Tilting head and aiming out of one eye

Spimp13

O8 Specialist
Silver Member
As a disclosure I did not put this in the aiming thread section as I felt it was more of a generic question on what players do. It is not meant to be a debate on what is perceived as being correct, or incorrect on aiming itself and methods associated with it.

A buddy of mine pointed out to which I started paying attention, that my wife tilts her head (forward a bit) and aims purely out of her left eye while shooting. I think that this creates other fundamental issues whether it be her stance, overall stroke from set to finish, or even just the actual aiming at the correct spot to shoot on the object ball.

My question is does anyone else shoot like this with no issues or do you find issues in your stroke that are created due to how you look down the cue this way? I am looking for a bit of discussion on this as IF (and its a huge IF) I ever decided I wanted to teach her, that this could be a road block on other aspects of the stroke.

I don't think that everyone should shoot the same way obviously, but would like opinions on what people think who do this, or have seen this before. Thanks
Matt
 
Does she aim with her left eye directly over and in line with her cue?

Take a picture.:thumbup:
 
Does she aim with her left eye directly over and in line with her cue?

Take a picture.:thumbup:

I believe that is exactly it which requires her to tilt her head in such a way for the left eye to do this. I don't think she wants me to take a picture of this to post on here lol...just looking to generate discussion about it in terms of right/wrong, other possible fundamental or even aiming issues with just using one eye instead of both etc....
 
Lots of good players do this - perhaps most. Watch Earl Strickland, he seems to aim with his right eye directly over the stick, like the stick is an arrow he's pulling back in a bow to the right of his chin. Maybe your wife could be the one teaching. ;)
 
Maybe your wife could be the one teaching. ;)

Now you are just being silly, my wife has the 5 ball for life :grin:

Still looking for other opinions related to fundamental issues or lack of issues due to shooting this way from AZers who shoot like this.
 
Eyes and Vision in Pool and Billiards
... various concepts and techniques for pool shot sighting and visual alignment.

Dr. Dave's answers to frequently-asked questions (FAQs),
mostly from the BD CCB and AZB discussion forums
maintained for the book: The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards,
the DVD series: The Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots (VEPS) and
The Video Encyclopedia of Pool Practice (VEPP), the Billiard University (BU),
and the monthly Billiards Digest "Illustrated Principles" instructional articless


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depth perception
dominant eye
eye pattern "best practices"
finding the center of the cue ball
quiet eyes
sighting
vision center
which ball to look at last

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depth perception

Is depth perception important in aiming?

Assuming you have already visualized the required impact line and ghost ball target (see NV 3.1 and NV 3.2), aligning the cue stick with the aiming line direction does not require depth perception. (In fact, the parallax created by binocular vision, even with a dominant eye, can make straight-line sighting difficult.) Now, some people might adjust their aim while in their stance based on their perception of the "angle of the shot," impact line, contact point, and/or ghost ball target. In that case, depth perception might be helpful.

A low stance helps one better align the cue with the desired aiming line, without requiring too much of a shift in eye (or head) motion between the CB contact point the aiming target, while fine tuning and verifying one's aim.

For more info, see dominant eye.

Interesting, the following research study showed no correlation between depth-perception ability (or other vision attributes) and pool-playing performance: "Perceptual-Motor Characteristics of Elite Performers in Aiming Sports" by Abernethy and Neal (1992).



from Qtec:

The difference between short and long bridge is that the EYES are further away from the QB when you play with a longer bridge. This means that when you focus on the QB or OB, you will see more of the shaft [ie. a longer line ] and therefore its easier to line up the cue on the line on the shot.


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dominant eye

Is one's dominant eye important in aiming?

This is debatable, and it might vary quite a bit from one person to the next. Now, head and eye position relative to the cue can be important in perceiving the desired tip contact point on the cue ball, especially if the cue tip is not close to the cue ball when lining up a shot. For illustrations and more information, see “Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment” (BD, July, 2011).

3D visual perception, applied to aiming in pool, is a complicated topic that is certainly not fully understood. It is difficult to offer simple eye alignment advice (or a "formula") that will work for all people (e.g., always align your dominant eye over the cue or with the edge of the CB).

