I don't think swiping the stroke vs. hitting the CB at the swipe angle with a straight stroke changes much, if anything, about tip/ball contact dynamics.
pj
chgo
Tip shape
- Thread starter dquarasr
- Start date
pj
chgo
Yeah, I think the swipe would produce less spin, simply because of a glancing hit rather than a direct hit.
I'd say any cb action that a player gets using a swiping motion could also be created using a straight motion. They just learned how to do it differently.
Interesting thought - I suppose that would be a partial miscue...?
But I don't think swiping can make that much difference in the approach angle at contact.
pj
chgo
Just your opinion, though, without any definitive proof.
dquarasr
Registered
Can someone please confirm: when we use the term “swipe”, we mean having the back hand moving side-to-side at CB impact, rather than straight through the CB? Is that correct?
Yep - that's why I said "I don't think". I do think my opinion can beat up your opinion, though.
Kidding aside, our opinions can be pretty easily tested. I've posted this before:
Since I'm not practiced at swiping/swooping, I'll leave it to you to try this if you're interested.
pj
chgo
Last edited:
Right, referring to the bold.... At the instant of impact, the ball is going to start moving in accordance with the direction of the cue at that instant. Any extra motion being made after that point won't make a difference. The only exception is when the ball is trapped/pinched between the tip and the slate or cushion or other balls.
Right. Imagine a beach ball in front of you. First, punch it straight forward with your hand. That's like a tip hitting a cue ball. Then try punching and twisting your arm and hand off to the right at the very moment you're punching the ball. You'll find that your hand stays on the ball longer because your arm is following through sideways and the beach ball hasn't move forward fast enough to evade your hand swiping across.
That’s what happens with a straight stroke at the swipe angle too, even the part about longer contact time (more off center = longer contact time). Just sayin’…
pj
chgo
dquarasr
Registered
Thanks, Fran. That's what I thought but I was somewhat confused because I can't envision swiping adding an appreciable amount of spin compared to stroking straight through the CB. Add to that the fact that for everyone but the top pros, hitting within 1mm of intended contact point is difficult enough; adding a swipe makes it orders of magnitude more difficult.
My reasoning that swiping can't add significant spin worth doing: assuming an 8-inch bridge, the cue tip probably cannot travel more than just a few inches laterally during a stroke, and considering cue speed isn't really that high to start with on most shots, it's hard to see where swiping adds much side spin. I'm also not sure that increased contact time, if it really is increased at all, again, is significant enough to impart noticeably more side spin.
In my eyes, given the inaccuracy of the tip/CB contact point while swiping, I don't see where it's anything more than fodder for a theoretical discussion, having no real practical value on a pool table. I welcome dissenting opinion.
The issue was not that you were getting more spin by swiping. It was that you were getting less cue ball squirt and could aim truer while applying side spin. Remember: This was created before the days of LD shafts.
Not meaning to insult you, of course, as well as others here with knee-jerk type of negative responses without definitive proof, but this method was once widely used by many of the best players in the world, and I believe some still use it today --- I'm pretty sure Earl still does it, as I've seen him swipe across the ball when he was living in NY. The pros had other choices back then, and they picked what gave them the best results, and this seemed to be among the most popular. I attended many group discussions with them at tournaments gathered around a table in a practice room, demonstrating this technique. It was fun and exciting and innovative. But yes, it did require a certain degree of trust, which players who are method-oriented might have issues with.
Last edited:
We only need to imagine the tip moving laterally enough to reach the miscue limit (~1/2"). To do that, the grip hand must move laterally (in the opposite direction) about 4 times as far (~2"). That might seem like a small enough amount, but of course it makes the result less predictable, especially trying to hit a specific amount less than maximum (if that's ever done) and compensate for whatever amount of squirt.
pj
chgo
dquarasr
Registered
No insult taken, especially from someone as accomplished as you.
Assuming this technique is indeed useful, I’d say it’s reserved for players with skills WELL above my meager pedestrian skills. Let’s consider it, then, a highly advanced technique.
I just edited my post to include that it's important to note that this method was created before the invention of LD shafts.
I misunderstood this too - sorry for confusing things.
