Thanks.
Me too! I wasn't born yet, but you know what I mean.
Regards,
Dave
Top 10 Things You Need to Know about THROW
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Regards,
Dave
Excellent example Bob. And good point about the ball contact point speed as compared to the shot speed. All that matters is the relative direction and speed of the CB surface at the point of contact.You very nearly covered every aspect and application of throw, but I have one that I only recently discovered. It is a special case of the near-90 cut shot you showed in part 2 that is played with "excess" or what I call "retrograde" outside spin.
Sometimes the cue ball ends up very nearly touching the object ball and they are not quite pointed to the pocket as in the diagram.
If double hits were allowed, you could just shoot straight at the ball with left. Or, play a fullish cut on the right side of the ball to throw it to the right.
When that close to the ball a very thin hit is condoned by the rules even though the tip may still be on the cue ball when the cue ball hits the object ball.
My solution is to play thin as shown with extreme left to throw the object ball to the right. The degree of throw is exaggerated in the diagram unless by some miracle there is chalk at the contact point.
You do have to hit the shot pretty hard, but that speed does not reduce the throw much because the actual retrograde surface motion is pretty slow.
View attachment 543774
Catch you later,
Dave
FYI, I added a quote of your post to the impossible cuts resource page.You very nearly covered every aspect and application of throw, but I have one that I only recently discovered. It is a special case of the near-90 cut shot you showed in part 2 that is played with "excess" or what I call "retrograde" outside spin.
Sometimes the cue ball ends up very nearly touching the object ball and they are not quite pointed to the pocket as in the diagram.
If double hits were allowed, you could just shoot straight at the ball with left. Or, play a fullish cut on the right side of the ball to throw it to the right.
When that close to the ball a very thin hit is condoned by the rules even though the tip may still be on the cue ball when the cue ball hits the object ball.
My solution is to play thin as shown with extreme left to throw the object ball to the right. The degree of throw is exaggerated in the diagram unless by some miracle there is chalk at the contact point.
You do have to hit the shot pretty hard, but that speed does not reduce the throw much because the actual retrograde surface motion is pretty slow.
View attachment 543774
Regards,
Dave
If you do just give me credit.
I probably won't; but if I did, I would certainly site the source. :thumbup:
Catch you later,
Dave
animatedvmaker
Banned
You mentioned in your video that some pros do not compensate for throw, or fully understand it? I disagree with that. I am sure that any A level, or stronger player is an expert of throw shots, and understands every shot in the book, when it comes to Throw.
Players use throw when needed, in order to get better shape on the next shot, or to get out of certain situations.
I always found myself using what you refer to as spin induced throw on most of my shots, because I always used a lot of English on most of my shots.
Anyways, my point is that I imagine that most decent players (B level or better) fully understand Throw shots.
Players use throw when needed, in order to get better shape on the next shot, or to get out of certain situations.
I always found myself using what you refer to as spin induced throw on most of my shots, because I always used a lot of English on most of my shots.
Anyways, my point is that I imagine that most decent players (B level or better) fully understand Throw shots.
animatedvmaker
Banned
I feel that Throw is a very important thing for a player, who wants to get better, to learn. Throw is needed to get out of a lot of bad situations.
Everything about Throw came naturally to me though, through years of just playing pool, and practicing.
Anyways, I think it is great that you are trying to teach players about situations, and different ways that Throw affects both the cue ball and the object ball.
Have not watched the videos yet (just the 1st one), but I might sometime. I am pretty sure that I already understand everything that I would ever need to know about Throw though.
animatedvmaker
Banned
I am sure that it all comes natural to them, and I am sure that there is nothing that they do not know about using Throw, in any situation, to get the object ball, or the cue ball in positions that they want them to be in. I feel that using throw just comes natural to players through practice, and competing against stronger players.
I have not watched the videos, so there might be things that I never learned about using Throw.
All this scientific stuff is just confusing though.
Good players play by instinct, and do not think about all of this mathematical or scientific stuff while down on the ball. They just know what to do, and it all comes naturally to them.
I think I said something like: Even pro players miss shots at times because they don’t compensate enough for throw. I think this is true. Pros don’t miss often; but when they do, throw is sometimes the culprit.
I agree that any top player knows how to use throw in their game. That doesn’t mean they always account for it perfectly on regular shots where throw might cause a miss.
Agreed.
Regards,
Dave
Agreed.
It is also important to know when and how to compensate for throw, even when you aren’t actively trying to use it on a shot.