The most important advice on this issue is find the head position and sighting technique that helps create the most accurate cue tip contact point and aiming line (for a given individual). See the vision center resource page for drills and information on how to find the "vision center" head position. A person's "vision center" isn't necessarily related to which eye might be dominant or not. Regardless of where you place your head to aim and sight a shot, the most important thing is to be as consistent as possible (e.g., with a purposeful pre-shot routine), so the "sight picture" is always the same for the same type of shot.

Wikipedia has a good summaries and references dealing with dominant eye (including several methods for testing dominance) and related topics here:

ocular dominance
binocular vision

Here's a good article that makes an argument that eye dominance is not very important in pool: "Dominant Myth?" by Bob Fancher.

The following research study also showed no correlation between ocular dominance (or other vision attributes) and pool-playing performance: "Perceptual-Motor Characteristics of Elite Performers in Aiming Sports" by Abernethy and Neal (1992).

from RSB_FAQ:

For most people, one eye is much more dominant in seeing alignments than the other. Typically, right-handers are right-eyed, and vice versa. About 5% are "cross-dominant" (e.g., right-handed and left-eyed) and some are "ambi-ocular" (no dominant eye). To aim and sight well, it helps to locate your dominant eye directly over your cue. For cross-dominants, this may call for some adjustments in stance or neck/head angles. For ambi's, the stick will be under some spot between the eyes.

Here's how to test yourself: Hold your thumb up at arm's length, visually blocking some distant object (for example, a clock or a lamp). Don't focus on your thumb; focus on the distant object. You'll see a ghost of your thumb, since your dominant eye will be in line with both your thumb and the distant object, while your non-dominant eye will be seeing past your thumb, directly toward the distant object. With one eye seeing the thumb and the other not, you get a ghost. The ghost is centered on the distant object because your dominant eye is the one that tells you what's lined up with what.

So, when you close your non-dominant eye, the thumb becomes solid instead of ghostly, since the dominant eye is looking directly at the thumb. When you close your dominant eye, the thumb appears to jump to the side because the dominant eye (that was making the thumb line up with the distant object) is not in use.

Stroke into a mirror to see where your dominance spot is, relative to your shaft. It "should" be directly over the shaft. If it's not, but you're not having difficulty aiming or sinking balls, don't worry about it.

from henho:

... there is plenty of research on eye dominance in Medline or Pubmed, a couple of thousand articles to be exact....just one for example: A new interocular suppression technique for measuring sensory eye dominance.
Yang E, Blake R, McDonald JE.Invest Ophthalmol Vis Sci. 2009 Jul 23. PMID: 19628736

Each eye supplies information to the brain differently. The dominant eye is used to fixate on objects. If you look at a point, the fixation of the dominant eye will fall on the center of the point while the non-dominant eye will fall slightly off-center. By comparing the difference between the images supplied by each eye the brain is able calculate depth information in a scene. The degree to which any eye is dominant varies from person to person as well.

In scenarios where estimating depth is important, the functioning of both eyes in tandem is vital. I don't recommend skiing with an eyepatch any more than driving. However, in scenarios where determining a straight line between two points is needed, using the dominant eye confers an advantage over using both eyes. When shooting a gun, you want to align the sight of the gun with a target. If you kept both eyes open while sighting down the barrel of the gun, when you looked at the sight you would see two targets, and when you focused on the target you would see two sights. In this scenario, the depth information your brain is supplying you is not helpful in aligning the target and sight, and it is easier to sight with one eye.

Pool is an interesting scenario in that it requires good depth perception to estimate the line of sight, generally done while standing up, and in addition requires accurately lining up the cue ball with the contact point on the object ball. If you adopt a high stance and hold the cue under both eyes, you have the best depth judgment, which is needed to estimate the speed and direction of the hit. If you adopt a low stance and use your dominant eye, you have the best ability to line up the cueball and object ball. Most people go somewhere in between, where they can line up the balls while still having a general view of the table to guide the speed of their stroke.

