Top 3 Most Marketable US Players (Male)

[oceanweb]

What the Hell is the matter with ya People ??? Am I not good enuff for marketing ? Go on, Laugh at me and I'll hit ya with my cue stick!

I can't believe this post. Earl has done more for the sport of pool than George Bush and Dick Cheney have done for the good ole' United States combined

Examples of his contribututions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVXb7-xSLfo

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkecRYQDnAw

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EmcM_AzItA

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXAPSHF0dXo

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

I can't believe this post. Earl has done more for the sport of pool than George Bush and Dick Cheney have done for the good ole' United States combined

Ehem, Again... that was Earl making that remark why his name wasn't included in the poll being a great asset to the pool game. If you read the succeeding posts, you will see what I mean ! So better believe it dude !

 

[JAM]

I used Alex as an example not because he's American, BUT because you bagged the European/Asian robots (I'm not sure what u meant but would you class Corey as a robot also?). Alex is living proof that you can have personality in spades without crossing the line like Earl does.

No, Corey Deuel is not a robot. Yes, Alex is living proof that you can have personality in spades, but he ain't American, the topic of this thread.

...Don't you agree that one of the reasons the womens tour has outshone the mens in the states is the much lower risk to sponsors?....

I absolutely do not agree that the reason for the WPBA's success has to do with the American women players outshining the American men players.

I happen to think there's a lot going on behind the scenes for the men's tour here in the States. A newly formed men's tour, with no track record, was given the authority to be the governing body of professional pool, and for whatever reason, it didn't seem to take off as planned. Currently, some of the admin of the newly formed men's tour seemed to have performed a mutiny, jumped ship, leaving the UPA out at sea. Somebody pocketed some dough during this time, but I didn't see too many of the players coming out on top.

It's a case of history repeating itself when it comes to competitive pool in America, at least for the men. Organizations come and go, and when the dust settles, the players are in Nowhere Land. Somebody makes money, but it is not the players themselves.

Why would any respectable company take that risk? Yep give me a few rodney's and Alex's over some of the "robots" as you say but I'd rather have 50 "robots" and a million dollar tour any day of the week...One mans gentleman is another mans robot

And yours and my desires for what we'd like to see as professional pool doesn't matter one iota. Pool is suffering because there is no interest in it in mainstream America. What you and I think doesn't matter a hill of beans. Pool needs a personality to put it on the map here in the States. Emotionless robots ain't gonna get us there.

JAM

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

No, Corey Deuel is not a robot. Yes, Alex is living proof that you can have personality in spades, but he ain't American, the topic of this thread.



I absolutely do not agree that the reason for the WPBA's success has to do with the American women players outshining the American men players.

I happen to think there's a lot going on behind the scenes for the men's tour here in the States. A newly formed men's tour, with no track record, was given the authority to be the governing body of professional pool, and for whatever reason, it didn't seem to take off as planned. Currently, some of the admin of the newly formed men's tour seemed to have performed a mutiny, jumped ship, leaving the UPA out at sea. Somebody pocketed some dough during this time, but I didn't see too many of the players coming out on top.

It's a case of history repeating itself when it comes to competitive pool in America, at least for the men. Organizations come and go, and when the dust settles, the players are in Nowhere Land. Somebody makes money, but it is not the players themselves.



And yours and my desires for what we'd like to see as professional pool doesn't matter one iota. Pool is suffering because there is no interest in it in mainstream America. What you and I think doesn't matter a hill of beans. Pool needs a personality to put it on the map here in the States. Emotionless robots ain't gonna get us there.

JAM

In short, JAM's point is would people be interested to play pool if the ones who are endorsing it are skilled yet virtually unknown characters due to their robotic behaviors? that's why tournament directors and endorsement firms invite pool personalities that would boost the interest and popularity of pool in the U.S. there are a lot of great players in the U.S. but sadly, there are only a few who could make such an impact to the game that will bolster the position of the pool game in the U.S. there are scenarios where there are empty seats in tournaments. not because the players ain't that good but they don't have the charisma to draw crowds.

