Too Safe = Too Stupid

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First let me say that I appreciate good safety play as much as anyone, especially in 9ball. In barbox 8ball, it's a different story. I try to be a run out player. I don't like playing safe when it doesn't accomplish anything. For example, if I have a runnable table, with an easy opening shot, and I also have an easy safety, I'm going for the runout. My philosophy on this is "why let your opponent back to the table when you don't have to?" I play on a BCA barbox 8ball league, and the only time I really ever get to play barbox 8ball is on league night, once a week. You get bonus money at the end of the season for every break and run you have. So of course, if I break and make a ball, and the table is at least somewhat open, usually I want to run out. I'll play safe when I see fit, but if the table is runnable, I am going for it.

Whenever I make a mistake, i.e. hook myself, get out of line, miss, and consequently lose the game because of it, my teammates always criticise me and how I should have played safe here and done that there, blah blah. Meanwhile, they are in the 40-50% win ratio for the season, and I'm in the top ten out of about 100 with a 75% win ratio. And I don't know this game for squat! I haven't been playing it that long, and I think that the majority of pool played on barboxes is crap, because most of the tables arent level, so you don't even get rewarded with precise position play if the ball is rolling into a spot perfectly and suddenly takes a steep dive to the left or right. If all barboxes were as well-kept as 9footers, I might have a little more respect for peoples games who ONLY play on 7footers. But most barboxes play like crap, so often there is alot of luck involved in maneuvering thru racks of 8ball.

Anyways, tonight I got some funny justice against my teammates, which I think will probably shut them up for a while. In one of the early games, one of my teammates has an easy shot with 5balls of his own on the table, laying very nicely for him, and his opponent only has the 8ball left. My teammate gets only SLIGHTLY out of line, and plays a safe, leaving his opponent a kick that was fairly easy to contact the 8. The 8ball wasnt near a hole, but it was about a ball's width off the side rail so the contact just to make a legal hit was easy. The guy calls the corner pocket, kicks and pockets the 8, winning the game. He only got very slightly out of line and let his opponent back to the table because of it. I think that was too chickenshit of him, because the runout was still easy. He was just TOO careful, and it cost him.

In one of my games, I play a beautiful safety, locking my opponent up from his 4 remaining balls. The hit alone is extremely difficult. My opponent happened to be a pretty good player, and I was forced to play safe pretty much. After I played the safe, my teammates started saying how great of a safe it was, and how I should play safe like that more often. He makes this beautiful kick and pockets his ball, getting perfect position, and he runs out. My teammates fell silent.

In one of my other teammates games, he does a similar thing as my first teammate, but it seemed like he was toying with the guy he was playing. He kept playing the same safe over and over, and the other guy kept tying up the same ball to the 8ball while playing an intentional foul. It seemed like they were going to keep playing the same shots over and over for the next 20 minutes, until my teammate got careless and the cueball squeaked out, leaving his opponent a shot on the 8, which he made. If my teammate had instead tried to pocket a ball and break up the cluster, he would have had a chance to run out.

Anyways, I think its silly to be too careful. Pool is one of the only games where you can never let your opponent to the table and win, so why not try to make use of that more often? I think that since that is possible, that in pool, the best defense is a good offense. Of course defense pays off, but when you overdo it, and won't shoot a slightly tougher shot, you will never be a winning player. I believe it was Sigel who said that you can't win tournaments by ducking. And Sigel's nickname was 'Captain Hook' when he was in his prime. What does that tell you?

Again, I'm not against safeties, or something like that. I just think people should have a little more guts if they want to win more, IMO. And this does involve percentages. Letting your opponent back to the table when you don't have to, is not playing the percentages, in most cases.
 
I think you're right, but your selection of when to play safe should also depend on how confident you are feeling and how well you are shooting. If you feel because your stroke is a little off in a night, you have a higher chance of winning a game by playing a safe than trying to run out, you ought to do it. I also think on bar boxes you should mostly play safe if you know that your opponent will have a ridiculous shot that has almost no chance of going in, such as if it is clustered with your balls with little space to get to it (and nothing is dead). I try not to play safe unless I have a really tough run out and my opponent has maybe 2 balls left at the MOST, and they are not near pockets. I have won a lot of games by breaking softly and letting my opponent run until he has one left and then letting them open up my balls with impossible-to-make kicks. I sometimes do this because when I play on bar boxes (rarely) the guys aren't that good so I know they will have trouble close quarters. It is too easy to run out if everything is blasted open and I make no balls.
 
