TOI's "Margin of Error" Myth Explained

[ENGLISH!]

CJ realized that what he was saying was probably only for about 3 out of 10 that would understand, or maybe even less.

He never forced it on anyone & everyone that did not understand to simply put it on a shelf, as there may be a time in the future when they may want to revisit it.

He certainly knew that it would not be for everyone.

But for those that may have an interest, there is a time before an inexperienced pitcher learns how to throw a curve ball or a slider for a strike.

There is a time before an inexperienced tennis player learns to spin their second serve in instead of trying to hit it flat.

There is a time before many amateurs golfers learn to stop trying to hit every drive straight & to play a fade or a draw.

There is a time before an inexperienced bowler knows to curve the ball into the pocket instead of rolling it straight in.

If one had to shoot a bullet through a 3/8 inch hole without touching the perimeter, would one choose a .50 caliber rifle or would one choose a .22 caliber rifle.

The margin for error & success is increased by the the plan of action one chooses.

I would suggest that everyone spend 3 hours as CJ suggested aligning every shot to the full hit side of the pocket & then make a very slight parallel shift to the inside & hit the shot on the firm side.

After that everyone should make their own determinations.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I say teach the fundamentals that are the real reasons TOI seems to "work" - things like aiming and tip/ball precision and attention to results - and leave the sparkly packaging (and misdirection) off.

pj
chgo

I could not agree more.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Does TOI "increase the margin of error"? I don't think so. It does however work very effectively for pocketing balls and certain kinds of position play.

Let's say you've had a long day of playing pool, the ball polish is breaking down and you have had a couple of heavy contacts allready. It might even be a bit humid, as it often gets in the evening. Then you face a longish, off angle shot. I, for one, do not feel confident in rolling this in with center ball. I like lining it up sort of full and let the TOI do it's thing, as I hit the ball with a confident stroke. It takes a lot of guesswork and anxiety out of strokes like that, for me at least. You can of course use gearing outside english too, it's just that under these conditions I like TOI better.

There are of course several other scenarios where TOI is useful, often it's about stunning the ball with precision, even after rail contact etc. It also helps with being able to hit the cueball firmly, while having the cueball under control. In short, it's a way of cinching balls/position, like using outside, but with different kinds of strokes and position outcomes. I like rolling and spinning balls slowly than hitting shots firmly most of the time, but when I do have to hit hard, it's nice to be able to use TOI in many situations.

I don't like exaggerated claims like those made by TOI and CTE more than anyone else, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

 

[336Robin]

Side Pocket Aim

Does TOI "increase the margin of error"? I don't think so. It does however work very effectively for pocketing balls and certain kinds of position play.

Let's say you've had a long day of playing pool, the ball polish is breaking down and you have had a couple of heavy contacts allready. It might even be a bit humid, as it often gets in the evening. Then you face a longish, off angle shot. I, for one, do not feel confident in rolling this in with center ball. I like lining it up sort of full and let the TOI do it's thing, as I hit the ball with a confident stroke. It takes a lot of guesswork and anxiety out of strokes like that, for me at least. You can of course use gearing outside english too, it's just that under these conditions I like TOI better.

There are of course several other scenarios where TOI is useful, often it's about stunning the ball with precision, even after rail contact etc. It also helps with being able to hit the cueball firmly, while having the cueball under control. In short, it's a way of cinching balls/position, like using outside, but with different kinds of strokes and position outcomes. I like rolling and spinning balls slowly than hitting shots firmly most of the time, but when I do have to hit hard, it's nice to be able to use TOI in many situations.

I don't like exaggerated claims like those made by TOI and CTE more than anyone else, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

I agree here. There are a ton of benefits to side pocket aim for a lot of instances including using Center Ball. In all the years that I have been side pocket aiming I haven't accidentally missed the shot many times at all by hitting too thick and shooting into the pocket point.

There are a lot of things going on here that might be assisting that situation that might increase the possibility that hitting the pocket point is unlikely while aiming aside of it that might increase the possibility that you wont.

I haven't really given it a lot of thought until late, I just know it works this way.

One of those reasons would be the parallax on the shot. The closer the cue ball seems bigger and by the time it arrives to the object ball what you have aimed at may naturally may be addressed a tad thinner because of the visual differences. If that be true then there is sort of an assurance that addressing the ball into the pocket point is unlikely, therefore increasing the possibility that the other errors that one could make would be more likely and that error that you could make to miss from that angle would be to over squirt the shot due to poorly planned distance/squirt ratio.

