Tip diameter vs accuracy

NaturalEnglish

NaturalEnglish

Banned
I was reading the comments players have made regarding the tip diameter of a shaft like the Predator Z(11.75mm) vs the Predator 314(12.75mm). Many players commented that the smaller diameter Z shaft was less forgiving than the 314 when making balls...ie shot accuracy was worse.

Those comments make no sense to me. The area on the tip that actually HITS the cue ball must be the same, independent of the shaft diameter. Agreed?

Ignoring all the other factors like deflection, squirt and swerve. I think most, if not all the impressions those players had about the smaller Z shaft diameter affecting shot accuracy were based on some psychological impression that the smaller diameter shaft was somehow affecting their shot accuracy. Anyone else agree?

I do understand that the shaft diameter does affect shot accuracy (due to squirt etc)...BUT if there is an accuracy affect, the Z shaft should improve the accuracy NOT lower it.

I suspect most of those impressions were psychological due to the big changes going from a high squirt normal diameter(13mm) shaft to a low squirt small diameter(11.75mm) shaft.

I think if I could somehow hold a shaft that was 1mm in diameter, I could be MORE accurate and precise when hitting the cue ball and ultimatley Id be more accurate in shot making.

Comments?
 
No, the area of the tip contacting the cue ball *is* different IMHO. And a smaller tip diameter is less forgiving. That's why a lot of beginning players (and even some old timers) prefer 12.75 to 13mm because they can be a bit off and not cause unnecessary or unintentional spin which causes the shot to be off (especially with a lot of green).

Really, it all boils down to what you are comfortable with.
 
Draw a circle 2 1/4 in diameter...now make 2 lines that are 12.75mm apart with a radius of a dime on the end of the 2 lines that touches the larger circle. Now draw another 2 lines that are 11.75mm apart with a radius of a dime on the end that touches the larger circle.

Do you see a difference in contact? I think not.

Ok there MIGHT be a difference in how the larger tip compresses compared to the smaller tip...but I got to believe this effect is so trivial its not in the equation.
 
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NaturalEnglish said:
Draw a circle 2 1/4 in diameter...now make 2 lines that are 12.75mm apart with a radius of a dime on the end of the 2 lines that touches the larger circle. Now draw another 2 lines that are 11.75mm apart with a radius of a dime on the end that touches the larger circle.

Do you see a difference in contact? I think not.

Ok there MIGHT be a difference in how the larger tip compresses compared to the smaller tip...but I got to believe this effect is so trivial its not in the equation.
Click to expand...

You may find it interesting to know that not all Z-shafts are identical. I know a fellow with two of them, and they shoot differently. He definitely prefers one of them.

The idea that two apparently identical shafts -- with the same tapers and ferrules and tips shaped the same -- will necessarily play the same is highly questionable.

There will likely be subtle differences in the way they play, that not everyone will be able to detect, but some might.

Flex
 
The reason a wider tip is more forgiving is because you generally use less english with a wider tip. Some people measure english by the distance from the outside of the cueball. If you line up the outside edge of the tip to the outside edge of the cueball you will have less english with the larger tip because the contact point is farther away from the edge of the cueball.

On another note larger shafts (>13mm) usually use a nickel shaped tip because if you use a dime shape you won't have much tip left. A flatter tip will result in a contact point closer to the center of the cueball with the same offset.
 
mnShooter said:
The reason a wider tip is more forgiving is because you generally use less english with a wider tip. Some people measure english by the distance from the outside of the cueball. If you line up the outside edge of the tip to the outside edge of the cueball you will have less english with the larger tip because the contact point is farther away from the edge of the cueball.

On another note larger shafts (>13mm) usually use a nickel shaped tip because if you use a dime shape you won't have much tip left. A flatter tip will result in a contact point closer to the center of the cueball with the same offset.
Click to expand...

Now that is some reasoning I can get behind! But given the same tip radius and same tip contact point on the cue ball. The diameter of the shaft should have no effect on the accurracy of the shot...IMHO.
 
NaturalEnglish said:
I was reading the comments players have made regarding the tip diameter of a shaft like the Predator Z(11.75mm) vs the Predator 314(12.75mm). Many players commented that the smaller diameter Z shaft was less forgiving than the 314 when making balls...ie shot accuracy was worse.

