Time to shoot..what is your focal point?

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
Normally I am all over what you have to say concerning playing pool. This time I have to disagree.

IMHO, one should be looking at the object ball last...

When you are looking at the object ball last, the eyes are sending their final observance of the position of the OB, the contact point on the OB and any other periphery information that it takes in such as the position of the other object balls. This final observance is the last piece of solid information that the brain needs to perform the precise muscle movement needed to pot the ball.

This final observance may also send information to the brain that says, "I've picked the wrong contact point, wrong spot, I've aligned incorrectly for making the shot or making shape etc", and at which time (sometimes) the brain sends last minute instructions to the muscles and body to "swipe" at the cue ball to correct the error because it knows as you are delivering the cue tip, thing are not going to come out as planned.


You are right about many other things such as focusing on NOT SWIPING but I think you learn the most about a shot by simply, NOT MOVING. This allows the eyes to record what has taken place, such as where you actually made contact with the object ball, whether you swiped the cue ball by trying to correct the error in alignment or not etc and then send the information for the main CPU for further evaluation.

If the last piece of information that you are sending the brain is where your cue tip is placed and where the cue ball is located, you are sending the least important information last. As to speed control, I believe that the eyes when looking at a broader field of vision are far more capable of superior speed control than if looking at such a finite area as on the cue ball.

FTR, I have tried many things including looking at the cue ball last and for me the last look is always the object ball unless jacked up, jumping or masse(ing).

Isn't BHE swiping the cue ball? In other words, the cue shaft does not go in the same line as your aiming line, correct? How do you learn from this?


Like I always tell everyone, it is up to each person to work out their own salvation but I'm still open to listening to your discussion and learning.

Warm Regards Mate,
JoeyA

Hi Joey,
You raised some good points....but I have responses of course

Certainly what you describe is what almost all pro-players do. Yes, if the head and body is still, the player can actually observe whether or not they swiped slightly to make a shot, and adjust accordingly.

But it's my belief that this methodology is problematic, because much of the time players do not pick up on how they swiped. Especially beginners, and so, they do not recognize shots they make as having been aligned slightly off and when they miss, they tend to assume the fault is in their cuing, rather than in their bridge positioning (alignment).

I think the no.1 error of all players is inaccurate bridge positioning, not bad cuing. To me, on most occassions, bad cuing is more a symptom than a cause.

By looking at the CB and relying on accurate pre-alignment, a player can quickly learn a lot about his stroke and alignment. But if they don't know much about how to align with english and various speeds, they still could be confused.

Even most pros do not know how much difference there will be in throw between a medium speed rolling shot, a power draw, a touch of IE slow and a power max OE shot, let alone the myriad alternatives in between.

Hence, they are often not really sure how they should align each of these shots. Instead, they rely a lot of intuitive feel, and often part of the adjustment is done during the stroke phase.

But if a player knows these variables well, then complete pre-alignment is possible on every shot. I'm not saying that it is easy, but it is an alternative system, and something that I am finding can work quite successfully. I'm just putting it out there for consideration. As to do it well, a player needs significant knowledge and practice to develop it.

Regarding BHE, no, it's not swiping the ball, in fact, much of the reason I have change to pre-alignment method is because it is crucial to the application of BHE.

For example, with BHE, I line up the pot (pre-align) before I pivot the cue. Looking at the OB will not help me one iota after I have pivoted, so to play BHE effectively, I must pre-align very accurately, and pre-align according to the expected throw that the English will exert.

Hope that clarifies it a little. I am working on a book and video to explain it all in much more detail, but that will take a while to produce.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[JoeyA]

For example, with BHE, I line up the pot (pre-align) before I pivot the cue. Looking at the OB will not help me one iota after I have pivoted, so to play BHE effectively, I must pre-align very accurately, and pre-align according to the expected throw that the English will exert.

Hope that clarifies it a little. I am working on a book and video to explain it all in much more detail, but that will take a while to produce.

Cheers,
Colin

Colin,
Make sure you autograph my copy and put me first on your list of buyers.

Thanks for your response as always. I like a guy who doesn't falter under a little pressure.

JoeyA

 

[Drew]

Why the change?


Honestly I've never even heard of the idea.Can you (or anybody) explain this a bit?

My apologies to all if I'm just rehashing a common thread.The situation I discribed in my intial post is a factual as it gets.I didn't realize it gets "discussed" quite a bit.