There is no physical changes in the pocket size going on. That is absolutely true. I think what is being mapped out here about using Inside or Outside English and ball target placement vs. the probability of success using those methods.

I don't think that pool is such a sport/game etc that one size must fit all.

Most everyone of us here have been told or taught at some point that the way to make shots is from a line which emanates from the center of the pocket and sighted through the object ball and where that line passes through the object ball is the contact point and the place to address the object ball with the cue ball.

That was a good explanation at the time.

Just because an explanation deviates from the traditional does not mean that in the end the traditional method is being used when a ball is pocketed. I have been side aiming balls for a long time and I don't miss a lot. I know when to center aim shots because of Cut induced throw using Center Ball....those shots typically arrive to the side of center. We could call this a Touch of Throw...lol

I think good players find ways to assure that balls make the pockets and this is a natural thing to do especially when you are gambling. What is being done is larger chances for pocketing exist because you can physically see the pocket point because its not an invisible line emanating from the center of the pocket. Having a readily visible physical clue should account for something in terms of the chances given to pocketing although no extra pocket space is being made except there is more unused pocket space on one side of the arriving shot to with you would use if you accidentally squirted the cue ball just a bit more than planned.

I don't see that such a crime has been committed here honestly.

The presence of the physical pocket point lends stability to the fact that you really don't want to hit it and miss the shot and there is more room on the other side of the ball in case you over squirt your inside cued cue ball.

At any rate regardless of whether you agree with CJ's marketing claims or not, he does have some basis for the statements he is making and that comes from experience on the table and the weighing of probabilities.

Side aiming techniques work great regardless of the English selection used for the reasons I stated above. Any center to pocket shot from a soft angle is easy to send to the center of the pocket and that is exactly what I do but it doesn't mean you have to so view and play for the center of the pocket on all shots.

I think it is true that distance and parallax are having their own effects on the shot and more especially when a cue ball hits an object ball from an angle. How you aim might not be exactly how you address and if the tendency is to hit thinner because of it then well.....there you go.

Its a free world aim'em if you got'em. If you don't gotem you must have run out already. Results are what speaks no matter how you manage to get the white ball between the goal posts, to the center or to the side of the pocket is really irrelevant when looking at the score.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Does TOI "increase the margin of error"? I don't think so. It does however work very effectively for pocketing balls and certain kinds of position play.

Let's say you've had a long day of playing pool, the ball polish is breaking down and you have had a couple of heavy contacts allready. It might even be a bit humid, as it often gets in the evening. Then you face a longish, off angle shot. I, for one, do not feel confident in rolling this in with center ball. I like lining it up sort of full and let the TOI do it's thing, as I hit the ball with a confident stroke. It takes a lot of guesswork and anxiety out of strokes like that, for me at least. You can of course use gearing outside english too, it's just that under these conditions I like TOI better.

There are of course several other scenarios where TOI is useful, often it's about stunning the ball with precision, even after rail contact etc. It also helps with being able to hit the cueball firmly, while having the cueball under control. In short, it's a way of cinching balls/position, like using outside, but with different kinds of strokes and position outcomes. I like rolling and spinning balls slowly than hitting shots firmly most of the time, but when I do have to hit hard, it's nice to be able to use TOI in many situations.

I don't like exaggerated claims like those made by TOI and CTE more than anyone else, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

I agree with most of what you say here, but please consider the part about what you said for when you prefer using TOI. You're using it because you 'feel' or understand that it gives you a better chance or margin for success. Is that the not the same as increasing your margin for error?

If not, why not just shoot is as you normally would. Just because one is confident & can slow roll the ball in the other conditions does not mean that TOI would not work the same comparatively speaking.

Even at 10 AM with newly clean balls & table, I'd rather shoot a 8 or 9 foot long very thin cut with TOI than slow rolling it with center or even inside or outside english.

Just a bit of food for thought.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't like exaggerated claims like those made by TOI and CTE more than anyone else, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

Nobody's saying that a little inside English isn't the right shot sometimes - I use it frequently when the shape I want calls for it (but not to help me aim certain shots - then it becomes a crutch).

A small amount of inside English is just another normal hit like all the others, with no special advantages or disadvantages. It's misleading to try to give it special status.