Those comments make no sense to me. The area on the tip that actually HITS the cue ball must be the same, independent of the shaft diameter. Agreed?

Ignoring all the other factors like deflection, squirt and swerve. I think most, if not all the impressions those players had about the smaller Z shaft diameter affecting shot accuracy were based on some psychological impression that the smaller diameter shaft was somehow affecting their shot accuracy. Anyone else agree?

I do understand that the shaft diameter does affect shot accuracy (due to squirt etc)...BUT if there is an accuracy affect, the Z shaft should improve the accuracy NOT lower it.

I suspect most of those impressions were psychological due to the big changes going from a high squirt normal diameter(13mm) shaft to a low squirt small diameter(11.75mm) shaft.

I think if I could somehow hold a shaft that was 1mm in diameter, I could be MORE accurate and precise when hitting the cue ball and ultimatley Id be more accurate in shot making.

Comments?
Click to expand...
Three questions here I think...

One is "can a more precise contact on the cb be acheived with a smaller diameter tip?" - the 1mm example seems convincing.

Two is ""is a smaller diameter tip more "touchy" or "less forgiving"?"
- all else being equal, I agree that it should make no difference. A smaller RADIUS however, could seem more touchy because it will naturally spin the ball a bit more for the same offset - and I think Tracy suggested that players may tend to shape a smaller diameter tip to a smaller radius.

Three is "what effect does lower squirt have on all this?" - lower squirt should = more accuracy AND more forgiveness (because it shoots a tighter pattern) BUT, again as discussed in another thread, lower squirt means slightly more spin...so to throttle back on the spin, shape the tip slightly flatter.

Steve
 
Here are my thoughts....


I think the smaller diameter shafts apply more spin to the cue ball(zshaft). Therefore a misshit by just a tad puts more swerve and throw into the shot. THAT imo is what makes the shaft seem less forgiving.

A solid 13mm maple shaft doesn't spin the cueball as easily. Misshitting the cueball will put very little english on the cueball therefore making the shot more forgiving.

Ian
 
Currently I am playing with a Predator Z with a dime radius. Its like driving a sports car compared to a pickup truck. My feeling is I will adjust to the power and control of the shaft and tip radius. Yes I have had to back off on English a lot. However, when I need that extra power and control...its there for the taking. Shooting with a 13mm nickle radius is like putting governor on a sports car engine.
 
NaturalEnglish said:
Currently I am playing with a Predator Z with a dime radius. Its like driving a sports car compared to a pickup truck. My feeling is I will adjust to the power and control of the shaft and tip radius. Yes I have had to back off on English a lot. However, when I need that extra power and control...its there for the taking. Shooting with a 13mm nickle radius is like putting governor on a sports car engine.
Click to expand...

Interesting, but it's not the very minor difference tip diameter or radius makes. It is all about the stroke. If you have a straight, solid repeatable stroke you can move whitey effortlessly with any tip diameter or radius, within reason of course.

If I could not say, draw whitey full table length or more; I wouldn't be looking at shaft diameters or tip radius. I'd be looking for a way to strike the c/b more accurate. Now that is a much better comparison. That is in fact a governor (if you will) or restriction to a good pool stroke.

Rod
 
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ok I know what natural english is getting at. I tend to agree that the contact point between a dime/ nickel tip is the same for the above mentioned tip size. (except 1mm :) ) But it really does "feel" like a larger diameter is more forgiving. I do not have the answer to why, but if you are specifically talking about contact area, I think it's the same.
 

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xianmacx said:
Here are my thoughts....


I think the smaller diameter shafts apply more spin to the cue ball(zshaft). Therefore a misshit by just a tad puts more swerve and throw into the shot. THAT imo is what makes the shaft seem less forgiving.

A solid 13mm maple shaft doesn't spin the cueball as easily. Misshitting the cueball will put very little english on the cueball therefore making the shot more forgiving.

Ian
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what Billy Stroud professes. In 9-ball he feels a center ball type hit a little off center is affected less with a 13mm shaft than a 12mm. Therefore when striking a cue ball hard the less effect on the cue ball the better, and in 9-ball we hit the cue ball very hard some times.
From a similar conceptual point of view. If I were to punch a beach ball in the center with a 8" round object it tends to go straight forward easily, but if you punched it with a much smaller object its more likely to cause the forward direction to go a little left or right.
The whole reason for Predator is exactly this issue.
 
