Time to shoot..what is your focal point?

[Nekdo]

If Ronnie O'Sullivan could place my bridge hand for me, I believe my potting would improve markedly.

Colin

LOL
I think snooker players have superior cueing techique.If you look at Stephen Hendry when he is cueing you`ll see what perfect means.His head is PERFECTLY still, ONLY thing moving is his forearm.It doesn`t matter if the CB is close to the rail.It impresses me every time.
I think the last think i look is the OB.Before I go down i look on the OB spot, while practice strokes i concenrate on the spot on the CB, and while pausing between the last practice stroke and the real one i look at the OB.If that`s correct I don`t know, but i realised that there are fery few things in pool that are correct for everyone, except for straight follow through.

 

[SirBanksALot]

Cue Ball & The Last Look

I had lasik a few years ago and now struggle with vision/focusing if I've been on the computer too long, driving long periods of time and certainly shooting pool too long.

I am always looking for remedies or methods that let my keep my "focus" in place longer.

I started reading this thread yesterday and looked for an opportunity yesterday to stop in a pool room and actually play looking at the cue ball last, instead of the object ball. Quite frankly, I was skeptical and was looking for my trial run at "Last Look At The Cueball" to be a bust.

I was wrong. Not only did my ball pocketing ability not suffer, it seemed like it was easier to use more precise amounts of spin for delicate positional requirements.

(I do a lot "visualization" in pool and golf and I was really able to visualize the spin I was putting on the cueball by looking at it last. It was also very easy to visualize the cue ball path toward the object ball and even visualize what part of the pocket the object ball was heading toward)

It just didn't and still doesn't make any sense that you can look at the CB last and make all the shots.

As I continued playing, I switched back and forth between OB last and CB last for different types of shots and suffered no drop in ball pocketing efficiency.

*** It did seem that when I quit playing, my vision had not deteriorated as much as at other times. I think that is because I used CB last on all shots longer than 1/2 table.

Furthermore, since I've avoided using glasses to play due to neck strain and compensations of having the rim of the glasses come into play on table length shots - looking at the cue ball last could well open up some possibilities for me there also.

 

[ShootingArts]

longer shots

With little distance between the cue ball and object ball everything is within acceptable focus and it doesn't seem to matter what I focus on. However on longer shots I have wrestled with where to focus after reading fourteen other threads on this same subject.

There seems to be a lot of merit to focusing on the cue ball last on longer shots where it isn't possible to have everything within acceptable focus. Nothing about a long shot is going to work if you don't hit the cue ball where and how intended with the proper stroke. I know where the object ball is at and I know where the pocket is at so now all that is needed is to deliver the cue ball to the object ball properly.

Putting theory into execution, I found that my missing percentage soared focusing on the cue ball last. Well hell, where is the wheel running off my wagon? This seems so logical.

Nothing about a long shot is going to work if you don't hit the cue ball where and how intended with the proper stroke.

A smooth flowing stroke is a major factor if I am to pocket shots with a lot of green between the cue ball and object ball. When I focus on the cue ball I inhibit my stroke. It takes very conscious thought to relax my stroke adding several layers of complication to an already difficult shot. If I look downtable focusing on the object ball or nothing at all, a free stroke is much more natural.

Different things work for different people but I thought I would mention this possible issue looking at the cue ball last.

Hu

 

[mantis99]

I never realized that not everyone does this the same. I find that the more focused I am on exactly where I want to hit the cue ball, the better I shoot. I always walk up to the shot and assess my necesary aim point before I get down on the ball. I then get down over the shot, and focus on the CB taking practice strokes to exactly where I want to hit the CB. After a few practice strokes, I look up and make sure I am correctly lined up (If not, I stand up, realign, and start over). I focus on the OB with a soft focus on the area of the pocket that I want to make the ball into. This helps my brain make sure of alignemnt. I look down at the CB again and take a few more practice strokes. By this time, my muscle memory should be locked in on the CB. I look up and focus hard on the exact spot I want to hit on the OB with a soft focus still on the pocket ( I can not soft focus on the pocket for the actual stroke if the cut is too severe). I then attempt an appropriate stroke at the ball using my best version of set pause finish. I find that the better I am able to achieve this focus, the better I play. The first thing I do when I seem to be a little off is forget about everything except a strong focus on the OB throughout the shot. This seems to work for me.