Nothing beats solid intuition built up from countless years of successful practice and experience. But not everybody has perfect intuition for all effects, even top players.
Thanks.
Please watch the videos. I think even top players might learn something they didn’t know before. Let me know what you think after you actually watch the videos.
Regards,
Dave
As a “pool player,” I tried to keep the “science” out of the videos and just stick to clear demonstrations of the effects, also showing useful game-situation examples of everything; but sometimes my internal “engineering teacher” can’t help himself and tries to teach some understanding of the effects.
Regards,
Dave
I don’t think about math and science stuff when I play either, but I certainly rely on my practical knowledge and experience when planning a shot. But when I am down on the shot, I don’t think about anything except delivering the cue straight in the desired direction to the chosen tip contact point at the desired speed.
One should not be thinking when one is down on a shot. The thinking and planning should be done while standing.
Regards,
Dave
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Instinct vs Knowledge
People don't always have the same goals, and while we all enjoy pool, we enjoy the game in different ways. Some people enjoy the competition of the game and put an emphasis on developing their skills. Others love the study of pool and just enjoy collecting interesting tidbits like nuanced scientific properties involved. I agree it is important to understand those aren't the same thing, and that the quest for a conceptual understanding of the physics of pool doesn't necessarily translate to a high level of play on the table.
But the two do overlap, and Dr. Dave is a great example. He has two hobbies, he enjoys the study of pool as well as the actual pursuit. He clearly is an industry leader when it comes to the analytic side of the game. But he also enjoys playing the game and putting those theories into practice. I really, really enjoyed watching the racks he put together in the video with Rollie Williams. And even though he gets many takes in his instructional clips, many of the shots he demonstrates would be beyond the realm of anyone that doesn't play strong. And his stroke is really solid, I'm a bit jealous. Bottom line, I'd take him on my AZB pool team anyday!
As for the utility of this knowledge, I too start a bit skeptical. There is a danger to having too much stuff in your head trying to chime in when you're trying to play. An example of this is my best friend who pockets balls so well it brings tears to my eyes. Anytime someone starts talking about aiming systems or sighting or anything like that he excuses himself and leaves the room because he doesn't want to think about it. He just looks at a contact point and sends the ball towards the hole. So keeping your mind clear and playing with feel can definitely be done and is a standard path for many of the elite.
The problem is most professionals also sacrifice their lives to play full time and trek around sparring with world class opponents on a weekly basis. If you play 5-10 hours a day six days a week and follow the tournament trail, great, go ahead and use feel. But for those of us who don't, we have to find another way. The 'hit a million ball' method doesn't work for those who can't hit a million balls! So then it falls on us to find a best approach for ourselves. This is why things like technical knowledge, instruction, drilling, and other things many pros don't prioritize can be beneficial to non-professional players.
I am in the middle. I am definitely not as booked up as Dr. Dave on the science of pool, but when it comes to the strategic side of the game I am extremely analytical. I have put a tremendous amount of thought and study into pattern play for example. Now, every now and again some fearless straight shooter can come along playing mediocre patterns and still climb past me to the top through brute force, at which point their patterns and safety play usually evolve with experience for those who make it to the very top. But those again are the full time players. When I play anyone not at the elite level the study I have put in absolutely does come out in game play and gives me a strong competitive advantage. Dr. Dave is absolutely in that camp, and as he has more time and head space to devote to pool I expect him to show how powerful it is to be armed with a full set of tools and tactical understanding when you go to battle.
In short, yes, you have to be careful of distracting yourself during competition. And yes the world's best put in the hours to replace systematic study. But for those who aren't prepared to sacrifice their entire lives to the game but still want to play their best I would encourage them to take advantage of the resources available.
People don't always have the same goals, and while we all enjoy pool, we enjoy the game in different ways. Some people enjoy the competition of the game and put an emphasis on developing their skills. Others love the study of pool and just enjoy collecting interesting tidbits like nuanced scientific properties involved. I agree it is important to understand those aren't the same thing, and that the quest for a conceptual understanding of the physics of pool doesn't necessarily translate to a high level of play on the table.
But the two do overlap, and Dr. Dave is a great example. He has two hobbies, he enjoys the study of pool as well as the actual pursuit. He clearly is an industry leader when it comes to the analytic side of the game. But he also enjoys playing the game and putting those theories into practice. I really, really enjoyed watching the racks he put together in the video with Rollie Williams. And even though he gets many takes in his instructional clips, many of the shots he demonstrates would be beyond the realm of anyone that doesn't play strong. And his stroke is really solid, I'm a bit jealous. Bottom line, I'd take him on my AZB pool team anyday!