To explain we tries, we tries, we fails
The swerves, the squirts, the throws
But oh they cling to old wives tails
Ignoring we that knows
 
inthezone said:
To explain we tries, we tries, we fails
The swerves, the squirts, the throws
But oh they cling to old wives tails
Ignoring we that knows
Click to expand...

That little poem there is worth some rep. I like it.

Maniac
 
twilight said:
ok I know what natural english is getting at. I tend to agree that the contact point between a dime/ nickel tip is the same for the above mentioned tip size. (except 1mm :) ) But it really does "feel" like a larger diameter is more forgiving. I do not have the answer to why, but if you are specifically talking about contact area, I think it's the same.
Click to expand...

Nice drawing. Move a little more to the right and the smaller tip will miscue. LOL
 
NaturalEnglish said:
I was reading the comments players have made regarding the tip diameter of a shaft like the Predator Z(11.75mm) vs the Predator 314(12.75mm). Many players commented that the smaller diameter Z shaft was less forgiving than the 314 when making balls...ie shot accuracy was worse.

Those comments make no sense to me. The area on the tip that actually HITS the cue ball must be the same, independent of the shaft diameter. Agreed?

Ignoring all the other factors like deflection, squirt and swerve. I think most, if not all the impressions those players had about the smaller Z shaft diameter affecting shot accuracy were based on some psychological impression that the smaller diameter shaft was somehow affecting their shot accuracy. Anyone else agree?

I do understand that the shaft diameter does affect shot accuracy (due to squirt etc)...BUT if there is an accuracy affect, the Z shaft should improve the accuracy NOT lower it.

I suspect most of those impressions were psychological due to the big changes going from a high squirt normal diameter(13mm) shaft to a low squirt small diameter(11.75mm) shaft.

I think if I could somehow hold a shaft that was 1mm in diameter, I could be MORE accurate and precise when hitting the cue ball and ultimatley Id be more accurate in shot making.

Comments?
Click to expand...
Here's what i wrote on the last one. Looks like we agree. I don't know about the different shafts you mention but shaft taper can correct a lot of deficiencies with squirt and all the rest.

This is all speculation but IMO it seems that miss cues with a smaller tip are simply flaws in stroke (or tip grooming) and more english with smaller tips is psycological.

If the radius is the same for all tip diameters tested it seems that the contact area between tip and CB is the same. I think the difference is, with a smaller tip is that it's easier to see exactly where the tip will (should) land on the CB but when aiming for extreme english it's a double edge sword. You may know where to hit the CB but since you're now swinging a more accurate tip size you need a more accurate stroke. A larger tip gives you more room for error against miscueing. But with an extremely accurate stroke you will be able to apply the same amount of english with a 13mm as a 10mm tip given the same radius. The advantage with slightly small than 13 mm tips is being better able to pinpoint or see where the tip lands. If we all had a perfect stroke all we would need is a tip size equal to whatever the contact diameter between tip and CB is. Maybe 2 mm? Just think how perfect we could be if we could control that!!
 
NaturalEnglish said:
Draw a circle 2 1/4 in diameter...now make 2 lines that are 12.75mm apart with a radius of a dime on the end of the 2 lines that touches the larger circle. Now draw another 2 lines that are 11.75mm apart with a radius of a dime on the end that touches the larger circle.

Do you see a difference in contact? I think not.

Ok there MIGHT be a difference in how the larger tip compresses compared to the smaller tip...but I got to believe this effect is so trivial its not in the equation.
Click to expand...

No more trivial then the difference between a hard tip vs a soft tip!
 
I shoot with a z-shaft and love it. I have said before that I feel the z-shaft is less forgiving, but I did not mean in terms of ball making. I feel that the z is less forgiving when it comes to cue ball control. For example, if I shoot a shot with x amount of running english with a regular shaft, and accidentally put a little extra running english, the cue ball will still end up close to where I wanted it. If I do the same with the z-shaft, the cue ball will run much much further than I wanted. The fact that the z shaft can put so much english on the ball makes getting the right amount of english much more difficult. Since switching to the z, I find myself much much more concious of the exact placement of the tip on the cueball. Just my .02
 
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