 

[Colin Colenso]

LOL
I think snooker players have superior cueing techique.If you look at Stephen Hendry when he is cueing you`ll see what perfect means.His head is PERFECTLY still, ONLY thing moving is his forearm.It doesn`t matter if the CB is close to the rail.It impresses me every time.
I think the last think i look is the OB.Before I go down i look on the OB spot, while practice strokes i concenrate on the spot on the CB, and while pausing between the last practice stroke and the real one i look at the OB.If that`s correct I don`t know, but i realised that there are fery few things in pool that are correct for everyone, except for straight follow through.

Glad my comment amused you Nekdo....welcome to the forum btw

For years I also thought that it was the straight cuing of the pros that held all the answers. Hundreds of training hours later using myriad self-invented tools, including a laser atop my cue, I pretty much learned how to cue as straight as could be achieved.

But I'd still miss long pots on the snooker table by 6" on occassion, especially during the warm up phase and after a break from the game. The reason, as I now am sure, was that I assumed, as most players do, that they have placed their bridge hand in an ok place, and that after that they just had to get the cuing right. But that is just not how it works.

The real brilliance of great potters like O'Sullivan and Hendry, I now believe, is not so much their straight cuing, though it helps, but their ability to place their bridge so perfectly.

Ronnie almost throws his hand into place on most shots. Any adjustments are minor, as they can rarely be detected on the video.

Physics pretty much prove, that a reasonably good cuing action can hit a CB withing 1mm left or right if its target over 9 feet. But placing one's bridge 1mm from the required position will lead to an error of around 9mm.

An average pot, say OB is 2 foot from the pocket and the CB is about 2 foot from the OB has a margin of error of approximately the equivalent of 1mm at the OB contact point, which converts to 4.5 mm over 9 feet.

So the pot won't be missed with correct alignment due to slight cuing variations, but if the bridge hand is placed more than 0.5mm out of place, then the pot can be missed.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

I had lasik a few years ago and now struggle with vision/focusing if I've been on the computer too long, driving long periods of time and certainly shooting pool too long.

I am always looking for remedies or methods that let my keep my "focus" in place longer.

I started reading this thread yesterday and looked for an opportunity yesterday to stop in a pool room and actually play looking at the cue ball last, instead of the object ball. Quite frankly, I was skeptical and was looking for my trial run at "Last Look At The Cueball" to be a bust.

I was wrong. Not only did my ball pocketing ability not suffer, it seemed like it was easier to use more precise amounts of spin for delicate positional requirements.

(I do a lot "visualization" in pool and golf and I was really able to visualize the spin I was putting on the cueball by looking at it last. It was also very easy to visualize the cue ball path toward the object ball and even visualize what part of the pocket the object ball was heading toward)

It just didn't and still doesn't make any sense that you can look at the CB last and make all the shots.

As I continued playing, I switched back and forth between OB last and CB last for different types of shots and suffered no drop in ball pocketing efficiency.

*** It did seem that when I quit playing, my vision had not deteriorated as much as at other times. I think that is because I used CB last on all shots longer than 1/2 table.

Furthermore, since I've avoided using glasses to play due to neck strain and compensations of having the rim of the glasses come into play on table length shots - looking at the cue ball last could well open up some possibilities for me there also.

Glad to hear you had a positive experience with this method SirBAL!

Note, that it can catch you out on shots that you may have been in the habit of swiping on in the past, but don't let that disuade you, it just means you may have to learn to pre-align a little differently to some shots in the future.

One interesting aspect is that as your eyes struggle, you can use them more in the visualizing pre-alignment phase while the bidy is quite still and relaxed, and then relax them during execution, so that you can concentrate more on the application of spin and speed as required for good position.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

With little distance between the cue ball and object ball everything is within acceptable focus and it doesn't seem to matter what I focus on. However on longer shots I have wrestled with where to focus after reading fourteen other threads on this same subject.

There seems to be a lot of merit to focusing on the cue ball last on longer shots where it isn't possible to have everything within acceptable focus. Nothing about a long shot is going to work if you don't hit the cue ball where and how intended with the proper stroke. I know where the object ball is at and I know where the pocket is at so now all that is needed is to deliver the cue ball to the object ball properly.

Putting theory into execution, I found that my missing percentage soared focusing on the cue ball last. Well hell, where is the wheel running off my wagon? This seems so logical.

Nothing about a long shot is going to work if you don't hit the cue ball where and how intended with the proper stroke.

A smooth flowing stroke is a major factor if I am to pocket shots with a lot of green between the cue ball and object ball. When I focus on the cue ball I inhibit my stroke. It takes very conscious thought to relax my stroke adding several layers of complication to an already difficult shot. If I look downtable focusing on the object ball or nothing at all, a free stroke is much more natural.

Different things work for different people but I thought I would mention this possible issue looking at the cue ball last.

