And some are simply obstinate imbeciles. Nice for you that there are more and more of those here lately and fewer and fewer with the patience to correct them. Enjoy the company.
pj
chgo
TOI's "Margin of Error" Myth Explained
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
pj
chgo
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Unlike you, I think there are only very few here that might fit that 'E' word that you used.
Most have more than enough intelligence to make their own decisions regarding most matters & do not need to be told one way or the other & especially not conclusively by someone that has not even physically touched or tested the subject matter.
If a Champion or 'Past' Champion, as you say (Personally, I think a Champion is always a Champion), says something about the game in which they are a Champion, I think it would behoove anyone playing that game to give what is said serious consideration & then see, by trying it out for themselves, if what was said can benefit them in a like manner.
If it does, then what was said is true for them, even if others may find it not beneficial for them, at that time, & might consider what was said to be false. They may approach the subject in the future & change their minds.
The bottom line is, does something improve one's game or not. That decision can ONLY be made by the individual. Sometimes merely an experience of trying something can be beneficial in a small way, but who is to say what is a small way when The Game, at times, comes down to a millimeter or even less.
If an undercut is virtually taken out of the picture then the odds for success have been increased. Athlete's know how to hedge the odds when it comes to their performance. Book worms don't seem to understand much about athletic performance.
I suggest that everyone that is interested in what a Champion has said try it for 3 straight hours as CJ suggests & then make your own determinations. If it's beneficial to you, fine, you've found something. If not, put it on a shelf, as CJ has said. You may want to revisit it at a future date.
Unlike you, I think there are only very few here that might fit that 'E' word that you used.
Most have more than enough intelligence to make their own decisions regarding most matters & do not need to be told one way or the other & especially not conclusively by someone that has not even physically touched or tested the subject matter.
If a Champion or 'Past' Champion, as you say (Personally, I think a Champion is always a Champion), says something about the game in which they are a Champion, I think it would behoove anyone playing that game to give what is said serious consideration & then see, by trying it out for themselves, if what was said can benefit them in a like manner.
If it does, then what was said is true for them, even if others may find it not beneficial for them, at that time, & might consider what was said to be false. They may approach the subject in the future & change their minds.
The bottom line is, does something improve one's game or not. That decision can ONLY be made by the individual. Sometimes merely an experience of trying something can be beneficial in a small way, but who is to say what is a small way when The Game, at times, comes down to a millimeter or even less.
If an undercut is virtually taken out of the picture then the odds for success have been increased. Athlete's know how to hedge the odds when it comes to their performance. Book worms don't seem to understand much about athletic performance.
I suggest that everyone that is interested in what a Champion has said try it for 3 straight hours as CJ suggests & then make your own determinations. If it's beneficial to you, fine, you've found something. If not, put it on a shelf, as CJ has said. You may want to revisit it at a future date.
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Tried it some
John,
I didn't get a full practice session in with it yet but I did use it on a rack or two before my One Pocket match last night. I can see it has some merits on some shots to help tighten up rebound angles and slow the cue ball down.
Im not a full convert by any means so far but there are some advantages to using in in certain situations. No doubt about that. There is a certain pop and cancellation of speed that seems to occur when you hit the object ball right. That can be useful. Its the opposite of gearing and you can throw the object ball at times if youre not careful. So I think one has to hit the correct speed for sure.
Hey Robin.
I have been using TOI since it was first introduced by CJ. It is an interesting way of striking a QB to then striking an OB.
Do I use it all the time........no. I do use it when I see an advantage to using it.
See the Bold in your post. You will find using TOI that your working very close to the vertical axis of the QB. The QB must be sliding when it contacts the OB. What I have found is very little inside is required, maybe 1/4 to 1/8 of a tip, its a feel thing (ya know what I mean). The shots will have to be hit more firmly than what you may be use too. You want to try to avoid the gearing motion that is transferred from the OB to the QB.
When CJ posted this information he was posting the way he plays and has for quite a few decades. Its his unique style and suggests that players try it out. Like he states, if its not for you then just put it on the shelf to maybe be used at a different time. At no time has he ever said that TOI is the cats meow.
TOI comes in real handy. Your time at the table will not be wasted. Keep an open mind.
I wish I would have known about "The Power Shot System" 50 years ago, it works very well. Thanks.:wink:
John
John,
I didn't get a full practice session in with it yet but I did use it on a rack or two before my One Pocket match last night. I can see it has some merits on some shots to help tighten up rebound angles and slow the cue ball down.