Oh and thanks for the replies to all...I gotta say though...they are all over the map lol.

One of the old guys I play with told me to try it out. After finding my aiming line, I look beyond the OB and focus on where my line meets the rail. This helps me stay down as I'm no longer concerned with the OB and where it's going. It also tells me whether I stroked straight or not because my spot on the rail won't move where as the OB will. So my stick should be pointed directly at my spot. Since I've started doing this, my ball pocketing has just flown through the roof...I'm not missing too much anymore.

 

[Cameron Smith]

When I am teaching beginners I tell them to look at the cue ball as the follow through. I think it is important for them to watch their stroke and learn to keep it straight.

As far as anyone who already has a straight stroke, I say do whatever feels comfortable.

P.S. The dart arguement makes me want to scream it is just so damn illogical.

 

[TheConArtist]

while standing i project the cueball past the objectball to the rail then get down over the cueball, only time i focus on just the cueball is when i am jacked up over a ball. But my main focal point is the cueball during aiming, as i only look back and forth about twice, but the last thing i keep my eyes on is the objectball with the pocket in my peripheral vision

 

[DoomCue]

Mr. Souquet said this on a post-match Accu-Stats interview. The commentator (I forget which) was asking Ralf about secrets to his break, and he said he looks at the cueball last. Ralf added that he even looks at the cueball last on regular shots too. If I recall correctly, this was the 2005 Derby City Classic finals DVD. If you're interested, I can double check if this was the match when I get home. I was thinking about watching an Accu-Stats anyway.

Edit: Of course, it turns out that I don't have that disc right now. Must have loaned it out. I'm pretty sure that was the match where he said that though.

There are lots of players who look at the CB last on the break (I'm one of them). There are lots of players who look at the CB last on certain jump shots (I'm one of them, too). By no means do these two statements mean these players look at the CB last on the majority of all shots, and it certainly doesn't mean they look at the CB last on all shots.

Sounds to me like this quote has been taken out of context and brutalized on this site, and I wish it would just die.

-djb

 

[DoomCue]

**SNIP**

I think the no.1 error of all players is inaccurate bridge positioning, not bad cuing. To me, on most occassions, bad cuing is more a symptom than a cause.

By looking at the CB and relying on accurate pre-alignment, a player can quickly learn a lot about his stroke and alignment. But if they don't know much about how to align with english and various speeds, they still could be confused.

**SNIP**

For example, with BHE, I line up the pot (pre-align) before I pivot the cue. Looking at the OB will not help me one iota after I have pivoted, so to play BHE effectively, I must pre-align very accurately, and pre-align according to the expected throw that the English will exert.

Hope that clarifies it a little. I am working on a book and video to explain it all in much more detail, but that will take a while to produce.

Cheers,
Colin

Perhaps I should just wait for the book and the video, but I don't think I'm following. How do you get more feedback about stroke and alignment by looking at the CB last instead of the OB? You're a proponent of BHE (I'm a proponent of teaching BHE, but I personally don't use it), which minimizes cuing errors, so I still don't understand why you feel a need to look at the CB last. I disagree that after the pivot, looking at the OB any more can't help you - you aligned that way, wouldn't keeping focus there ensure that you've maintained that alignment following the pivot?

I've always thought that if the main concern with a shot is miscuing, then watch whitey last. On all other shots, focus on the OB. On most shots, I'm not concerned with miscuing, so I focus on the OB.

I'm not trying to be obtuse - if there's something I can glean from this that can help my students, then I will use it. I'm just trying to understand your point of view because your way of thinking is entirely counter-intuitive to me.

-djb

 

[BlackDragon]

the colored ball

 

[Cuebacca]

There are lots of players who look at the CB last on the break (I'm one of them). There are lots of players who look at the CB last on certain jump shots (I'm one of them, too). Me too on both, and sometimes when bridging over balls as well. By no means do these two statements mean these players look at the CB last on the majority of all shots, and it certainly doesn't mean they look at the CB last on all shots.

Sounds to me like this quote has been taken out of context and brutalized on this site, and I wish it would just die.