Hu

Hu,
You never mentioned your bridge placement in your report. As I've mentioned in a few responses in this thread, the bridge placement is the key issue in being able to look at the CB during execution.

I hope you'll try again, paying more attention to getting your bridge into the perfect position before the stroke. As I've said, I believe it is about 9 times more critical than the cuing aspect. If you can learn to put it in the right place your potting will skyrocket, and the best way to learn if it has been placed correctly is to observe the bridge remaining fixed and the cue striking straight into the center of the CB.

If you miss when doing this, it is because your bridge hand placement is out of whack.

Good luck,
COlin

 

[PoolBum]

Accept for straight on shots, the cue does not actually follow through to the actual line of contact. If cued straight with no spin, the cue will travel toward the center of the ghost ball.

Colin

I see what you are saying here--the line of aim to the contact point on the object ball is not the line that defines the direction of the cue. That is fine, but what does that have to do with aiming while one shoots? If I have developed the eye-hand coordination to deliver the cue stick in a certain line of aim in order to pocket the OB why does it matter that the line of aim is not along the actual contact point on the OB? We are still talking about eye-hand coordination, and I don't see how one can aim without looking at the target while one is shooting, even if aiming in that case does not mean that the actual line of aim is a direct line to the contact point on the OB. It is still along a line that will take the cueball to the precise point of contact on the OB in order to pocket the OB, and that requires the same process of eye-hand coordination as would shooting the cueball directly on a line to a point on the OB. Wouldn't it?

 

[ShootingArts]

I don't fully agree

Colin,

I don't fully agree with your thoughts on how critical the bridge placement is. The slightest change in the contact point on the cue ball negates a slight misalignment in bridge placement. Obviously when bridge placement is radically off there is no option but to come up and reset. However one possibility is that when you think that some people's bridge placement is so perfect that you can't see them adjusting it is that they are making their tiny adjustments elsewhere such as in stroke speed and tip placement. Note that I am not talking about huge changes here but the tiny adjustments that amount to "feel".

A major flash of insight or possibly just a major electrical short in the brain, but I think our different thoughts may boil down to basic geometry. Your bridge is your pivot point with the short arm of your lever being the front of the shaft and the tip. Using standard side, my bridge is only my second location point with very little or no horizontal pivoting taking place. This means that not only does the location of the tip on the cue ball change a bit differently for each of us with bridge alignment, probably far more importantly, the direction of force for someone using back hand english changes. The direction of force using standard side remains the same regardless of where the bridge is or where the cue ball is struck.

I would like to try focusing on the cue ball and indeed working with BHE again sometime. However right now my game is suffering from too many changes too often. I will be focusing on simplifying and minimum changes for the next few months.

Hu

Hu,
You never mentioned your bridge placement in your report. As I've mentioned in a few responses in this thread, the bridge placement is the key issue in being able to look at the CB during execution.

I hope you'll try again, paying more attention to getting your bridge into the perfect position before the stroke. As I've said, I believe it is about 9 times more critical than the cuing aspect. If you can learn to put it in the right place your potting will skyrocket, and the best way to learn if it has been placed correctly is to observe the bridge remaining fixed and the cue striking straight into the center of the CB.

If you miss when doing this, it is because your bridge hand placement is out of whack.

Good luck,
COlin

 

[PoolBum]

I have seen Ralf play a few dozen times (he's one of my favorite players, and it was tough to watch his reaction following the WPC) and regardless of whether or not he said he looks at the CB last on all shots, he usually looks at the OB last, which was the point I was making.

-djb

I have to agree with this. I have watched Ralf and several other players closely on video and all the players I have paid close attention to, including Ralf, look at the OB last. I remember a while ago when I first read about the debate of looking at OB vs. cueball last, and I consciously monitored myself the next time I played to see what I did. I actually thought at first that I looked at the cueball last, but upon closer scrutiny I realized that in the instant before I let my stroke go I looked back at the OB and the line of aim. I still think this is what players must do to shoot accurately.

 

[poolcuemaster]

Earl and Souquet

I'm not sure where this statement originated, but it seems to be repeated a lot on this site. If you actually watch Souquet play, he looks at the OB last.

I can't think of a single pro who looks at the CB last (except on certain specialty shots), which makes me wonder why these threads pop up every other month.

-djb

I have watched them both for many hours live and even more on accustat videos and you are looking somewhere other than there eyes IMHO, and Earl will tell you just ask. I like the look of a straight stroke through the cue ball and this is easy to see in warmup strokes .Leonard

 

[Slasher]

I find it odd this is even being debated, sorry but my brain does not understand why you would look at anything other than the OB, just the only way I have ever known growing up playing snooker, no one ever even suggested otherwise. If you tried to do anything other than that on a snooker table you be be lucky to make a ball. I think if anyone is playing like this they are only getting away with it because it's a pool table.