This seems to come into play in the nature of various cue games. In three-cushion billiards players generally adopt a more erect stance that provides a good, continuous 3-d view of the table, allowing them to accurately predict the reaction of the balls. In snooker, the accuracy requirement that smaller balls present requires players to adopt a low stance sighting down the cue. In this game moreso than in billiards, players must first estimate what will happen on the shot and determine the line of sight, then remember the layout of the table when they are down on the shot since they don't have a good view of the balls.

from Billy_Bob:

Here is more reading about the dominant eye...

Ken Tewksbury, Master Instructor (See #6)...
http://www.tableskills.com/article-kt2.php

Robert Byrne: "If you are having trouble pocketing balls, it may be that you aren't bending over far enough and aiming the cue like a rifle with your dominant eye."
http://www.byrne.org/pool/tips/08-1998.html

Says Buddy Hall wrote good article on this: Billiards Digest in June 2001...
http://www.ez-shot-ghost-ball.com/dominant_eye.html

By Don 'The Master' Rose, BCA Advanced Instructor...
http://www.azbilliards.com/donrose/lesson4.html
 
I think LAMas nailed it with the good old copy and paste. Dr Daves site is extremely informative.

If your wife is finding center ball with the stance and technique she using then she should carry on using it. I play with neither eye over my cue, and my head square on to the line of the shot but I can easily play with either right or left eye over the cue and my head tilted in either direction. Problem is I can't find center ball if I do this because what I perceive to be center is infact anywhere upto a tip and a half outside. So it makes sense to position my head in a way that what I think is center ball, actually is.
 
I started to tilt my head so that my left eye is over the cue.

For the longest time I didn't do that, and if I tried to hit center ball, I would always put 1/2 tip of right english on the ball. I'm assuming I just learned to compensate over the years, because while I'm not great, I don't suck.

Now that I started having my left eye directly over the cue, I'm hitting them a lot better.
 
Now you are just being silly, my wife has the 5 ball for life :grin:

Still looking for other opinions related to fundamental issues or lack of issues due to shooting this way from AZers who shoot like this.

Not only does she need the 5, she will likely never run more than 526 balls
since she aims the same way Mosconi did.

I'm with BRussel - she should be teaching you.

FWIW - you are actually talking about SIGHTING, not aiming.

Dale(who aims out of one eye)
 
I was born with an eye condition that causes me to see double. As in, all the time. There are only 2 ways I can combat this. Either tilt my head somewhat extremely to the right.......or close one eye.

When I was young, I thought everyone could see double. It was only when I went to the eye doctor around 5-7 years old that I discovered that I had a problem. I'm 39 now, btw, so this was back in the late 70's to very early 80's. No amount of therapy did me any good.

I'm naturally a right-handed person, with a quick tendency to learn to be ambidextrous at many tasks. However, I picked up a pool cue (and gun) and shot left-handed from Day 1. Being young and still strong eyes, I didn't have much of a problem, really.

Even in my early 20's, it wasn't so bad when I shot pool. Eventually, life happened. Scrapped college in my senior year. Went to the working world. Got married. Pool disappeared in my life.

Fast forward nearly 15 years, and being single with no kids, I got back into pool in April 2011. Hadn't played 5 games total, since about 1996. I quickly realized that I couldn't shoot left-handed without getting down and seeing 32 balls in a game of 8-ball. Now, THAT sux. No amount of head tilting in my pool stance would fix the problem. I quickly learned to close one eye, which got me back to seeing single vision with all objects.

However, as far as my eye condition goes, my right eye is the "weak" one. It causes the double-vision issues. But, I don't really have the strength to close that right eye by itself. I can close the left one much easier.

So, I've adapted. I shoot left-handed. I close my "strong" left eye. I shoot with only my right "weak" eye. However, after over a year of thinking that I was left eye dominant and being forced to do things "backwards" (which was always a nagging shot to my confidence level), I worked with Geno Albrecht in Tunica last year. It took us a while, but we figured out that being a one-eyed pool player isn't so bad. I only have information from one eye going to the brain. If I can get that right eye over the cue in the correct spot, I can shoot very well. I just need to learn consistency in my PSR, stance and eye alignment, because head position is very critical for me.

