or higher grit on
a sanding block) to assure a smooth and clean surface.

3. Measurement - test fit the new cushion by placing it on the rail and measure the distance from the nose of the cushion down to the slate When using a regulation ball set (2.25" dia) the best performance is achieved when the nose to slate distance is 1 7/16". If the ball set is a not regulation then multiply 63% times the diameter of the ball and this will give you the correct nose height for the cushions.

4. Apply a coating of contact adhesive (3M-10 Scotchgrip recommended) to the rubber and wood surfaces to be bonded. Follow the mfg instructions on the can.

5. It's important to apply the rubber in a Straight line - aligning the top edge of the rubber with the top edge of the sub-rail. Do not stretch the rubber when installing but
make sure it is in contact with the wood the entire length of the rail.

6. Once the rubber is applied eyeball it lengthwise to make sure it is straight with no waves.

7. Allow sufficient glue drying time. Altho you can work faster it's suggested to allow the the rails to sit overnight to assure the glue has cured sufficiently.

8. Trim the excess rubber so that it is flush with the mitered and flat ends of the rail. You can use a sharp razor knife, linoleum knife or some use a fine hacksaw blade.
Dipping the blade in soapy water will make the cutting easier and prevent the blade from getting stuck or binding in the rubber.

9. Once the excess cushion is removed install the cushion facings. Again, coat the facing and the end of the rail/rubber with contact adhesive. Allow sufficient glue drying
time and then trim the excess facing rubber following the contour of the rail and cushion rubber. You may choose to put 1 or 2 staples/tacks thru the facing and into
the wood part of the rail to make sure the facing doesn't move when trimming. These can be left in.

Though I can't dispute the fact that rails molded from the factory to have K55 rail rubber installed on them isn't the right way to go, replacing K55 with K55 rubber, but I've ran into several technicians work that insist on trying to make K66 rail rubber work, thereby screwing up the rails and the play of the tables they've worked on.

SO, in the event someone is going to insist on installing K66 rail rubber on rails designed for K55, the way you'd do it is as follows.

A: After removing the old rail rubber, make sure you clean the bevel surface of the sub-rail real clean, by that I mean sand down any high spots left from the glue/rail rubber ect...

B: You're going to need a planer for this next step. In a jig mounted in the planer opening, plane down a piece of poplar wood to 1/8" thick by 1 1/4" wide by 48" long, in such a way that the top thickness of the wood maintains its 1/8" inch thickness, while the bottom thickness is reduced to 1/16" of an inch.

C: When finished, glue the pieces of wood to the face of the sub-rail bevel so that they in fact work as an adapter plate for the new K66 rail rubber. Cut the overhanging ends of the wood off to match the sub-rail profile, profile the adapter plate at the top and bottom to match the sub-rail, and you're done.

The purpose of the adapter plate is to make up for the 1/8" inch loss of rubber in the difference between K55(1 1/4") and K66(1 1/8") in order to maintain the right playing surface, and to lower the 21 degree bevel of the K55 rail bevel to the needed 18 degree bevel for K66 rail rubber placing the point of the cushion at 1 7/16" of an inch, and to bring the relief bevel at the bottom of the rail up flush with the bottom of the rail rubber.

Go ahead and reinstall the K66 rail rubber, and finish the rails as you normally would.

To go from K66 to K55 is a whole different story, I'm not even getting into that here on AZ.
_________________________________________________

Wow I just checked the BCAs non-pro specs and both WPA and BCA have made changes since I last checked a couple of years ago.

Pocket Openings- BCA: corner= 4 7/8" to 5 1/8", side= 5 3/8" to 5 5/8"
WPA: corner= 4 1/2" to 4 5/8", side= 5" to 5 1/8"

Pocket Angle- BCA: corner= 142 +/- 1 degrees, side= 103 +/- 2 degrees
WPA: corner 142 +/- 1 degrees, side= 104 =/- 1 degrees

Face Angle- 12-15 degrees for both organizations.