-djb

I didn't extrapolate "break shot" and "certain shots" to mean "all shots". I mean "all shots" because Ralf said so in an interview. He was clear about it. I'm sorry but I don't have the DVD with me right now. When I get it back from loan, I'll get you his exact wording. I can admit when I'm wrong, so I'll let you know either way. I'm pretty sure of what I heard (not exact wording but the meaning), and it sounds like others are too, but if I'm wrong I will publicly apologize to Ralf, you, and AzBilliards for brutalizing a misquote of his. Maybe someone else has that match and can report the wording he used. Obviously, you are welcome to buy the match yourself to dispel the myth, and if it turns out that you're wrong, I hope you'd report back too.

 

[DoomCue]

I didn't extrapolate "break shot" and "certain shots" to mean "all shots". I mean "all shots" because Ralf said so in an interview. He was clear about it. I'm sorry but I don't have the DVD with me right now. When I get it back from loan, I'll get you his exact wording. I can admit when I'm wrong, so I'll let you know either way. I'm pretty sure of what I heard (not exact wording but the meaning), and it sounds like others are too, but if I'm wrong I will publicly apologize to Ralf, you, and AzBilliards for brutalizing a misquote of his. Maybe someone else has that match and can report the wording he used. Obviously, you are welcome to buy the match yourself to dispel the myth, and if it turns out that you're wrong, I hope you'd report back too.

I don't expect an apology, and I don't think you owe one.

I have seen Ralf play a few dozen times (he's one of my favorite players, and it was tough to watch his reaction following the WPC) and regardless of whether or not he said he looks at the CB last on all shots, he usually looks at the OB last, which was the point I was making. His quote is constantly used to back up the argument that players should look at the CB last, when he doesn't actually do that.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, that was not my intent.

-djb

 

[Cuebacca]

I don't expect an apology, and I don't think you owe one.

I have seen Ralf play a few dozen times (he's one of my favorite players, and it was tough to watch his reaction following the WPC) and regardless of whether or not he said he looks at the CB last on all shots, he usually looks at the OB last, which was the point I was making. His quote is constantly used to back up the argument that players should look at the CB last, when he doesn't actually do that.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, that was not my intent.

-djb

Thanks man... sorry if my feathers got ruffled.

I will trust you on your eye-witness testimony. Perhaps it was a miscommunication between what he said and what I heard, or maybe he changed what he used to do. I'm so curious now that I'm going to have to track down that quote, because I could have sworn...

Either way, I don't recommend one way or another (OB vs. CB last) as there are many posters here better suited to voice their opinions on that, and many have. I only meant to post his words as a FWIW kind of thing.

If I speak of it again, it won't be until I have reviewed his exact words, and if I do, I'll add that its been reported that he doesn't actually look at the cueball last. I'm going to have to watch his eyes more carefully from now on too.

 

[duckie]

I focus on a spot 1/2 ball in front of the OB. The spot is basiclly the contact point on the OB just extended 1/2 ball from the edge of the OB. I then stroke to that point.

 

[JoeyA]

Perhaps I should just wait for the book and the video, but I don't think I'm following. How do you get more feedback about stroke and alignment by looking at the CB last instead of the OB? You're a proponent of BHE (I'm a proponent of teaching BHE, but I personally don't use it), which minimizes cuing errors, so I still don't understand why you feel a need to look at the CB last. I disagree that after the pivot, looking at the OB any more can't help you - you aligned that way, wouldn't keeping focus there ensure that you've maintained that alignment following the pivot?

-djb

Well, I can't speak for Colin. He does a very good job of that but when you talk about looking at the OB I can easily believe that THAT would be a bad idea if you are using BHE. Your eyes would be sending some AWFUL information to the brain and when the brain finds out what you are trying to do and what you are looking at, it is going to shift gears by its self.

Looking at the cue ball LAST after applying pivot English (BHE) is probably a very good idea.
JoeyA

 

[SteveFromNY]

I remember playing a few racks of 9-ball with a snooker player some years back when he told me that he always pictured a line going from the CB to OB to the pocket (much like in the video game VP3).

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
Make sure you autograph my copy and put me first on your list of buyers.

Thanks for your response as always. I like a guy who doesn't falter under a little pressure.

JoeyA

Very kind of you mate.....but now I'll have to get off my butt and finish the thing...the pressure never ends

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Perhaps I should just wait for the book and the video, but I don't think I'm following. How do you get more feedback about stroke and alignment by looking at the CB last instead of the OB? You're a proponent of BHE (I'm a proponent of teaching BHE, but I personally don't use it), which minimizes cuing errors, so I still don't understand why you feel a need to look at the CB last. I disagree that after the pivot, looking at the OB any more can't help you - you aligned that way, wouldn't keeping focus there ensure that you've maintained that alignment following the pivot?