Anyway, it CAN be done. I'm not a shortstop, but I think in another 5 years, I could be. I continue to learn and to shake off the rust of a 15 year lay-off. Not to mention, I had always played bar rules and now I play by BCA rules, which is an adjustment.

I'm a decent player, having improved a significant amount in the past 2 years and while I still need to iron out my stroke a bit.......head/eye alignment continue to be the key for me to shoot well.

If you have any questions for me, go for it. Not sure what help I can be, but just letting you know that your friend isn't the only one out there.

BTW, if I switch over to shooting right-handed, I can see crystal clear with only single images. It's the damnedest thing. It all has to do with head position. But, since I've geared myself as a lefty pool player, it's not as comfy as my normal way. But, if I take my time, I can still shoot pretty well as a righty. I've actually ran a 2-pack from both sides of the plate, which isn't that bad.

I've promised myself that if I ever do "make it" in the pool world, get on Accu-Stats and interviewed, I'm going to tell the world that people with vision problems can still succeed, if they figure out a work-around and want it bad enough.

And I'll also tell the world that you can shoot perfectly well looking at the CB last. Because I do. :)
 
Not only does she need the 5, she will likely never run more than 526 balls
since she aims the same way Mosconi did.

I'm with BRussel - she should be teaching you.

FWIW - you are actually talking about SIGHTING, not aiming.

Dale(who aims out of one eye)

Now now, easy boys...I am allowed to gig my own wife. I'm not dogging her for how she sites and/or aims, I am just curious on input on others that shoot like this if they have any other issues with fundamentals.

As for her teaching me...well lol...not going to get into who should be teaching who the game of pool. Have a great rest of the evening. I will read over the long post above with the connected material. Thanks guys.
 
As a disclosure I did not put this in the aiming thread section as I felt it was more of a generic question on what players do. It is not meant to be a debate on what is perceived as being correct, or incorrect on aiming itself and methods associated with it.

A buddy of mine pointed out to which I started paying attention, that my wife tilts her head (forward a bit) and aims purely out of her left eye while shooting. I think that this creates other fundamental issues whether it be her stance, overall stroke from set to finish, or even just the actual aiming at the correct spot to shoot on the object ball.

My question is does anyone else shoot like this with no issues or do you find issues in your stroke that are created due to how you look down the cue this way? I am looking for a bit of discussion on this as IF (and its a huge IF) I ever decided I wanted to teach her, that this could be a road block on other aspects of the stroke.

I don't think that everyone should shoot the same way obviously, but would like opinions on what people think who do this, or have seen this before. Thanks
Matt

I have seen right hand players who are left eye dominant tilt their heads or move their head over more to the left...I have also seen some shoot with their right eye closed while tilting and/or moving to the left.
 
Now now, easy boys...I am allowed to gig my own wife. I'm not dogging her for how she sites and/or aims, I am just curious on input on others that shoot like this if they have any other issues with fundamentals.

As for her teaching me...well lol...not going to get into who should be teaching who the game of pool. Have a great rest of the evening. I will read over the long post above with the connected material. Thanks guys.

Was I too subtle??

The truth is, your wife does not have an issue with fundamentals.
IMHO - being cross dominant - which she is, usually is an advantage
in pool.

Dale
 
Atwell does that...right handed, left eye dominant. Last time I watched him play, he did okay.
 
Was I too subtle??

The truth is, your wife does not have an issue with fundamentals.
IMHO - being cross dominant - which she is, usually is an advantage
in pool.

Dale

Unfortunately Dale I am going to have to disagree with this statement. Now she may not have an issue with what this topic/thread is about, but there are multiple fundamental issues she has that I could go into invidually...but this isn't meant to be a teaching her thread...from what her eyes do to the set, mini strokes, finish etc...I could go on. I have had lessons on fundamentals (to which mine were horrible to begin with) with Randy G, so I have a pretty good idea on what to look for.
 
I have seen right hand players who are left eye dominant tilt their heads or move their head over more to the left...I have also seen some shoot with their right eye closed while tilting and/or moving to the left.

Thanks for the post. When I watch people shoot how the head is tilted or not tilted was one of the last things I noticed. I notice more the stroke/stance sort of things. I will have to look at this more now that I see what she does.
 
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