 

[JG-in-KY]

Has anybody mentioned this man?

 

[JAM]

In short, JAM's point is would people be interested to play pool if the ones who are endorsing it are skilled yet virtually unknown characters due to their robotic behaviors? that's why tournament directors and endorsement firms invite pool personalities that would boost the interest and popularity of pool in the U.S. there are a lot of great players in the U.S. but sadly, there are only a few who could make such an impact to the game that will bolster the position of the pool game in the U.S. there are scenarios where there are empty seats in tournaments. not because the players ain't that good but they don't have the charisma to draw crowds.

Great minds think alike, Hail Mary Shot!

Pocket billiards in America is a no-win situation, with plenty of politics and back-stabbing. Older players are oftentimes forgotten. Some believe they should be eliminated from high-profile events, which should be reserved for younger "more marketable," as they say, players. The gamblers, hustlers, and road warriors are the proverbial black sheep in the eyes of the Americal pool culture. Yet, it's these players that seem to generate excitement wherever they play. It's the stuff that books are written about, to include movies. This is American pool, not emotionless robots.

If only the pool in America could garner the respect as American music, musicians old and young and from all walks of life. Hank Williams Sr. was 6-foot-2, weighing in at 140 pounds, and usually performed when he was high as the Georgia pine. Yet, even today, he is heralded as the best in country music.

Check out this American jam session: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icMTVV5Lwaw

While you're watching it, try to envision:

Earl Scruggs as Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, and Grady Mathews.
Vince Gill as Troy Frank, Corey Deuel, and Shane Van Boeing.
Joe Walsh as Danny Diliberto, Jimmy Reid, and Larry Lisciotti.
Marty Stewart as Ginky, Reid Pierce, and Gabe Owen.
Steve Martin as Tony Robles, John Schmidt, and Earl Strickland.
Paul Schaeffer as Larry Nevel, Shannon Daulton, and Jimmy Mendoza.

All of these musicians together blend well, each having their own distinct personality, but it works. Too bad pool in the United States doesn't garner the same respect. If it did, we could all enjoy pool at its finest. I don't think it will ever happen in my lifetime. American pool needs a personality, not robots. JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

 

[TheOne]

I can't believe this post. Earl has done more for the sport of pool than George Bush and Dick Cheney have done for the good ole' United States combined

Examples of his contribututions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVXb7-xSLfo

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkecRYQDnAw

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EmcM_AzItA

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXAPSHF0dXo

LMAO, I think I should stop here lol!

JAM,

I suspected you wouldn't class corey as a robot, is it because he's American? But interestingly I've heard many Americans call him this when he plays. He's normally emotionless, and almost all of his racks are the same! I actually think corey is still one of most marketable Americans. I'm sure your European/Asian comment wasn't a racist comment but can you clarify what you meant by "robots" an maybe list a few Americans you think fall into your category?

Thankfully though both the European and Asian robotic tours seem to be attracting great TV exposure contrary to your opinion! It's good to see that not everybody wants to turn the game of pool into a WWF style circus and can appreciate it in its purest form. Hey even Guiness saw the value in sponsoring an Asian tour, the most robotic of robotic I'm told lol

For some reason this topic reminds me of when I first came to America back in 94 to watch the football (the one where u use your feet mostly) world cup. There was talk that the host nation wanted to widen the goals to make it more entertaining and even suggested using TWO footballs lol Thankfully they left it as it is, a wide decission of course since over 200 nations liked it the way it was and it's the most watched/played sport ever invented!

We both want mens pool in America to grow but I fear your opinions that a professional player can act as he likes is mutually exclusive to this dream.

PS
forget I mentioned Alex, I think most people got my point though

 

[JAM]

JAM,

I suspected you wouldn't class corey as a robot, is it because he's American? But interestingly I've heard many Americans call him this when he plays. He's normally emotionless, and almost all of his racks are the same! I actually think corey is still one of most marketable Americans.