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

Special Status

Nobody's saying that a little inside English isn't the right shot sometimes - I use it frequently when the shape I want calls for it (but not to help me aim certain shots - then it becomes a crutch).

A small amount of inside English is just another normal hit like all the others, with no special advantages or disadvantages. It's misleading to try to give it special status.

pj
chgo

I can agree on that. Where I see it used effectively it was termed to me as "Holdup" English when the opposing spin hits the rail and causes the cue ball to slow down quicker because of the opposing friction of the spin. That's a good reason to use it but I cant imagine I would ever want to play inside exclusively just for that purpose, that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I can agree on that. Where I see it used effectively it was termed to me as "Holdup" English when the opposing spin hits the rail and causes the cue ball to slow down quicker because of the opposing friction of the spin. That's a good reason to use it but I cant imagine I would ever want to play inside exclusively just for that purpose, that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I know you have your own philosophy, method, & technique, but if you give 3 straight hours to hitting every shot with just a bit of firm parallel left, I think you might notice something.

 

[336Robin]

I can do that

I know you have your own philosophy, method, & technique, but if you give 3 straight hours to hitting every shot with just a bit of firm parallel left, I think you might notice something.

I think I understand the concept pretty well and use it from time to time but I will take that challenge and one day when I go practice I will do just that and report my results...about a half tip of Inside or less if I have that right.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think I understand the concept pretty well and use it from time to time but I will take that challenge and one day when I go practice I will do just that and report my results...about a half tip of Inside or less if I have that right.

You'll develop a feel for how much offset as you tune into the squirt of your shaft & the distances between the two balls. As the balls get closer together you may need to go a bit more than the touch.

Be careful not to pivot to the inside. It has to be a lateral or parallel shift & must be a firm stroke to keep swerve out of the picture. I over hit for quite some time so as to make sure the swerve was out & sometimes still do.

It's not a 'challenge'. It's just a suggestion.

I think when one spends a straight 3 hours with it, one's mind opens up & one realizes just how many shots there are that 'fit' it & one realizes that one can play nearly every shot with it, except when one wants or needs to change the angle off a rail & wants or needs outside. CJ starts at the TOI & then pivots back to center or beyond.

I've not used pivoting for quite some time, but I was rather impressed how well the pivot for outside from the TOI position worked.

I think if you get 'sold' by it, it would be impressive as you have your own way. I did not abandon 'my way' but it sold me to it's advantages.

 

[One Pocket John]

I think I understand the concept pretty well and use it from time to time but I will take that challenge and one day when I go practice I will do just that and report my results...about a half tip of Inside or less if I have that right.

Hey Robin.

I have been using TOI since it was first introduced by CJ. It is an interesting way of striking a QB to then striking an OB.

Do I use it all the time........no. I do use it when I see an advantage to using it.

See the Bold in your post. You will find using TOI that your working very close to the vertical axis of the QB. The QB must be sliding when it contacts the OB. What I have found is very little inside is required, maybe 1/4 to 1/8 of a tip, its a feel thing (ya know what I mean ). The shots will have to be hit more firmly than what you may be use too. You want to try to avoid the gearing motion that is transferred from the OB to the QB.

When CJ posted this information he was posting the way he plays and has for quite a few decades. Its his unique style and suggests that players try it out. Like he states, if its not for you then just put it on the shelf to maybe be used at a different time. At no time has he ever said that TOI is the cats meow.

TOI comes in real handy. Your time at the table will not be wasted. Keep an open mind.

I wish I would have known about "The Power Shot System" 50 years ago, it works very well. Thanks.:wink:

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Hi John,

The very small amount of offset you suggested brought a few questions to mind.

Are you aligning CTC & CTE or are you using a more normal aim to the full hit side of the pocket?

Are you using a normal or an LD shaft?

What's the humidity like where are?

I'm using LD shafts & I'm rarely ever under a 1/2 tip & usually close to a full tip & maybe more. That said, I rarely hit on or very near the equator & am usually hitting low & high with the inside. The only time I hit on the equator is when I need to max out the squirt. Also I'm using the CTC & CTE alignments & added the mid point between them.

I guess I am anticipating your answers & am suggesting that there is more than one way to play with TOI given certain parameters.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[Chrippa]

Nice, a TOI thread!

Playing around with TOI since CJ came out has increase my knowledge of the game.

It´s a way to simplify it imo. You have to try it though to see the things that you have already seen... sort of.

The feeling of the need of aim sort of disappears, it´s like you are at the OB with you tip.