I've always thought that if the main concern with a shot is miscuing, then watch whitey last. On all other shots, focus on the OB. On most shots, I'm not concerned with miscuing, so I focus on the OB.

I'm not trying to be obtuse - if there's something I can glean from this that can help my students, then I will use it. I'm just trying to understand your point of view because your way of thinking is entirely counter-intuitive to me.

-djb

Hi Doomcue,

When I say I look at the CB last, it's not exactly true. I should say that I do not focus on the OB. Sometimes I look in the direction of the OB to sense the speed and positional route, and other times I focus on the CB and/or cue to moniter how my cue strokes the CB.

You ask how I get feedback from the OB when looking at the CB. The answer is simple. I look very hard at the OB during initial alignment, making sure I am lined up for the pot, according to what the final execution will be. I have imagined the complete shot and seen the lines of cue, CB and OB such that they all seem correct. When this is ready, I have aligned, and I make sure to steady my bridge firmly in that position.

In fact, I reckon I look at the OB and it's line to the pocket with more intensity and for much longer that most players do throughout their entire shot. I just don't need to look at it during execution, as I have already set all the variables required for execution.

Re: BHE. I'm not sure if you are talking about the same BHE as I am, perhaps you're thinking of one of the aim and pivot methods where aiming is done off center CB and then the cue is pivoted to center CB.

But when I use BHE I align through the center of the CB, as decribed above. Then I fix my bridge hand and pivot the back hand for the required english. At this point, I do sometime casually look at my final alignment with the english set and try to perceive if it looks right. With some experience it will look pretty right, but that visual guide is not as useful as actually trusting my knowledge of the system. So I don't look hard at the OB after that, as doing so can lead to secong guessing via swiping or bridge hand movement.

Here is a 28 minute video I made describing and showing some BHE shots that might make what I'm saying clearer. (Note: Video is low quality....done on mobile phobe).
http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/InstructionalVideos/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html

Hope that clarifies a little,
Colin

 

[DoomCue]

Hi Doomcue,

When I say I look at the CB last, it's not exactly true. I should say that I do not focus on the OB. Sometimes I look in the direction of the OB to sense the speed and positional route, and other times I focus on the CB and/or cue to moniter how my cue strokes the CB.

You ask how I get feedback from the OB when looking at the CB. The answer is simple. I look very hard at the OB during initial alignment, making sure I am lined up for the pot, according to what the final execution will be. I have imagined the complete shot and seen the lines of cue, CB and OB such that they all seem correct. When this is ready, I have aligned, and I make sure to steady my bridge firmly in that position.

I don't doubt that you get feedback when focusing on the CB - I was curious about whether or not you feel you get MORE by focusing on the CB. I would think we don't need eyes for that since we're definitely not looking at the back hand during the stroke.

In fact, I reckon I look at the OB and it's line to the pocket with more intensity and for much longer that most players do throughout their entire shot. I just don't need to look at it during execution, as I have already set all the variables required for execution.

Re: BHE. I'm not sure if you are talking about the same BHE as I am, perhaps you're thinking of one of the aim and pivot methods where aiming is done off center CB and then the cue is pivoted to center CB.

The only BHE I know of is lining up with center ball, then pivoting for the desired english, so I think we're on the same page with that.

But when I use BHE I align through the center of the CB, as decribed above. Then I fix my bridge hand and pivot the back hand for the required english. At this point, I do sometime casually look at my final alignment with the english set and try to perceive if it looks right. With some experience it will look pretty right, but that visual guide is not as useful as actually trusting my knowledge of the system. So I don't look hard at the OB after that, as doing so can lead to secong guessing via swiping or bridge hand movement.

Here is a 28 minute video I made describing and showing some BHE shots that might make what I'm saying clearer. (Note: Video is low quality....done on mobile phobe).
http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/InstructionalVideos/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html

Hope that clarifies a little,
Colin

Thanks for the link - I'll check it out when I have time.

Honestly, I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me that looking at the CB last should be taught. Not only am I not seeing any pros doing that on the majority of shots, I don't see any halfway decent players in my area doing that. As with all things related to pool, there are certain things some players do yet still manage to play the game at a very high level, such as Keith's sidearm stroke, or Neils Feijen's cue under his right ear, but I would never teach anyone those things. For now, I'm putting focusing on the CB last in that category.