Maybe you have to know Corey a bit to see the emotion in his game, but he's definitely not a robot. In fact, when his tournament matches conclude, he is one of the most sought-after players for pictures and autographs. He doesn't run and hide in his hotel room, like his European counterparts, when his play is complete.

I'm sure your European/Asian comment wasn't a racist comment but can you clarify what you meant by "robots" an maybe list a few Americans you think fall into your category?

When you attend as many tournaments as I have in the past 5 years on AMERICAN soil, maybe you would understand my point. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched the finals of week-long events, only to see EMPTY seats in the stands. Nobody seems to be interested in watching the champions compete. Yet, these are the finalists.

I can guarantee you that if these same final matches were to include, say, Earl Strickland, the place would be PACKED!

Thankfully though both the European and Asian robotic tours seem to be attracting great TV exposure contrary to your opinion! It's good to see that not everybody wants to turn the game of pool into a WWF style circus and can appreciate it in its purest form. Hey even Guiness saw the value in sponsoring an Asian tour, the most robotic of robotic I'm told lol

Well, not too long ago, Craig, the Filipinos, Asian-Pacific Islanders, and Europeans all flocked to American soil, wanting to compete in United States tournaments because, quite frankly, the monies weren't that good back in their homelands. Now they form their own tours and exclude Americans. Nice deal.

We both want mens pool in America to grow but I fear your opinions that a professional player can act as he likes is mutually exclusive to this dream.

We both want the same ends, Craig, but I don't think we agree on how to get there. Like Sigel and Hopkins, I'm hoping to seek a pot of gold in pool in another way. Time is against me, but I'm still gonna try!

JAM

 

[gopi-1]

Since you guys want some image, some substance, then the best choice is Jeaneth Lee.

I definitely agree with you crosseyedjoe! She's the face that can launch a thousand pool tables!

 

[sjm]

Geezy peezy, SJM. Here I thought you and I were finally on the same side of the tracks.

What would you suggest the older pool players in America do, the ones who have devoted their entire life to the game/sport? Just shove them under a rug and forget about 'em?

Earl Strickland ain't that old, as far as I'm concerned, and pool could use a few more just like him, not only for his talent, but because he has personality and isn't afraid to show a little emotion, unlike the robotic pool players from Europe who pocket American tournament monies, show absolutely no emotion, and immediately leave every venue they compete in when their matches are concluded. After they pocket the American dough, of course.

Pool could use a few more Earls. Go to any tournament and see who the spectators are watching. Promoters want Earl in the house to ensure a good attendance. Without the Earls of the world, they can just move all of pool over to Philippines and take the Europeans with them. America has turned its back on American pool players, and it is sickening to me.

JAM

Before I answer, let me start by saying that I have neither said nor implied in any of my 5,000+ posts that the veteran American players are less entitled to enjoy everything American pro pool has to give than the younger players. The "old guard" matter very much in our sport.

As for whether we're on the same side of the tracks, JAM, we are certainly not on the matter of Earl Strickland. We both see him as a legendary player and a solid entertainer, but only I see his countless acts of selfishness and disrespect toward the pool establishment, tournament directors and officials, his fellow pros, and the fans as a problem. You give him a free pass. I say he's a continual threat to American pool's dignity, and that he has compromised it far too often in a way that makes our sport less credible and less appealing to potential sponsors. You don't care, calling him colorful. So what if his act causes the sparse crowds we find at pool tournaments to flock around him? That says very little about his qualifications to be one of pool's poster boys.

JAM, I have and always will hold you and your opinions in very high regard. Like me, you've attended hundreds of American men's pool tournaments, so I know your points of view are those of a scholar of the American men's pro scene, the same scene I've been around for over 30 years as a fan, as a player sponsor, and in other capacities.