Im not a full convert by any means so far but there are some advantages to using in in certain situations. No doubt about that. There is a certain pop and cancellation of speed that seems to occur when you hit the object ball right. That can be useful. Its the opposite of gearing and you can throw the object ball at times if youre not careful. So I think one has to hit the correct speed for sure.
Robin,
What you say here is correct. I hope you find the time to spend a straight 3 or near 3 hours with it. That is when it more fully presents itself.
I personally would not spend too much time with TOI before a one pocket match as I don't want that firm hit ingrained in my mind.
Perhaps you're more of a conscious player & have better control over your subconscious.
Turning TOI off
I didn't have any problem turning TOI off. I agree with Patrick in that some shots might need something else and probably I wouldn't pull toi out until I found myself in a situation where I needed it. I am concerned that the differences you need to take into account might cause a miss but familiarization ought to clear that up. At this point using TOI isn't a lot unlike using Center Ball and playing position using tangent line position which might be one of the overriding advantages of using it as an overall methodology but we will see.
I didn't have any problem turning TOI off. I agree with Patrick in that some shots might need something else and probably I wouldn't pull toi out until I found myself in a situation where I needed it. I am concerned that the differences you need to take into account might cause a miss but familiarization ought to clear that up. At this point using TOI isn't a lot unlike using Center Ball and playing position using tangent line position which might be one of the overriding advantages of using it as an overall methodology but we will see.
Robin,
I can turn TOI off too. It's the general firm hit that sometimes takes a bit of time to pull back & I don't want that right before going into a one pocket match.
No one has said that 'every' shot needs to be hit with TOI nor that 'every' shot should be hit with TOI. I've explained how CJ goes from TOI to outside english.
The 'every' shot thing is just for the 3 hours 'introduction'.
CJ said that going back & forth between english & TOI styles of play could drive one nuts & I came to agree with him, even though I do it for certain reasons.
TOI & center are not even comparable in the terms of them being the same. There are other advantages to TOI.
I don't use TOI playing one pocket hardly at all, but 8 & 9 ball are another story.
You Stay & Play Well.
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Haven't seen cj's material personally but toi is decades old. Many players in themidwest use it.
I find it very effective when playing on tables that only pocket balls well when they split the pocket lol. I also like it when playing one pocket because you gain some travel control of the cb, while striking with speed.
I wouldn't say it gives a larger margin for error but if you hit the back of the pocket corner using inside its going to help the ball go in.
I'm not saying that missing the shot and catching main rail will still go in with it.
But on like these dumbarse oljausen tables locally that the pockets hate the ball touching any piece of it, enev a perfect back side hit that will even drop on deep shelf diamonds.....I can go from bobbling it, and them striking the same part of pocket, with same speed and it will let the ball clear that gauntlet of a pocket. It makes the ob act more like it does when shooting with pocket speed, which these tables of course don't give the same issue when doing that.... But obviously not all shots need to be pocket speed.
It's a pocketing assist method for those tough pockets and those players who are already delivering with the proper accuracy but not seeing the wanted result due to table conditions.
But if your not accurate to begin with toi isn't going to do anything for bad pocketing skills and shooting accuracy.
Never have used or thought of it as an aiming method. Not even Margin of error. Just to make well struck bobble balls actually drop instead of chillin out on the edge.
Just my personal thoughts. Hope it makes sense.
PJ....tear through it if you like brother but I think you get what I'm trying to say.
Regards,
The grey one
I find it very effective when playing on tables that only pocket balls well when they split the pocket lol. I also like it when playing one pocket because you gain some travel control of the cb, while striking with speed.
I wouldn't say it gives a larger margin for error but if you hit the back of the pocket corner using inside its going to help the ball go in.
I'm not saying that missing the shot and catching main rail will still go in with it.
But on like these dumbarse oljausen tables locally that the pockets hate the ball touching any piece of it, enev a perfect back side hit that will even drop on deep shelf diamonds.....I can go from bobbling it, and them striking the same part of pocket, with same speed and it will let the ball clear that gauntlet of a pocket. It makes the ob act more like it does when shooting with pocket speed, which these tables of course don't give the same issue when doing that.... But obviously not all shots need to be pocket speed.
It's a pocketing assist method for those tough pockets and those players who are already delivering with the proper accuracy but not seeing the wanted result due to table conditions.
But if your not accurate to begin with toi isn't going to do anything for bad pocketing skills and shooting accuracy.