Amen to that. When I see that the table is laid out for a run I refer to that as "smelling the blood". I go for the kill. You get all your balls in and your opponent never shoots again. They can't beat you if they don't shoot. It puts pressure on them not to miss again for the possibility that they may never shoot again. I feel you have to earn your victory with good play, not just waiting for the opponent to make a mistake. I feel if you let me shoot at all you already made the mistake. Safety, schmafety. Go for the kill.
 
Great Post Cuetechasaurus. I find myself playing to win myself and only playing a great safe here and there when its the shot with the higher percentage or the table is rather mess'd up. I run into people who love to just play the game and not bother with the safes which are great players to play against, then the ones who play great safes which again are great players to play against. Then i run into players who play nothing but safes. One situation i had the great runout of the night and perfect i mean perfect shape on the eightball. I missed the ball as i took it for a gimme. Now this guy plays seven great safes, pocketing each ball and calling safe. I had seven great attempts at hitting and trying to pocket my ball, here and there i miss'd it giving him ball in hand, and here i hit it but left him a shot to where he could of had the easiest of runout, but he must of not had faith in his game that night so another safe locking me up. It was a great game, which i lost as due to my mistake, but i see people like this where the safes turn against them in play and end up losing their match.

So safeties can win a match and they can lose you the match, so i play them when the percentages are very high, but i always give myself the chance to win.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
First let me say that I appreciate good safety play as much as anyone, especially in 9ball. In barbox 8ball, it's a different story. I try to be a run out player. I don't like playing safe when it doesn't accomplish anything. For example, if I have a runnable table, with an easy opening shot, and I also have an easy safety, I'm going for the runout. My philosophy on this is "why let your opponent back to the table when you don't have to?" I play on a BCA barbox 8ball league, and the only time I really ever get to play barbox 8ball is on league night, once a week. You get bonus money at the end of the season for every break and run you have. So of course, if I break and make a ball, and the table is at least somewhat open, usually I want to run out. I'll play safe when I see fit, but if the table is runnable, I am going for it.

Whenever I make a mistake, i.e. hook myself, get out of line, miss, and consequently lose the game because of it, my teammates always criticise me and how I should have played safe here and done that there, blah blah. Meanwhile, they are in the 40-50% win ratio for the season, and I'm in the top ten out of about 100 with a 75% win ratio. And I don't know this game for squat! I haven't been playing it that long, and I think that the majority of pool played on barboxes is crap, because most of the tables arent level, so you don't even get rewarded with precise position play if the ball is rolling into a spot perfectly and suddenly takes a steep dive to the left or right. If all barboxes were as well-kept as 9footers, I might have a little more respect for peoples games who ONLY play on 7footers. But most barboxes play like crap, so often there is alot of luck involved in maneuvering thru racks of 8ball.

Anyways, tonight I got some funny justice against my teammates, which I think will probably shut them up for a while. In one of the early games, one of my teammates has an easy shot with 5balls of his own on the table, laying very nicely for him, and his opponent only has the 8ball left. My teammate gets only SLIGHTLY out of line, and plays a safe, leaving his opponent a kick that was fairly easy to contact the 8. The 8ball wasnt near a hole, but it was about a ball's width off the side rail so the contact just to make a legal hit was easy. The guy calls the corner pocket, kicks and pockets the 8, winning the game. He only got very slightly out of line and let his opponent back to the table because of it. I think that was too chickenshit of him, because the runout was still easy. He was just TOO careful, and it cost him.

In one of my games, I play a beautiful safety, locking my opponent up from his 4 remaining balls. The hit alone is extremely difficult. My opponent happened to be a pretty good player, and I was forced to play safe pretty much. After I played the safe, my teammates started saying how great of a safe it was, and how I should play safe like that more often. He makes this beautiful kick and pockets his ball, getting perfect position, and he runs out. My teammates fell silent.

In one of my other teammates games, he does a similar thing as my first teammate, but it seemed like he was toying with the guy he was playing. He kept playing the same safe over and over, and the other guy kept tying up the same ball to the 8ball while playing an intentional foul. It seemed like they were going to keep playing the same shots over and over for the next 20 minutes, until my teammate got careless and the cueball squeaked out, leaving his opponent a shot on the 8, which he made. If my teammate had instead tried to pocket a ball and break up the cluster, he would have had a chance to run out.