Face Thickness- BCA: no spec, WPA: 1/16" to 1/4" rubber

Setback- BCA: corner= 1 5/8" to 1 7/8", side= 0 to 3/8"
WPA: corner= 1" to 2 1/4", side= 0 to 3/8"

Your corner pockets are 4 7/16" with 3/16"ths neoprene facings, 141 degree miters, 15 degree down angles, pocket shelf supports 60% of the ball in the pocket as far back as it'll sit without falling in. Sides are 102 degree miters with a 15 degree down angle and should be 5" with 3/16"ths facings.

_____________________________________________________


The K55 is slightly larger than the K66. (More rubber = more bounce) It's easy to see the difference if you have both in your hands.
Both cushion's profiles are basically a triangle with a rounded hollow groove on the back where the cushion glues to the subrail. On the K55 cushion you'll notice that there is more cushion on one side of the hollow groove than the other where the K66 is symmetrical. The K55 profile is a couple of tenths of an inch larger in both dimensions.

The standard cushion profile for the old Brunswicks was the K55 (earlier called Monarch) and probably what you'll find when you take the cloth off your table, unless they've been replaced with something else. K55 is what I would put on because it has a little more rubber than the K66 and, as I said, more rubber - more bounce.

The most important dimension to remember is that the height of the point of the cushion should be 63 1/2 of the diameter of the ball. Using 2 1/4" balls that comes out to be 1 7/16". Or, if you like millimeters 36.3 mm. If the cushion's point is much higher than that it will slow your balls down (nobody likes slow balls). Much lower than that and everything that hits the rail will hop up in the air a little.

If you place K55 perfectly on some old Brunswick's (lining it up with the top of the subrail) it might be higher than 1 7/16 and it will be even higher using K66. If that's the case you'll want to lower the cushion a bit. Check this very carefully before you glue anything.

On my old table I had to cut an eighth of an inch off the bottom of the subrail, lowering the entire rial, to get the cushion to the perfect height while maintaining the distance of the points of opposing cushions. It may not be possible to be perfect with this but you might as well be as close as you can.

With a rail height of 1 7/16" you want the dimensions of the playing to be:

6 foot table: 33 x 66 inches
7 foot table: 38 x 76 inches
8 foot table: 44 x 88 inches
9 foot table: 50 x 100 inches
(a less common size is 46 x 92 which usually called a pro-8 or oversized 8)
 
Please see my responses inline with your previous post...


Bill_B said:
I recently picked up a Gold Crown 2 with corner pockets at around 5” front opening width that I want to tighten to around 4 1/2”.

I’m hoping some table expert(s) can confirm or correct what I’ve gathered from various posts here regarding tightening pockets.

I understand the 2 most popular ways to tighten pockets are to:
1) Shim the pockets with 1/4” neoprene 60 shims. But, as I understand it, doing this reduces the front and rear pocket openings evenly causing the rear opening to be too small that thus causes balls to be unfairly rejected before they can reach the pocket shelf.
2) Remove the rubber on the rails, extend the subrails to tighten the opening, add new rubber (SuperSpeed K55 profile) and then to recut the pocket opening angle where the rear opening is now proportionally wider than the front so balls are not unfairly rejected before they get to the pocket shelf.

I checked and unfortunately to have a professional table mechanic extend the subrails is currently beyond my budget.

So, since the rubber is in good shape, I figured that I’d just shim now and properly tighten the pockets later.

But, the more I read, the more I’m convinced that this is a bad idea and will result in a disappointing table.

So, since I used to build furniture professionally and still have a full cabinet shop, I’ve decided to do the work.

So, my questions are:
1) Is poplar a good wood choice to extend, or is there a better choice?

- The rails are made of poplar, so using the same material to extend the subrails is a fine choice.

2) Based on tightening the corner pockets from 5" to 4 1/2" should I add 1/4” of wood to each sub rail? Or, should I add a little more wood to more accurately create correct pocket opening width when I cut the new pocket opening angle?

-You have a very old table. It is likely that the wood at the pocket openings (area behind the facings) is all beat up and/or chewed out. If you are going to go through the trouble of extending your subrails, you might as well cut out the bad sections of wood, and add in enough to correct the damaged portions.

3) Is 141 the new angle to cut for the pocket opening? If no, what is the new correct angle?