Do you ever use a swipe stroke, Fran?
pj
chgo
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Swiping is very interesting to me and I tend to side with Fran here that EITHER the tip stays in contact longer producing more spin OR the extra directional force in the desired spin direction juices the ball more since the cue is not just moving forward but also accelerating to the intended side of spin. Perhaps a combo of both.
I played around with this technique and found it surprisingly accurate for all the moving parts involved but my biggest insight into magnitude of spin vs a str8 stroke came by accident when I put on some weight and tried to play my regular stance which resulted in my stroke having an arc that sent my hand out to in and my tip to the right at contact. It wasn't moving a lot, maybe a quarter tip, max half tip (confirmed with chalk marks on marked cue ball) but the effect of the right english on the ball was way more pronounced than a hit at same area with a regular stroke.
I played around with this technique and found it surprisingly accurate for all the moving parts involved but my biggest insight into magnitude of spin vs a str8 stroke came by accident when I put on some weight and tried to play my regular stance which resulted in my stroke having an arc that sent my hand out to in and my tip to the right at contact. It wasn't moving a lot, maybe a quarter tip, max half tip (confirmed with chalk marks on marked cue ball) but the effect of the right english on the ball was way more pronounced than a hit at same area with a regular stroke.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'll do it if I have to really get maximum spin on a thin super slow shot, like in some type of safety situation, or a near pocket shot where the CB must spin like hell at slow speeds. More of a throw type shot. I'm not a physicist but it works. It might be just to negate deflection, but even with a LD shaft you can get some serious spin imparted on the CB with a very soft stroke. It's not often that I pull the shot out of my bag, but when it's the right shot it can be very powerful.
I'd only ever do it with an almost pocket hanger because it's very hard to control. If sidespin complicates things, this does so to an absolute maximum. You can even get some slight masse on the CB when the spin wears off. Very difficult to control the rock, but in certain situations it's invaluable.
I used to do this more when I played with a regular maple shaft. It's one of those shots that took serious effort to re-learn with LD. I practiced it by just scattering balls and trying to group all 15 together with legal hits. Kind of like nursing the ball in straight rail billiards. I just practiced gathering the balls for 3 or 4 practice sessions. It really got me tuned into that aspect of the ld shaft.
It works great for thinning a ball and getting the CB a large distance away. To me it can sometimes be a good option to use to freeze a ball in a safety.
I'd only ever do it with an almost pocket hanger because it's very hard to control. If sidespin complicates things, this does so to an absolute maximum. You can even get some slight masse on the CB when the spin wears off. Very difficult to control the rock, but in certain situations it's invaluable.
I used to do this more when I played with a regular maple shaft. It's one of those shots that took serious effort to re-learn with LD. I practiced it by just scattering balls and trying to group all 15 together with legal hits. Kind of like nursing the ball in straight rail billiards. I just practiced gathering the balls for 3 or 4 practice sessions. It really got me tuned into that aspect of the ld shaft.
It works great for thinning a ball and getting the CB a large distance away. To me it can sometimes be a good option to use to freeze a ball in a safety.
Last edited:
That's why I've been insiting that the tip stays on the cb longer. How else would you suddenly get less cb squirt with all things the same and without an LD shaft? I learned this method in the 80s, and I took to it right away and integrated it into my game until the first Predator shafts came out, which again, I immediately took to. I cut down drastically on using the swipe method as I gained confidence in aiming truer with the LD shaft. However, I continued to use the swipe method on the big shots. I must have felt that I still needed to compensate my aim too much on those types of shots and that the Predator shaft may have fallen short on those. Anyway, I must still do it on occasion on big shots, because my late friend Tony Annigoni would catch me doing it and say, "There she goes with that windshield wiper stroke again."
Last edited:
Seems to me you’ve just traded angling the cue and then stroking straight for angling the cue during the stroke. Not less squirt; compensating for it differently.
pj
chgo
That would be true if the cue was angled before contact, but that's not how this works. The idea is that the cue is lined straight along the line of the shot on contact and then angles out through the finish of the stroke. The cb doesn't get away fast enough, thus the tip contact time is longer.