Anyways, I think its silly to be too careful. Pool is one of the only games where you can never let your opponent to the table and win, so why not try to make use of that more often? I think that since that is possible, that in pool, the best defense is a good offense. Of course defense pays off, but when you overdo it, and won't shoot a slightly tougher shot, you will never be a winning player. I believe it was Sigel who said that you can't win tournaments by ducking. And Sigel's nickname was 'Captain Hook' when he was in his prime. What does that tell you?

Again, I'm not against safeties, or something like that. I just think people should have a little more guts if they want to win more, IMO. And this does involve percentages. Letting your opponent back to the table when you don't have to, is not playing the percentages, in most cases.

I'd say if the table's "runnable" you're stating the obvious, of course you go for it. If you have a lock down safety and can get ball in hand you finish out the rack in 2 trips instead of 1. I'd agree with you on not playing safe when you leave your opponent a "fairly easy" hit on the case ball when you have a chance to get out. Maybe you should find some teammates that share the same 8-ball philosophy as you?
 
StrokeofLuck said:
I'd say if the table's "runnable" you're stating the obvious, of course you go for it. If you have a lock down safety and can get ball in hand you finish out the rack in 2 trips instead of 1. I'd agree with you on not playing safe when you leave your opponent a "fairly easy" hit on the case ball when you have a chance to get out. Maybe you should find some teammates that share the same 8-ball philosophy as you?

I forgot to mention how a good looking table with maybe 1 problem ball of yours can turn into an ugly table with 3-4 problem balls in one kick shot or intentional foul from your opponent. I don't like to play safe if it doesn't accomplish anything with the layout of the table. Sure ball in hand is nice, but I always keep in mind that I have to play a dead perfect lock up safety to get ball in hand on a barbox, and even then it isn't guaranteed. I am kind of pessimistic, because when I look at playing safe sometimes, I always imagine what would happen if I didn't get ball in hand. Would I be worse off or better off than before I chose to play safe?

And as for my teammates, even though they are poolplayers with napoleon complexes, they are still good friends that I've known for a while. They are just hardheaded, and I try to keep a hobby from ruining a friendship. Everything they say I take in stride (except on a few different occasions). I don't care if we win or lose, I just play the league as a favor to them and try to have fun.
 
I only play 9-ball and I'm a firm beleiver that there is only one correct shot at any given time... If the shot is to play safe, you play safe; if the shot is to make a ball and get position, do it; if the shot is to ride the 9-ball, ride it. A safety should not be played for no reason, but sometimes you can play them for a foul-out win...

I shot with a less experienced player last night and it was anoying to watch him play his shots... A safety for no reason then he'd try to ride a next-to-impossible 9-ball, then he'd try to run-out, it was chaos... There was no rhyme or reason to it all!
 
Playing safe in 8 ball bar box is just like poker: you have to know when to fold'em.

To some, it is a God given talent. You have to have the proper mindset. To others, it is learned, over time. And then there is the huge majority who never learn, including very good shooters.

All you need to see is some fine players who can tie your ass up with killer safes. But they are few in the leagues. Again, I recommend The 8 Ball Bible to help one's learning curve on how to play safe and to learn exactly what the 'dead zones' are.
 
Great thread and your statement: "I don't like playing safe when it doesn't accomplish anything." is beautiful. I used to tell my teammates that they needed to gain something when playing a safety, otherwise don't play one.

I think that a person can get burned on a barbox when playing safeties (more than on a big table) because of the fact that kicking is easier (shorter distances are easier to see and visualize) and pockets are bigger.

Cuetech is correct that you won't win (very often) without shooting. There are times in the game when you just have to bear down, do or die, and tell yourself: "It is time to play!" and trust (believe) in your ability to run out.

Sounds like his teammates have such a high regard for a nice safety that they make it "Plan A" instead of "Plan B", which I think is a common trap for less experienced players. I have found that when playing too many safeties in a match, that I oftentimes have problems with my confidence when it is time to run out, thus causing me to miss and lose.
 
Is it fair to call this League Player Disease? I don't play in a league, but I get the feeling when I play these types that they're constantly worried about teammates pointing fingers at them for selling out. So, even when they have open shots, routine runouts, they're so concerned with protecting the cb that they pocket much worse than you'd expect for somebody who obviously has SOME experience with the game. Often they'll leave you long, but they hardly ever seem to get out if it's not dead simple.
 