The biggest difference between us, philosophically, is that you think American men's pro pool is a great product marketed and supported poorly, and I see it as a mediocre product marketed poorly, but a product that could be great. To me, if it became great, it would be far easier to market.

I feel that the way many of the American pro players conduct themselves leaves a lot of room for improvement, and that their conduct is part of what makes American men's pro pool a mediocre product. I think that these players need to take greater responsibility for the state of their sport, yet you regularly take exception to those, like me, that assign some of the responsibility for the state of Amercian men's pro pool to the players themselves.

Obviously, it's all a matter of opinion, but that's the beauty of the AZB forum for me --- getting to converse with other scholars of the pool scene like yourself.

Wishing you, Keith, and American pro pool everything that's good.

 

[JAM]

Before I answer, let me start by saying that I have neither said nor implied in any of my 5,000+ posts that the veteran American players are less entitled to enjoy everything American pro pool has to give than the younger players. The "old guard" matter very much in our sport.

Wow. You hit the 5,000 mark? Jolly good show! I'm on my way!

I am very happy to read this, SJM, coming from you. You see, I was told by a UPA member a couple years back that some of the UPA admin staff were stating they wanted to get rid of the "old guard," to include Keith McCready. At the time, the WPC player selection was in progress, and some of the "old guard" UPA members were ranked higher than younger UPA members. Yet, some of the younger UPA members went to the WPC, even though according to the ranking system, they should not have been eligible when older UPA members were ranked HIGHER.

As for whether we're on the same side of the tracks, JAM, we are certainly not on the matter of Earl Strickland.

I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Earl Strickland. Maybe it is because I know Earl Strickland the person a wee bit. He is not the bad boy that some seem to think. In fact, he is an American champion, and at a time when he was on top of his game around the world, a time when his triumphs should have been celebrated, the American culture turned their backs on American players. It's sickening to be the BEST in a sport and have no support in good old U.S. of A.

Obviously, it's all a matter of opinion, but that's the beauty of the AZB forum for me --- getting to converse with other scholars of the pool scene like yourself.

And I could not agree more with you on this point, SJM. It's always a pleasure to read your posts.

JAM

 

[TheOne]

Maybe you have to know Corey a bit to see the emotion in his game, but he's definitely not a robot. In fact, when his tournament matches conclude, he is one of the most sought-after players for pictures and autographs. He doesn't run and hide in his hotel room, like his European counterparts, when his play is complete.

I'm still struggling with your robot analogy So are you saying all the Europeans and Asians are robots becuase they don't sign autographs?

When you attend as many tournaments as I have in the past 5 years on AMERICAN soil, maybe you would understand my point. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched the finals of week-long events, only to see EMPTY seats in the stands. Nobody seems to be interested in watching the champions compete. Yet, these are the finalists.

I get the impression you've never left America before but I can probably help here. I can assure you that everytime I have watched pool in EUROPE, ASIA, and the USA it is almost always like this, no matter who's in the finals. Most players don't stick around to watch once theyve lost and IMO most tournaments don't do enough to market the events.

I can guarantee you that if these same final matches were to include, say, Earl Strickland, the place would be PACKED!

If this is the case then why do you think some tournament sponsors would not want him to play? I think this highlights the point I'm trying to make perfectly.

Well, not too long ago, Craig, the Filipinos, Asian-Pacific Islanders, and Europeans all flocked to American soil, wanting to compete in United States tournaments because, quite frankly, the monies weren't that good back in their homelands. Now they form their own tours and exclude Americans. Nice deal.

You keep bringing this up and although I do sympathise slightly with the asian tour you already know that the European tour is open to anyone. The fact is that although both these tours are growing and attracting better sponsors and more TV coverage it wouldn't be financially viable for American players to travel to play in either.

We both want the same ends, Craig, but I don't think we agree on how to get there. Like Sigel and Hopkins, I'm hoping to seek a pot of gold in pool in another way. Time is against me, but I'm still gonna try!