Never have used or thought of it as an aiming method. Not even Margin of error. Just to make well struck bobble balls actually drop instead of chillin out on the edge.
Just my personal thoughts. Hope it makes sense.
PJ....tear through it if you like brother
but I think you get what I'm trying to say.Regards,
The grey one
Pocket Assist
GreyGhost,
The pocket assist part of TOI is what I like about it but I do because I play a lot of my shots to the side of the pocket simply because if I know where the pocket point is then I know Im not supposed to hit it and it gives me something solid to focus on and I deliver my shot.......with a higher degree of success....because I feel better about the target and delivery.
That is sort of what brought me into this conversation. I make choices really well based on where I want to play the ball in the pocket with English because I understand if I don't gear the shot correctly that the ball will be thrown to one side or the other and I try to allow for the possibility of the throw as well as a nice place for a perfectly hit shot to land.
I think this is just smart pool playing and what CJ was likely trying to say with some of his claims. I don't find it altogether deceptive advertising although his methods would have you think he pours a lot of gasoline on the fire.
I think some of his claims have rubbed some folks the wrong way so they have gone after him on some of his claims and he would be deserving of some of that.
The manipulation of ball delivery is not something new but perhaps it not been a part of accepted pool practice where shots are supposed to be aimed on a line splitting the center of the pocket.
For me I just know better that an aim point can assist in a delivery point and a process that is easier than having to be perfect aiming at center and yes there is a big difference. Its a difference in confidence. If you know you aren't supposed to hit the pocket point and you allow 1 thousand of a difference in your delivery to fix that and the ball splits the pocket well......what is that? It is an assurance that you are going pocket more balls? I think so if its easier for you. To me that is the bottom line. You do what you have to in order to learn to play with feel. If you drive yourself to have to be perfect all of the time that has to hinder the process. So you are giving yourself increased margins of error perhaps not physically but mentally and in this game that matter quite a bit.
Haven't seen cj's material personally but toi is decades old. Many players in themidwest use it.
I find it very effective when playing on tables that only pocket balls well when they split the pocket lol. I also like it when playing one pocket because you gain some travel control of the cb, while striking with speed.
I wouldn't say it gives a larger margin for error but if you hit the back of the pocket corner using inside its going to help the ball go in.
I'm not saying that missing the shot and catching main rail will still go in with it.
But on like these dumbarse oljausen tables locally that the pockets hate the ball touching any piece of it, enev a perfect back side hit that will even drop on deep shelf diamonds.....I can go from bobbling it, and them striking the same part of pocket, with same speed and it will let the ball clear that gauntlet of a pocket. It makes the ob act more like it does when shooting with pocket speed, which these tables of course don't give the same issue when doing that.... But obviously not all shots need to be pocket speed.
It's a pocketing assist method for those tough pockets and those players who are already delivering with the proper accuracy but not seeing the wanted result due to table conditions.
But if your not accurate to begin with toi isn't going to do anything for bad pocketing skills and shooting accuracy.
Never have used or thought of it as an aiming method. Not even Margin of error. Just to make well struck bobble balls actually drop instead of chillin out on the edge.
Just my personal thoughts. Hope it makes sense.
PJ....tear through it if you like brother
Regards,
The grey one
GreyGhost,
The pocket assist part of TOI is what I like about it but I do because I play a lot of my shots to the side of the pocket simply because if I know where the pocket point is then I know Im not supposed to hit it and it gives me something solid to focus on and I deliver my shot.......with a higher degree of success....because I feel better about the target and delivery.
That is sort of what brought me into this conversation. I make choices really well based on where I want to play the ball in the pocket with English because I understand if I don't gear the shot correctly that the ball will be thrown to one side or the other and I try to allow for the possibility of the throw as well as a nice place for a perfectly hit shot to land.
I think this is just smart pool playing and what CJ was likely trying to say with some of his claims. I don't find it altogether deceptive advertising although his methods would have you think he pours a lot of gasoline on the fire.
I think some of his claims have rubbed some folks the wrong way so they have gone after him on some of his claims and he would be deserving of some of that.
The manipulation of ball delivery is not something new but perhaps it not been a part of accepted pool practice where shots are supposed to be aimed on a line splitting the center of the pocket.