One of the best 8 ball bar table shooters I've seen and also played with for years rarely played safe,and was aggressive. I guess you can say he never played safe unless it was going to improve the table for him, and he always locked up his opponent with an air tight safe, every time.

BUT...I think every situation is unique like a snowflake.

You must consider the table situation, your abilities, and your opponents ability's when deciding to play safe.

Not everybody sees things the same or has the same skill set.
 
seymore15074 said:
I shot with a less experienced player last night and it was anoying to watch him play his shots... A safety for no reason then he'd try to ride a next-to-impossible 9-ball, then he'd try to run-out, it was chaos... There was no rhyme or reason to it all!

Dude,
Were you that guy I was playing last night? For the record I wasnt coming up those crazy inconsistent shot selections... I just hit the cue ball and explained away the results...after the shot was finnished:D
 
The decision of whether to runout or not in 8-ball always reminds me of this phrase:

"If your going to go kill the King, you'd better make sure he's dead!" :D


If you are in a race to 10, then I think "killing the king" is the higher percentage way to go. But short races to two, I think you have to be more careful.
 
seymore15074 said:
I only play 9-ball and I'm a firm beleiver that there is only one correct shot at any given time... If the shot is to play safe, you play safe; if the shot is to make a ball and get position, do it; if the shot is to ride the 9-ball, ride it. A safety should not be played for no reason, but sometimes you can play them for a foul-out win...

I shot with a less experienced player last night and it was anoying to watch him play his shots... A safety for no reason then he'd try to ride a next-to-impossible 9-ball, then he'd try to run-out, it was chaos... There was no rhyme or reason to it all!

You shoot the shot that needs to be shot to win --- that is the correct shot - safety, straight in, bank = win.
 
I also believe in playing one shot at a time, if I need to play safe I do, if I can run-out, I go for it. However, I am slightly insulted about all this bar-box lack of skill shit. I primarily play on bar-boxes, hardly get a chance to play on 9-footers, but I promise you I'll still be hard to beat. A good player is a good player period.
 
Years ago in the 8 ball league I played in we had several players who were known for playing a safe game. Didn't matter to them if the runout was on, they'd just tie up the table & pick off a ball once in awhile. I saw some racks that would last close to an hour! All because they didn't want to go for the kill! On a few occasions when they finally decided it was time for them to go for it they'd miss an easy shot & lose the rack! It was almost as if they'd lost their touch after playing safe for so long.
 
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cuetechasaurus said:
[...]
Again, I'm not against safeties, or something like that. I just think people should have a little more guts if they want to win more, IMO. And this does involve percentages. Letting your opponent back to the table when you don't have to, is not playing the percentages, in most cases.

I think you actually have the guts thing backwards. Going for it is the easier path, imo. When you go for it, you either win or you get to feel like you died trying.

Going for it on fourth down in football is the emotionally easier path as well, imo.

It takes guts to strategically let your opponent back to the table knowing you might lose from the chair (even though your overall chance of winning is greater by ducking).

Most offensive 8-ball players are actually pretty lousy at defensive play. So if they just decide--or a teammate convinces them--to be less agressive, they usually do a bad job of it.

Here's one of the best spots I've ever given. A fellow said he didn't want to play me 8-ball because I run out too much. He didn't get a chance at the table. So first I gave him the breaks. Then I gave him the break and the first shot after the break. I was still winning. So next I told him I would guarantee he got at least two turns at the table every game. Then we upped the bet and it turned into three shots at the table every game.

It was a really good exercise for me, just selecting solids and then putting a ball in front of his, or giving him a shot with the wrong angle on his breakout ball, or freeing up my problem and giving him a go at it, or taking out his key ball or tying up the 8-ball, or making one of his balls that was near the pocket, etc. Many people duck at the wrong time or duck too late or don't make sure that when they do get back to the table they are in a better position.
 
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Last Sept. at the regional singles tourney (APA) at Fast Eddies in Alexandria VA, I watched a guy play the best safety pool I'd ever seen. His opponent misses a shot, he gets up to the table, and plays a safety freeing up a problem ball. He gets BIH and free's another problem ball playing another lock up safety. He gets BIH again lines up the correct angle to pocket his last trouble ball and runs out. It was a beautiful thing to see.
I've had a couple guys try and play safe right off of the break in 8 ball, I've got 7 targets on the table and the 2 times it happened I ran out on each guy.
There's a time and a place for everything, if I can't get out, I don't wait til it's too late to try and play safe.

McCue Banger McCue
 
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