JAM

It seems that way. I can kind of see why you have your views even if I don't think yours are as impartial and admittidly idealistic as mine. Luckily I haven't experienced much pool politics like it seems you have and I don't rely on pool at all for income. But I think everyone in pool should try to unite and move forward and stop bringing up the past as difficult as that may be.

You seem to blame the WPA and NOT the American body for the US tour problems, and now you seem to be blaming the European and Asian players instead of the American players for the lack of interest in US events! I hope one day you will see that this is pretty improbable and pool in the USA would never move forward if everybody shared your views.

Good luck with with your pot of gold, I still hope to see you and kieth on my travels, he can give me a thrashing (pool of course! ). btw I bought the COM on DVD the other day, was funny to recognize a few faces, didn't kieth look dapper!

 

[kevin s]

All pool players are marketable

I think Earl is a great accomplished player of which I'm a fan.
I dont think pool will every be the Martha Stewart Show but Jerry Springer pool would sell some tickets. I suppose that pool speaks for itself. Matches are played.Champions are crowned. The rest as far as a marketable aspect is up to the producers of programming. I thought the IPT did a good job with their shows. It has to be exciting or atleast interesting to someone that isn't into pool like we all are.My vote for three very marketable pool players would be:
1- Rodney Morris - a friend of mine and he is a first class champion
2-Stevie Moore - been all over the country won tons of games and still gets played because he is a clean cut first class gentleman of the game.
3-Johny Archer - lets face it he is a very well known Champion

And by the way, why do I only get three??

 

[JAM]

I'm still struggling with your robot analogy So are you saying all the Europeans and Asians are robots becuase they don't sign autographs?

So sorry for your struggle, Craig.

I am stating that the emotionless robotic nature of the European style of play is not conducive to attracting more AMERICANS to the sport here in America. The emotionless robotic style of play is not confined to Europeans.

It would be nice if the European players who compete on American soil would at least attempt to help promote the sport by engaging with American pool folk, whether it be fans, spectators and/or enthusiasts. Usually, when matches are completed, they make a beeline for the exit, unless, of course, they are collecting their American tournament monies first.

I get the impression you've never left America before but I can probably help here. I can assure you that everytime I have watched pool in EUROPE, ASIA, and the USA it is almost always like this, no matter who's in the finals. Most players don't stick around to watch once theyve lost and IMO most tournaments don't do enough to market the events.

I do not agree with you on this point. There are some AMERICAN players who do help promote the sport after they play their matches.

If this is the case then why do you think some tournament sponsors would not want him to play? I think this highlights the point I'm trying to make perfectly.

I don't know where you've been shooting pool, but every single tournament promoter and/or director I know in America would welcome Earl Strickland's attendance to their events with open arms.

You keep bringing this up and although I do sympathise slightly with the asian tour you already know that the European tour is open to anyone. The fact is that although both these tours are growing and attracting better sponsors and more TV coverage it wouldn't be financially viable for American players to travel to play in either.

I would like to see American pool grow, but I find is very insulting that the Asian-Pacific Islanders come here to compete on American soil, where everyone, no matter what their nationality, creed, or religion is welcome, and the same courtesy is not given to American players on foreign soil.

It seems that way. I can kind of see why you have your views even if I don't think yours are as impartial and admittidly idealistic as mine. Luckily I haven't experienced much pool politics like it seems you have and I don't rely on pool at all for income. But I think everyone in pool should try to unite and move forward and stop bringing up the past as difficult as that may be.

When you shoot pool for a living and an individual or entity puts up stop signs and hurdles preventing you from doing so, it is discrimination. We don't condone that here in America. Yet, in the American pool world, the discriminatory actions have harmed some pool players and, in essence, pool as a sport.

You seem to blame the WPA and NOT the American body for the US tour problems, and now you seem to be blaming the European and Asian players instead of the American players for the lack of interest in US events! I hope one day you will see that this is pretty improbable and pool in the USA would never move forward if everybody shared your views.