Regards

Christis

 

[ENGLISH!]

Nice, a TOI thread!

Playing around with TOI since CJ came out has increase my knowledge of the game.

It´s a way to simplify it imo. You have to try it though to see the things that you have already seen... sort of.

The feeling of the need of aim sort of disappears, it´s like you are at the OB with you tip.

Regards

Christis

Well stated.

You said very much in 3 short statements.

Now if more would just try it, for 3 hours, they may become more happy with their games.

I hope ALL has been Well with You,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Does TOI "increase the margin of error"? I don't think so. It does however work very effectively for pocketing balls and certain kinds of position play.

Let's say you've had a long day of playing pool, the ball polish is breaking down and you have had a couple of heavy contacts allready. It might even be a bit humid, as it often gets in the evening. Then you face a longish, off angle shot. I, for one, do not feel confident in rolling this in with center ball. I like lining it up sort of full and let the TOI do it's thing, as I hit the ball with a confident stroke. It takes a lot of guesswork and anxiety out of strokes like that, for me at least. You can of course use gearing outside english too, it's just that under these conditions I like TOI better.

There are of course several other scenarios where TOI is useful, often it's about stunning the ball with precision, even after rail contact etc. It also helps with being able to hit the cueball firmly, while having the cueball under control. In short, it's a way of cinching balls/position, like using outside, but with different kinds of strokes and position outcomes. I like rolling and spinning balls slowly than hitting shots firmly most of the time, but when I do have to hit hard, it's nice to be able to use TOI in many situations.

I don't like exaggerated claims like those made by TOI and CTE more than anyone else, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

All you've really said here is that a little inside is what some shots need. OK, but outside and center ball are also what some shots need. Inside is just another hit like all the others, each with its own uses, pros and cons. I think a bias toward one kind of hit is more likely to be a weakness than a strength.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think a bias toward one kind of hit is more likely to be a weakness than a strength.

pj
chgo

Then you apparently missed all of CJ's explanations as to why he chose to go to TOI after others introduced it to him because that is one of the main reasons to use TOI as a method or style of play.

While some choose to do so with outside, CJ also gave his reasoning why he thinks & feels that inside has advantages over outside.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

you apparently missed all of CJ's explanations as to why he chose to go to TOI

I didn't miss 'em - I just didn't buy 'em. Being a past champion is admirable, but it doesn't necessarily mean you make sense.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

I didn't miss 'em - I just didn't buy 'em. Being a past champion is admirable, but it doesn't necessarily mean you make sense.

pj
chgo

Well if you didn't miss his reasoning, then you should know why TOI can be an advantage to one's performance.

But, I agree with you. No one should accept his reasoning JUST because he is a Past Champion, nor should they accept or deny what you say just because you are not a Past Champion.

They should accept what CJ has said because what he has said makes good common sense.

I doubt that any pool player trying to get better would accept something that shows itself to hurt their game.

I know I wouldn't as I rejected CTE.

But one would actually have to try something to be sure if it works or not. I originally had my doubts being an english user for more than 4 decades but... spending 3 hours put almost all of those doubts to rest.

I doubt that OnePocketJohn or StraightPool or Chrippa or all the others that have thanked CJ for improving their games would accept something that did not help them.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...one would actually have to try something to be sure if it works or not.

Nonsense. When did you try to fly?

Some things are so obvious (to most) that "trying" them would be silly.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Right, science never does any actual testing.

The Wright Brothers did 'try' to fly when many, if not most everyone was saying that it was 'obviously' an impossible 'nonsense' 'fantasy'. I'm rather glad that they did not listen to such type people.

Many individuals base their opinions on their closed minds.

TOI works as CJ says it does & for the reasons that he said it does. Many have spent the time to learn such instead of saying that it is 'obviously' 'nonsense' & 'fantasy' & impossible.

I wonder if the Wright Bros. descendants get any royalties from every commercial air flight or whomever it was that was the first to fly when nearly everyone was saying that it was 'nonsense' & 'fantasy' & impossible?

The baseball didn't curve when the first batter to ever swing at one struck out.

I would suggest that anyone interested spend 3 hours straight with TOI on every shot & make your own determinations. That's all that CJ asked. Try it & decide for yourself & if you decide against it then just put it on a shelf as you may want to revisit it at some time in the future.

I do not understand why some seem to want to keep individuals from spending 3 hours on something that might help their game.