 

[PoolBum]

I have watched them both for many hours live and even more on accustat videos and you are looking somewhere other than there eyes IMHO, and Earl will tell you just ask. I like the look of a straight stroke through the cue ball and this is easy to see in warmup strokes .Leonard

2001 Masters 9-Ball, Efren vs. Earl on Accu-Stats. Game 4. Earl plays a safe on the 2 banking the 2 cross side and leaving the cueball up against the 9. The camera is straight on Earl as he shoots. He looks at the 2, then he looks down at the cueball, then he looks back at the 2 and shoots. He is looking straight at the 2 ball all the way through his stroke.

Another example is Earl vs. Bustamante in the finals of the 2003 World 9-Ball. Game 25. Earl is shooting the 2 and pockets the 2 in the corner while breaking out the 5 and 6 which are together on the side rail. The camera is straight on Earl again showing his eyes moving back and forth between the cueball and the 2-ball. When he shoots his eyes are fixed on the 2-ball all the way through his stroke.

Again, I do not see how anyone can aim while they are shooting if they are not looking at the OB.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think most questions being asked of me have been answered already in my other replies.

But let me remind you of one point which seems to have been misunderstood.

If the bridge hand is out of place by 1/50th of an inch, cuing straight will result in about 1/8th of an inch deviation over 6 feet of travel.

If the CB is struck by the cue 1/50th of an inch off center, the deviation from the CBs travel path will be closer to 1/50th of an inch, if not considerably less.

Hence, bridge placement accuracy leads 6-10 times more deviation than does cuing.

This can be pretty much proved via some trigonometry and some testing with BHE.

This doesn't mean that cuing adjustments made during the stroke cannot be used effectively for some fine tuning. What it does suggest, is that pre-aligning very carefully and accurately is extremely important.

And so, a method train more accurate bridge placement, I recommend that players learn to pre-align more accuratly by simply observing the CB and cue execution during the stroke, such as to eliminate second guess swiping which can lead to drawing incorrect conclusions about the correctness of the original alignment.

If it's hard for some of you to imagine, I suggest you try it out and see what you learn about your alignment, your stroke and the importance of accurate bridge hand placement.

Note: Yes, I have also been using this method on the snooker table, and am happy with the results.

Colin

 

[rbgarmon]

it seems to me you gotta look at the cue ball first and then the object ball. there is no need to look back at the cue ball.

 

[JoeyA]

With little distance between the cue ball and object ball everything is within acceptable focus and it doesn't seem to matter what I focus on. However on longer shots I have wrestled with where to focus after reading fourteen other threads on this same subject.

There seems to be a lot of merit to focusing on the cue ball last on longer shots where it isn't possible to have everything within acceptable focus. Nothing about a long shot is going to work if you don't hit the cue ball where and how intended with the proper stroke. I know where the object ball is at and I know where the pocket is at so now all that is needed is to deliver the cue ball to the object ball properly.

Putting theory into execution, I found that my missing percentage soared focusing on the cue ball last. Well hell, where is the wheel running off my wagon? This seems so logical.


Nothing about a long shot is going to work if you don't hit the cue ball where and how intended with the proper stroke.

A smooth flowing stroke is a major factor if I am to pocket shots with a lot of green between the cue ball and object ball. When I focus on the cue ball I inhibit my stroke. It takes very conscious thought to relax my stroke adding several layers of complication to an already difficult shot. If I look downtable focusing on the object ball or nothing at all, a free stroke is much more natural.

Different things work for different people but I thought I would mention this possible issue looking at the cue ball last.

Hu

Hu, Sir Bankalot has had some success, I think, with changing to looking at the cue ball last. What you said about the stroke being a major factor in long shots is critical on all shots except the very easy and even then you should be applying a good stroke to the shots that you can't miss.
It may work well for some people but in the long run I think the computer wants to have input on the critical stuff.

As Colin mentioned, he seems to get better shape looking at the cue ball last. Me, I get good shape most of the time looking at the object ball last but often miss the object ball.

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

Hu,
If you can learn to put it in the right place your potting will skyrocket, and the best way to learn if it has been placed correctly is to observe the bridge remaining fixed and the cue striking straight into the center of the CB.

If you miss when doing this, it is because your bridge hand placement is out of whack.

Good luck,
COlin

Thanks Colin,
You remind me of someone who used to post on RSB but without some of the baggage. He was very bright and articulate but lacked your easy-going manner.