I don't know much about the WPA because they have not exerted an effort to have a presence here in the States, by their own choice. I am not blaming European and Asian players for lack of interest in U.S. events, but at least while they are pocketing American monies, they could exert some effort to promote the sport here in America.

Good luck with with your pot of gold, I still hope to see you and kieth on my travels, he can give me a thrashing (pool of course! ). btw I bought the COM on DVD the other day, was funny to recognize a few faces, didn't kieth look dapper!

TCOM is a movie about American pool. Today, the American pool culture is dying. Many within the American pool culture think American pros are the scum of the earth. There is one school of thought that gambling is the culprit. Yet, movies are made about it, and when you go to, say, the DCC and see the thousands of attendees each and every January, it would seem that gambling is what folks want to see. They won't crowd the finals table of a tournament, but give them a match between two American road warriors for a chunk of cheese, and it will be standing room only, which proves my point.

JAM

 

[TheOne]

So sorry for your struggle, Craig.
I am stating that the emotionless robotic nature of the European style of play is not conducive to attracting more AMERICANS to the sport here in America. The emotionless robotic style of play is not confined to Europeans.
It would be nice if the European players who compete on American soil would at least attempt to help promote the sport by engaging with American pool folk, whether it be fans, spectators and/or enthusiasts. Usually, when matches are completed, they make a beeline for the exit, unless, of course, they are collecting their American tournament monies first.

I can honestly say having played in all 3 of the regions we are talking about I've never noticed a difference. Because of the financial hardships of pool which I'm sure you are much aware 99% of players make a "beeline for the exit" as soon as they lose, it's just too expensive to hang around. When I played at a few tournaments in the US with some ozzie friends we where quite well received. A few people commented that they liked the fact that most of the guys I was with played with a smile on their faces and hung out at the bar afterwards etc.

I do not agree with you on this point. There are some AMERICAN players who do help promote the sport after they play their matches.

I'm sure you'll find that their an equal amount of American players that bugger off after they've lost as there are Europeans who like a drink at the bar etc.

I don't know where you've been shooting pool, but every single tournament promoter and/or director I know in America would welcome Earl Strickland's attendance to their events with open arms.

Hmmm, no comment!

I would like to see American pool grow, but I find is very insulting that the Asian-Pacific Islanders come here to compete on American soil, where everyone, no matter what their nationality, creed, or religion is welcome, and the same courtesy is not given to American players on foreign soil.

I agree to some extent, you'd think that an Irish global business like Guiness would be on the phone to Earl as we speak begging him to play and bring his millions of fans with him to pack out the events wouldn't you!

When you shoot pool for a living and an individual or entity puts up stop signs and hurdles preventing you from doing so, it is discrimination. We don't condone that here in America. Yet, in the American pool world, the discriminatory actions have harmed some pool players and, in essence, pool as a sport.

From what I hear it was mainly Americans doing it to Americans? Hey we blame the Germans for everything in England but are you really sure it's their fault?

I don't know much about the WPA because they have not exerted an effort to have a presence here in the States, by their own choice. I am not blaming European and Asian players for lack of interest in U.S. events, but at least while they are pocketing American monies, they could exert some effort to promote the sport here in America.

It's not the WPA's responsibility to promote pool in the USA, they passed this onto the BCA for the same reasons the EPBF promote pool in Europe and APBU in Asia.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member

TCOM is a movie about American pool. Today, the American pool culture is dying. Many within the American pool culture think American pros are the scum of the earth. There is one school of thought that gambling is the culprit. Yet, movies are made about it, and when you go to, say, the DCC and see the thousands of attendees each and every January, it would seem that gambling is what folks want to see. They won't crowd the finals table of a tournament, but give them a match between two American road warriors for a chunk of cheese, and it will be standing room only, which proves my point.
JAM

Now I'm really confused, didn't you say that gambling was a disease? Is this what you consider the way forward for professional pool?

How many sponsors or added money do you see in these back room match ups?