As for the utility of this knowledge, I too start a bit skeptical. There is a danger to having too much stuff in your head trying to chime in when you're trying to play. An example of this is my best friend who pockets balls so well it brings tears to my eyes. Anytime someone starts talking about aiming systems or sighting or anything like that he excuses himself and leaves the room because he doesn't want to think about it. He just looks at a contact point and sends the ball towards the hole. So keeping your mind clear and playing with feel can definitely be done and is a standard path for many of the elite.
The problem is most professionals also sacrifice their lives to play full time and trek around sparring with world class opponents on a weekly basis. If you play 5-10 hours a day six days a week and follow the tournament trail, great, go ahead and use feel. But for those of us who don't, we have to find another way. The 'hit a million ball' method doesn't work for those who can't hit a million balls! So then it falls on us to find a best approach for ourselves. This is why things like technical knowledge, instruction, drilling, and other things many pros don't prioritize can be beneficial to non-professional players.
I am in the middle. I am definitely not as booked up as Dr. Dave on the science of pool, but when it comes to the strategic side of the game I am extremely analytical. I have put a tremendous amount of thought and study into pattern play for example. Now, every now and again some fearless straight shooter can come along playing mediocre patterns and still climb past me to the top through brute force, at which point their patterns and safety play usually evolve with experience for those who make it to the very top. But those again are the full time players. When I play anyone not at the elite level the study I have put in absolutely does come out in game play and gives me a strong competitive advantage. Dr. Dave is absolutely in that camp, and as he has more time and head space to devote to pool I expect him to show how powerful it is to be armed with a full set of tools and tactical understanding when you go to battle.
In short, yes, you have to be careful of distracting yourself during competition. And yes the world's best put in the hours to replace systematic study. But for those who aren't prepared to sacrifice their entire lives to the game but still want to play their best I would encourage them to take advantage of the resources available.
Great videos as usual, Dr. Dave. Timely for me, as I have been thinking about throw effects recently as they pertain to different playing conditions.
When I practice at home on my table with clean balls, I'm subconsciously adjusting for the excellent conditions of my table and balls. When I go to play league, most times (pretty much always!), the balls are not in good condition, resulting in greater throw. I make adjustments, but sometimes I get bit in the rear end on a miss due to more throw than my aiming is accustomed to. My usual adjustment is to aim a bit thinner on shots where throw is in play.
Do you have any thoughts on making an overall adjustment when you know the balls are going to play differently than the ones you practice with?
When I practice at home on my table with clean balls, I'm subconsciously adjusting for the excellent conditions of my table and balls. When I go to play league, most times (pretty much always!), the balls are not in good condition, resulting in greater throw. I make adjustments, but sometimes I get bit in the rear end on a miss due to more throw than my aiming is accustomed to. My usual adjustment is to aim a bit thinner on shots where throw is in play.
Do you have any thoughts on making an overall adjustment when you know the balls are going to play differently than the ones you practice with?
I compensate for throw by aiming the shot at a different spot than center pocket - for instance, a pocket facing (more or less depending on distance, etc). That makes adjusting to different conditions more deliberate and precise for me - for instance, aim at the pocket point instead of the facing.
pj
chgo
Thanks, Patrick . I do that, too. Sometimes it's to the side of the pocket face, other times to the point as you said. When I get bit by throw, it's usually a pressure shot, and I just go into the routine I do on my home table--which doesn't include compensating for the additional throw crappy balls can cause.
Maybe I need a "home" and an "away" pre-shot routine. :grin:
Demetrius,
Excellent post. Very well stated.
I especially like the part about you taking me "on my AZB pool team anyday!" :thumbup:
Thank you for the vote of confidence. I know you can really play, so I really appreciate that.
I hope we get to meet soon. I would love to work on something together with you, maybe a YouTube instructional video.
Catch you later,
Dave
FYI, I just added a quote of your post to the following page that might be of interest to people who enjoyed your post:
knowledge can be useful, but you still need skill
These related pages might also be of interest:
physics “understanding” sometimes provides useful insight
learning vs. intuition
Regards,
Dave
Thanks!
It is always a good practice to test out certain things before playing on an unfamiliar table. Checking how much balls throw is something your might include on that list (e.g., checking how much a frozen combo throws). That way, you will know how much you need to adjust compared to what you are used to. FYI, here's a good table check-out list.
Regards,
Dave