- This is mostly a matter of opinion. 141 degrees, with a 15 degree vertical angle, is standard for a Diamond table, which has deep shelves.. Brunswick tables have a shallower shelf, making it generally more preferable to have a bit tougher playing pocket. Again, this is all a matter of opinion. If you want the pocket to play very forgiving, go with 141 degrees, with a bigger vertical angle (14-15 degrees). If you want it to be a little less forgiving, you might want to try 142 degrees, with a 13 degree vertical angle. Don't discount the vertical angle. It makes a big difference in the way the pockets play.

4) What should I use for facings and what thickness?

- You should use neoprene rubber, no thicker than 1/4".

5) Should each side pocket subrail also be extended 1/4”?

- The side pocket openings are traditionally 1/2" wider than the corners. For 4 1/2" corners, you'll want 5" sides. To accomplish this, you will have to add material. How much material, will depend on how beat up your subrails are. (see my response for question 2)

6) What should the final side pocket opening angle be, or should it remain unchanged?

- Side pocket angle is generally 103-104 degrees, with the same vertical angle as the corner pockets. (See my response to question 3)

7) Is there any other basic info I should know?

- Since you are extending the length of the subrails, you'll also need longer featherstrips.

Thanks in advance to all who respond!

Bill
Click to expand...
 
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I did not see this mentioned here yet, but a GCII should have Monarch Superspeed cushions to which there is no matching current cushion profile. It would probably be a good idea to modify the subrails for a modern cushion profile. When I had my pockets tightened my subrails were modified for Artemis Intercontinental 66 (K55 profile). These are the current Blue Logo Diamond specs I believe. It sounds like from what I understand the real important measurement for cushions besides nose height is the height at which the glued side is mounted at.
 
fastone371 said:
I did not see this mentioned here yet, but a GCII should have Monarch Superspeed cushions to which there is no matching current cushion profile. It would probably be a good idea to modify the subrails for a modern cushion profile. When I had my pockets tightened my subrails were modified for Artemis Intercontinental 66 (K55 profile). These are the current Blue Logo Diamond specs I believe. It sounds like from what I understand the real important measurement for cushions besides nose height is the height at which the glued side is mounted at.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind, the reason Bill chose to do this work himself is to save cost. Cutting the subrail bevel to the correct angle is not exactly a DIY project. Performing the work correctly requires the use of specially made tooling. You can't just throw the rails through a table saw, and expect desirable results.

The proper way to cut the subrail bevel is with the rail bolted down, in the same fashion that it would be mounted to the table. You should begin by planing the top surface of the subrail, so that the height is consistently 1 11/16" (most Gold Crown subrails have a wave to them, and are of inconsistent height). From there, you can cut the bevel angle for the cushion to mount to, and the relief bevel on the bottom side.

You can get away with mounting K55 cushions on your Gold Crown II rails, without modifying the subrail angles. Just understand that it will bank a little faster, and the field of play will no longer be a 2:1 ratio of 50" x 100". Instead, your field of play will be 49 3/4" x 99 3/4".
 
bradsh98 said:
Keep in mind, the reason Bill chose to do this work himself is to save cost. Cutting the subrail bevel to the correct angle is not exactly a DIY project. Performing the work correctly requires the use of specially made tooling. You can't just throw the rails through a table saw, and expect desirable results.

The proper way to cut the subrail bevel is with the rail bolted down, in the same fashion that it would be mounted to the table. You should begin by planing the top surface of the subrail, so that the height is consistently 1 11/16" (most Gold Crown subrails have a wave to them, and are of inconsistent height). From there, you can cut the bevel angle for the cushion to mount to, and the relief bevel on the bottom side.

You can get away with mounting K55 cushions on your Gold Crown II rails, without modifying the subrail angles. Just understand that it will bank a little faster, and the field of play will no longer be a 2:1 ratio of 50" x 100". Instead, your field of play will be 49 3/4" x 99 3/4".
Click to expand...


Just curious why can't a table saw be used to cut the subrail bevel?
 
Yeah, I do not know what may be beyond his capabilities. I personally would not install the incorrect cushions, I battled myself with that on my table. I am really glad I chose to go with subrail modification. I think someone would be better off to wait to modify their table until they could afford to do it the right way, otherwise its kind of like spending good money after bad money.
 
kickshotkid said:
Just curious why can't a table saw be used to cut the subrail bevel?
Click to expand...