I will be trying this and paying attention in my next practice session. On many shots this should be relatively easy but on shots where your body is positioned at uncomfortable angles to the table, perfect bridge hand placement will be more difficult.

JoeyA

 

[ShootingArts]

seems we may be on the same page

Hu, It may work well for some people but in the long run I think the computer wants to have input on the critical stuff.
JoeyA

Now we are on the same page!!

I strongly agree that our computer wants to have input on the critical stuff. It will if we let it. Our eyes and conscious thought are only the interfaces with our real computer, our subconscious. When we focus too strongly on any single detail during a complex action, we shut out the input we need from the subconscious.

My objective is to achieve my goals(make a shot and shape) expending the minimum amount of both physical and mental energy and effort. Aside from being basically lazy, the less effort required to do something, the more easily I can repeat it consistently. For me that means doing the grunt work to give the subconscious the background it needs and then leaving it free to execute when the time comes. It is far more adaptive than conscious thought can ever be when solving complex problems.

As for cue ball or object ball last, lots of ways to skin a cat. I once shot pool with a room owner that is legally blind and played a fair game. His focal depth is extremely narrow. Often he can only see the cue ball, or the object ball, or the pocket clearly. He has to give each one individually his attention and then piece together the total trigonometry needed in his mind. I feel much the same way focusing on the cue ball. If I focus on or near an object ball, I am still aware of my cue ball and tip. However if I focus on the cue ball, often I can not even detect the object ball, it is lost in bokuh. I have shut down important real time input to my subconscious. That and the fact that focusing on the cue ball disrupts my stroke without deliberate effort to keep it flowing means I will have to find some very strong advantages to offset these things I see as weaknesses, indeed that are weaknesses in the approach for me personally.

Curiosity killed the cat and I will almost certainly experiment with looking at the cue ball last and back hand english again before the year is out. However, my foundation is badly eroded and I am repairing it before getting sidetracked with expanding my game.

Hu

 

[NINEBALLART]

Once when I was having an off night and couldn't make a ball a friend of mine asked me if I was looking at the OB last? I said, "I don't know?"....But I will concentrate on it next game "....I broke and ran the next rack by concentrating on the OB last....
So I always remind myself to do this when I start missing...
But this discussion got me to thinking....Has anyone ever shot a game by lining up the shot and then turning your head and closing your eyes and and shooting and still make the ball with your eyes closed???? I do this sometimes to get my stroke following thru properly....Its amazing how once you are lined up you can close your eyes and you will still make the ball...
So now I am wondering if looking at the cue ball last will work as long as you are lined up properly....I don't know but I am going to give the suggestions on this subject a try next practice session....
If it don't work for me I go back to what I was doing before....But I am open minded to suggestions and theories on this forum....Keep em coming.......

 

[PoolBum]

"Once when I was having an off night and couldn't make a ball a friend of mine asked me if I was looking at the OB last? I said, "I don't know?"....But I will concentrate on it next game "....I broke and ran the next rack by concentrating on the OB last....
So I always remind myself to do this when I start missing..."

This is why I think players do in fact look at the OB last as they stroke through the shot. IMHO sighting the line of aim to the OB while you stroke through the cueball is crucial to being accurate and precise not only in your pocketing of balls, but also in your touch with controlling the speed, direction, and position of the cueball after you pocket the OB.

That is why when you study the video of players who might think they are looking at the cueball last (Earl and Ralf have been mentioned), you will see that they are in fact looking right at the OB as they stroke through the cueball. I cited two specific examples of this above from Accu-Stats videos with Earl, and there are more that I've seen since then that clearly show him looking at the OB as he shoots.


"But this discussion got me to thinking....Has anyone ever shot a game by lining up the shot and then turning your head and closing your eyes and and shooting and still make the ball with your eyes closed???? I do this sometimes to get my stroke following thru properly....Its amazing how once you are lined up you can close your eyes and you will still make the ball..."

Try playing a few games (not just setting up a shot, but playing actual games where you have to pocket a ball and play position differently each time) by doing this: on each shot after you groove your stroke but before you actually shoot have a friend hold something in front of your sightline to the OB so that you can only see the cueball, and test your pocketing and position results against being allowed to execute the shots the way you normally would.

IMHO, without the perceptual feedback that your brain requires from sighting the line of aim, seeing the distances and angles involved, and every other perceptual variable that figures into the hand-eye coordination necessary to the proper execution of a shot, not only will your accuracy be adversely affected, but also the efficacy of your stroke itself and your positional control of the cueball.