-djb

 

[PoolBum]

Ralf Souquet also focuses on the cueball last. I decided I didn't need to change anything when I heard that's what he does also.

I have to say that I am skeptical of the claim that players look at the cueball last. Maybe some do, but I definitely look at the object ball last, and every tape that I have studied from Accu-Stats where they show a closeup of the player shooting you can see his eyes move back and forth on the practice strokes between the object ball and the cueball, and then the last look as he strokes through the cueball is along the line of aim to the object ball.

I got out a tape of Souquet playing Reyes from the 2001 Master's, and there is a closeup of his face as he shoots and you can see that he does the same thing. He glances back and forth between the cueball and the object ball on his practice strokes, to groove his stroke, and then as he follows through on the shot his eys are on his target, the object ball.

What makes me skeptical is that I don't understand how you are supposed to aim while you stroke through the cueball, and be precise and accurate in hitting your target on the object ball, if you are not looking at what you are aiming at while you shoot?

Can someone point me to an Accu-Stats tape that clearly shows a player looking at the object ball last?

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't doubt that you get feedback when focusing on the CB - I was curious about whether or not you feel you get MORE by focusing on the CB. I would think we don't need eyes for that since we're definitely not looking at the back hand during the stroke.


The only BHE I know of is lining up with center ball, then pivoting for the desired english, so I think we're on the same page with that.


Thanks for the link - I'll check it out when I have time.

Honestly, I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me that looking at the CB last should be taught. Not only am I not seeing any pros doing that on the majority of shots, I don't see any halfway decent players in my area doing that. As with all things related to pool, there are certain things some players do yet still manage to play the game at a very high level, such as Keith's sidearm stroke, or Neils Feijen's cue under his right ear, but I would never teach anyone those things. For now, I'm putting focusing on the CB last in that category.

-djb

djb,
I recommend looking at the CB while stroking (or at the cue and CB) mainly as a training method. Once the player becomes competent with that method then it really doesn't matter where he looks. As I have said, looking toward the OB can provide some useful feedback for sensing positional play during the execution.

But I suggest to you or anyone else to spend a little time practising playing while focusing on the CB area as I'm confident it will provide some valuable lessons about both your alignment and cuing tendencies.

However, to convert entirely to a pre-alignment for play, I think it requires quite a lot of practice. The main benefit for me is that I can focus almost entirely on the positional aspect during the stroke as I do not need to make any intuitive type adjustments for aiming during the stroke, which I feel can add tension to the cuing arm.

I think it is fair to say that looking at the OB last, is done mainly because players need to make slight adjustments to their stroke during the execution phase. This is the ways players tend to learn intuitively, and what coaches have passed down to students. That doesn't mean it is best necessarily. I guess the proof will be in the pudding, if in years to come we see a new breed of elite players utilizing pre-alignment successfully....or perhaps beginners achieving higher levels of play in shorter learning periods, which is my expectation / hope from the training materials I will produce.

Different strokes for different folks...literally

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

What makes me skeptical is that I don't understand how you are supposed to aim while you stroke through the cueball, and be precise and accurate in hitting your target on the object ball, if you are not looking at what you are aiming at while you shoot?

Accept for straight on shots, the cue does not actually follow through to the actual line of contact. If cued straight with no spin, the cue will travel toward the center of the ghost ball.

I once set up a shot with CB and OB in dimples about 5 feet apart with a 1/2 ball pot OB 1 foot from the pocket, and fixed a rest into position such that a pure center ball roll shot potted the ball.

I then set the shot up 50 times, executing it by only looking at the CB and trying to hit it dead center. ( Which I should add was significantly harder than it is when cuing over my own bridge. )

Despite slight variation in my cuing ability on this pre-aligned shot, I made the ball accurately every shot.

This convinced me that it is significantly easier to hit the CB to where the bridge has aligned it, than it is to align the bridge accurately.

It takes a deliberately exessive bad cue delivery to make the CB deviate by 1 inch over 9 feet of travel, if the bridge hand remains in the same spot. A generally bad swipe at the CB would make it deviate only 1/4" over 9 feet of travel by my estimation. Hence, I think that it is not that hard to cue well enough to make shots when properly pre-aligned.

If Ronnie O'Sullivan could place my bridge hand for me, I believe my potting would improve markedly.

Colin