I'm not sure what point it proves but I'm sure that the same people would be their to watch a couple of boring "Asian / European robots" like Chamat v Alex Pag who don't allow their behavior to cross the line.

At the end of the day it seems that the behavior you don't like: players being focused, emotionless, retiring to their rooms after/between matches, etc etc is the type of behavior we see in every other sport that's made it to the big time - its called professionalism!

I know many people describe the Asians as robots, I heard Earl mocking them once at the WPC in Asia while doing a robot dance However I don't think it's a coincidence that Guinness, the biggest sponsor pool has attracted in some time has been attracted by the Asian tour. As a sponsor it's a real safe bet and thankfully millions of people disagree with you and love to watch them live on TV!

 

[bruin70]

i'm at a loss.

 

[JAM]

I can honestly say having played in all 3 of the regions we are talking about I've never noticed a difference. Because of the financial hardships of pool which I'm sure you are much aware 99% of players make a "beeline for the exit" as soon as they lose, it's just too expensive to hang around. When I played at a few tournaments in the US with some ozzie friends we where quite well received. A few people commented that they liked the fact that most of the guys I was with played with a smile on their faces and hung out at the bar afterwards etc.

Craig, I am trying to stay on topic with this thread: marketing of AMERICANmale pool players.

The European players come to American soil to compete in American events. The more the merrier, I say. Unlike other countries, I am proud to be an American where we open our doors and allow anybody to compete in our pool events. I cannot say the same about other nations and how they welcome American pool players.

There are some in the American pool culture, if you get a chance to read the numerous threads on this forum, as I have, that state American pool players do not give back to the sport, do not promote themselves, do not do a damn thing to help pool here in the States; that, in fact, it is the American pool players who are at fault for pool in the States being so unpopular.

My point is what do the Europeans do when they are competing in American events? Should they be exempt from promoting pool here in America, but still pocket the tournament monies, without giving back? Their style of play to me is boring, emotionless and robotic.

I'm sure you'll find that their an equal amount of American players that bugger off after they've lost as there are Europeans who like a drink at the bar etc.

And I agree with you, which is my whole point, Craig. Pool players, no matter what color, nationality, religion, or creed, should make an attempt to promote the very sport they are in. To not give back, as the readers of this forum have posted MANY times, is not a good thing. If our European and Asian counterparts want to compete in America, they should also be doing their part to promote pool in America.

I agree to some extent, you'd think that an Irish global business like Guiness would be on the phone to Earl as we speak begging him to play and bring his millions of fans with him to pack out the events wouldn't you!

No. I think Guiness is looking at a market where pool is popular. Why should they invest in American pool? Look at the American pool culture and hear some of the opinions expressed, how gambling and hustling is a dirty little secret of pool. Go to the DCC, and gambling and hustling is rampant and unrestrained. Look at "The Color of Money" movie and how it boosted American pool. The movie was about hustling.

It's not the WPA's responsibility to promote pool in the USA, they passed this onto the BCA for the same reasons the EPBF promote pool in Europe and APBU in Asia.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=member

And if it's not the WPA's responsibility to promote pool in America, their presence here in the States seems to me to pale in comparison to their presence in European countries. This is my opinion, speaking as an American. I don't see much effort on the WPA's part to have any involvement with American pool, unless, of course, it is pocketing a fee to any organizer who wants to have a pool tournament with world-class players. Then, all of a sudden, the WPA makes a presence in the U.S. with their hands open for the American organizations to give them monies for the privilege of hosting a tournament.

Now I'm really confused, didn't you say that gambling was a disease? Is this what you consider the way forward for professional pool?

How many sponsors or added money do you see in these back room match ups?

There are not any sponsors in the back-room matches. Truth be told, there isn't enough sponsorship in the tournaments either. The pool industry in America is stretched thin. They can only do so much. Pool in America needs outside sponsorship.

I'm not sure what point it proves but I'm sure that the same people would be their to watch a couple of boring "Asian / European robots" like Chamat v Alex Pag who don't allow their behavior to cross the line.