For me I just know better that an aim point can assist in a delivery point and a process that is easier than having to be perfect aiming at center and yes there is a big difference. Its a difference in confidence. If you know you aren't supposed to hit the pocket point and you allow 1 thousand of a difference in your delivery to fix that and the ball splits the pocket well......what is that? It is an assurance that you are going pocket more balls? I think so if its easier for you. To me that is the bottom line. You do what you have to in order to learn to play with feel. If you drive yourself to have to be perfect all of the time that has to hinder the process. So you are giving yourself increased margins of error perhaps not physically but mentally and in this game that matter quite a bit.
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More mythology. Whether you need inside or outside for this depends entirely on the shot layout - both are needed about equally often.
A little inside (no special names necessary) is just another place to hit the CB - nothing special.
pj
chgo
I use it as a shot in my tool box for my rotation games. It adds quite a few position options that center ball and outside can't do.
I like to firm up my shots as much as possible. It keeps the paralysis from setting in when you're bunting balls with the lock artists.
Best,
Mike
How have You been Mike?
I doubt that he's back. He's probably just passing through.
PS Keeby, I enjoyed the videos that you did back then. You have a very good manner about you.
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Robin,
How much time did you spend with it & can you elaborate as to your reasoning.
Best Wishes.
Yeah....some of my favorite posters are like - minded. I use it as a base for my game and on most shots. The reason I'm so convinced it's the right path is because of the way I came to it. It was 1996 and one day I was so frustrated with my shot - making I wanted to throw something. That's not a smart thing to do when one is in their home though.
So I just got down on a shot and hit it with a touch of spin even though I was not concerned with shape. I was only concerned with pocketing the ball. I did not plan on or tell myself I was going to do this. It was only after I hit it that I said to myself, " Hey...I just deliberately hit that ball with a touch of spin!"
It was almost like I was looking for the type of emotional release one gets by throwing something when frustrated; however, I received that same emotional release by hitting that ball. I FOUND THE TRUTH. I didn't read about it until a little over two years ago when I started reading C J Wiley. I the bought his CD.Seems his version of T.O.I was juuuust a little more refined than mine.
I believed it's only a matter of years before T.O.I. Is standard teaching.
Time Spent
Elroy I will address you and English's post at the same time.
At this time I use so many different English selections for my shots as I am building my database of perfect shape English use that for now TOI is a bit of a distraction from that.
Perhaps this winter I will have some time to spend on it but I like you have some things about my natural game that are similar to the teachings of CJ. I play a 3 part pocket, I sight most of my shots to one side, the one nearest to me which makes TOI something I don't have any trouble using but so far I don't find I need it on every shot. Just certain shots.
I recognize TOI as.....Holdup English....the inverse spin grabs the rail and slows the cue ball down which is very helpful and I use it for this purpose as well as getting the cue ball to come back off the rail closer to the tangent line going into it.
I play more one pocket these days but last time out we stopped in the middle of our One Hole match to play some 10 ball. I think its important that you switch off of One Pocket to check and see if you still have a normal stroke.
What I found out was that my position getting skills have gotten way better as long as I do and can execute the English that the shot seems to require. That being said I can't imagine every shot on the table where I want the cue ball to run the rails having me put a touch of inside on them. Does that make sense to you? Perhaps it ok not use TOI until its time for it.
Elroy I will address you and English's post at the same time.
At this time I use so many different English selections for my shots as I am building my database of perfect shape English use that for now TOI is a bit of a distraction from that.
Perhaps this winter I will have some time to spend on it but I like you have some things about my natural game that are similar to the teachings of CJ. I play a 3 part pocket, I sight most of my shots to one side, the one nearest to me which makes TOI something I don't have any trouble using but so far I don't find I need it on every shot. Just certain shots.
I recognize TOI as.....Holdup English....the inverse spin grabs the rail and slows the cue ball down which is very helpful and I use it for this purpose as well as getting the cue ball to come back off the rail closer to the tangent line going into it.
I play more one pocket these days but last time out we stopped in the middle of our One Hole match to play some 10 ball. I think its important that you switch off of One Pocket to check and see if you still have a normal stroke.
What I found out was that my position getting skills have gotten way better as long as I do and can execute the English that the shot seems to require. That being said I can't imagine every shot on the table where I want the cue ball to run the rails having me put a touch of inside on them. Does that make sense to you? Perhaps it ok not use TOI until its time for it.
Good Morning Robin,
I've been playing one pocket for probably less that 6 months & almost never use TOI while doing so. To me, it requires too firm of a hit to keep swerve out on any lengthy shot, especially with an LD shaft.
But if I go to play 8, 9 , or 10 ball it's out of the tool box.
Thanks for the clarification. I think it was a bit important.