It can, but you shouldn't expect to see desirable results...

These rails are very old. As such, they are never straight and true. When you cut the bevel with a table saw, you can't account for a rail that is warped or twisted in any way, nor can you account for a variation in thickness. Because of this, when you bolt the rail back down on the table, there could be a wave or variance in the nose height of the cushion. Or, the nose could have a bow to it. The only way that I could see using a table saw, is if you were to bolt the rails down to a rigid block (something that won't flex under tension from the rail), and run the whole assembly through the saw.

In my opinion, unless you can go about it the right way, there isn't much point in attempting the modification. If you make a mistake, you have just significantly impacted the value of your table.

However, subrail extensions are a much easier task to take on, and can be easily modified at a later time.

In regards to the subrail angle modification, you have to keep in mind that there are only a few mechanics across the country that even perform the work. It is still a relatively new thing that guys have begun doing, to improve the play of the older Gold Crown tables. The majority of mechanics just replace the Monarch cushions with modern day K55 cushions. However, there are some mechanics that use K66 cushions, mounted lower on the subrail (to maintain the correct nose height). Either way plays fine. Granted, neither way plays perfect, but not bad enough to raise a fuss over.
 
Sometimes I wonder if WPA and BCA listen to players before they come up with their specs.
 
bradsh98 said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you please explain?
Click to expand...

Just what it sounds like....everyone wants to give info out that they know nothing other than to get that info from Glen and then pass it all on the forum as to show look how smart I am.
The guy said he has a full wood shop......and did wood work....but can't look at apiece of wood and make another and install it.
Do any of you guys see cue makers give out how they make cues....I do rail work for a living....you guys want to get answers so you can do the same thing Glen did....back before he got banned.
I mean guys are writing book reports on the thread......I know you guys do tables.....but you do nothing on rails I do......so you don't mind giving out info Glen gave you.
You mean to tell me the guy can't look up the past posts you guys even high lighted them to go to and learn.
Glen thought he knew how to do rails back when he was showing the few that offer this work.....he did know then and they don't know now....but they still get rails to work on.....and again I get the calls about how bad they are.
Do we really have to go through this shit again.....when does it end.
Ask a cue make how to work on your cue....then let me know how that works out for you.
Mark Gregory
 
perfectpocketz said:
Just what it sounds like....everyone wants to give info out that they know nothing other than to get that info from Glen and then pass it all on the forum as to show look how smart I am.
The guy said he has a full wood shop......and did wood work....but can't look at apiece of wood and make another and install it.
Do any of you guys see cue makers give out how they make cues....I do rail work for a living....you guys want to get answers so you can do the same thing Glen did....back before he got banned.
I mean guys are writing book reports on the thread......I know you guys do tables.....but you do nothing on rails I do......so you don't mind giving out info Glen gave you.
You mean to tell me the guy can't look up the past posts you guys even high lighted them to go to and learn.
Glen thought he knew how to do rails back when he was showing the few that offer this work.....he did know then and they don't know now....but they still get rails to work on.....and again I get the calls about how bad they are.
Do we really have to go through this shit again.....when does it end.
Ask a cue make how to work on your cue....then let me know how that works out for you.
Mark Gregory
Click to expand...

I can appreciate your opinion on the matter. In fact, if you read my responses, you'll see that I support your cause. Note that I suggested that modifying subrail angles is not a DIY job. Even though I have created my own tooling, and have the capabilities of doing it, it is still a job that I will only perform for a select few customers. I would much rather support the guy that makes his living doing it.
 
bradsh98 said:
I can appreciate your opinion on the matter. In fact, if you read my responses, you'll see that I support your cause. Note that I suggested that modifying subrail angles is not a DIY job. Even though I have created my own tooling, and have the capabilities of doing it, it is still a job that I will only perform for a select few customers. I would much rather support the guy that makes his living doing it.
Click to expand...

I understand....and also understand Glens been telling you how to do rails.
I have no problem with that.....cause I know how many years it took me to get it right...and how much money it took me to waste learning and teaching myself.
Glen....never knew how to do rails....and did them wrong for years....and showed a few the wrong way.....Glen now is doing the rails the right way.....but it took me 3 years to convince him to change.
Glen is Glen....and he's never going to give credit without putting him name in it.
There's like 4 threads on here asking about how to make pockets smaller...how long you think it took that guy to wright that book answering everything but how to hold your mouth to fix your rails. This talk to a mechanic has gone to I know the answer....pick me...lol
Everyone has to learn....and guys have to pass shit on....I get it.....and I have shown a few myself.
But you have to put your time in.....pick things up by making mistakes.....and talking with people you meet..
So many guys get jobs on tables....but really have no clue.....rails have really been a big trouble maker on this site......if I was to post pics of the rails people have sent me......on guys rail work on this site.....you wouldn't believe the jobs.....and I gave my word I would ever post them.....or I would have already posted years ago.
Mark Gregory
 
perfectpocketz said:
Just what it sounds like....everyone wants to give info out that they know nothing other than to get that info from Glen and then pass it all on the forum as to show look how smart I am.
The guy said he has a full wood shop......and did wood work....but can't look at apiece of wood and make another and install it.
Do any of you guys see cue makers give out how they make cues....I do rail work for a living....you guys want to get answers so you can do the same thing Glen did....back before he got banned.
I mean guys are writing book reports on the thread......I know you guys do tables.....but you do nothing on rails I do......so you don't mind giving out info Glen gave you.
You mean to tell me the guy can't look up the past posts you guys even high lighted them to go to and learn.
Glen thought he knew how to do rails back when he was showing the few that offer this work.....he did know then and they don't know now....but they still get rails to work on.....and again I get the calls about how bad they are.
Do we really have to go through this shit again.....when does it end.
Ask a cue make how to work on your cue....then let me know how that works out for you.
Mark Gregory
Click to expand...

Actually, I have yet to meet a cuemaker that isn't willing to help someone learn, I frequent this forum and the cuemakers forum and the cuemakers share way more info on there forum plus multiple have instructional videos on every part of cue repair and building and books. Car mechanics tell me how to build cars too doesn't mean I'm gonna go mess up cars or put them out of business.
 
kickshotkid said:
Actually, I have yet to meet a cuemaker that isn't willing to help someone learn, I frequent this forum and the cuemakers forum and the cuemakers share way more info on there forum plus multiple have instructional videos on every part of cue repair and building and books. Car mechanics tell me how to build cars too doesn't mean I'm gonna go mess up cars or put them out of business.
Click to expand...

If you don't get...I can't explain it to you.
And I'm not interested in showing anyone ever again.
Glen already regrets showing people.....just call him and ask him...then you'll understand the whys and why nots.
Mark Gregory
 
perfectpocketz said:
If you don't get...I can't explain it to you.
And I'm not interested in showing anyone ever again.
Glen already regrets showing people.....just call him and ask him...then you'll understand the whys and why nots.
Mark Gregory
Click to expand...

I really don't understand Mark Forums are for sharing information that's the single reason they were invented. But I will ask Glen when he gets here to do my table lol(insert joke here).
 
perfectpocketz said:
Wow....everyone is Glen.....LMAO
Click to expand...

The easy answer would be send them to Mark. I just tell guys my experience with GCIs & GCIIs. If you need to replace the Monarchs, have the subrails modified to fit a current cushion profile. How or where they get to that point is not my concern, I am not a table mechanic. What sounds like a bad idea to me are real thick facings and a cushion profile that does not fit your table. I personally wanted a table that played somewhat true to the diamond system, to me it seems like you will never get there if your table is not twice as long as it is wide. I do not regret 1 penny of the money I spent having a current cushion profile installed on my table. Right or wrong I do know that my table plays similar to the 9' Diamonds, which to me isnt the worst thing since most of the tournaments or leagues I play on are played on Diamonds. The few times I play on a Valley I know I will not have a problem pocketing balls.:thumbup: No GCs in my neighborhood to play on though, at least tables that are not privately owned.:angry:
 
kickshotkid said:
I really don't understand Mark Forums are for sharing information that's the single reason they were invented. But I will ask Glen when he gets here to do my table lol(insert joke here).
Click to expand...

Pat, I sent you a PM, call me, I lost your phone number when I had to use the master reset to unlock my phone.

Glen
 
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