Hey, I never said Alex Pagulayan was boring. Never.

At the end of the day it seems that the behavior you don't like: players being focused, emotionless, retiring to their rooms after/between matches, etc etc is the type of behavior we see in every other sport that's made it to the big time - its called professionalism!

If everybody felt the way you do, then pool would be in worse shape than it is today. It is not called "professionalism." It's called a blue-blooded stuck-up attitude in that some pool players think they are better than others and do not need to give back to the sport.

I know many people describe the Asians as robots, I heard Earl mocking them once at the WPC in Asia while doing a robot dance.

Right on, Earl! He knows what's happened to American pool. Here's a guy who's reached heights in pool that some may never realize here in the States.

America has turned its back on its champions, criticizing them for not giving back to the sport. I guess in your eyes, Craig, European players are exempt from this, and only American players are the culprits.

Why can't the Brits align themselves with Americans in pool, as they do in other international affairs? I hope that your viewpoint as a Brit is in the minority, Craig.

JAM

 

[JAM]

i'm at a loss.

So too are American pool players who compete professionally.

JAM

 

[TheOne]

Craig, I am trying to stay on topic with this thread: marketing of AMERICANmale pool players.

The European players come to American soil to compete in American events. The more the merrier, I say. Unlike other countries, I am proud to be an American where we open our doors and allow anybody to compete in our pool events. I cannot say the same about other nations and how they welcome American pool players.

There are some in the American pool culture, if you get a chance to read the numerous threads on this forum, as I have, that state American pool players do not give back to the sport, do not promote themselves, do not do a damn thing to help pool here in the States; that, in fact, it is the American pool players who are at fault for pool in the States being so unpopular.

My point is what do the Europeans do when they are competing in American events? Should they be exempt from promoting pool here in America, but still pocket the tournament monies, without giving back? Their style of play to me is boring, emotionless and robotic.



And I agree with you, which is my whole point, Craig. Pool players, no matter what color, nationality, religion, or creed, should make an attempt to promote the very sport they are in. To not give back, as the readers of this forum have posted MANY times, is not a good thing. If our European and Asian counterparts want to compete in America, they should also be doing their part to promote pool in America.



No. I think Guiness is looking at a market where pool is popular. Why should they invest in American pool? Look at the American pool culture and hear some of the opinions expressed, how gambling and hustling is a dirty little secret of pool. Go to the DCC, and gambling and hustling is rampant and unrestrained. Look at "The Color of Money" movie and how it boosted American pool. The movie was about hustling.



And if it's not the WPA's responsibility to promote pool in America, their presence here in the States seems to me to pale in comparison to their presence in European countries. This is my opinion, speaking as an American. I don't see much effort on the WPA's part to have any involvement with American pool, unless, of course, it is pocketing a fee to any organizer who wants to have a pool tournament with world-class players. Then, all of a sudden, the WPA makes a presence in the U.S. with their hands open for the American organizations to give them monies for the privilege of hosting a tournament.



There are not any sponsors in the back-room matches. Truth be told, there isn't enough sponsorship in the tournaments either. The pool industry in America is stretched thin. They can only do so much. Pool in America needs outside sponsorship.



Hey, I never said Alex Pagulayan was boring. Never.


If everybody felt the way you do, then pool would be in worse shape than it is today. It is not called "professionalism." It's called a blue-blooded stuck-up attitude in that some pool players think they are better than others and do not need to give back to the sport.



Right on, Earl! He knows what's happened to American pool. Here's a guy who's reached heights in pool that some may never realize here in the States.

America has turned its back on its champions, criticizing them for not giving back to the sport. I guess in your eyes, Craig, European players are exempt from this, and only American players are the culprits.

Why can't the Brits align themselves with Americans in pool, as they do in other international affairs? I hope that your viewpoint as a Brit is in the minority, Craig.

JAM

It was YOU who brought up European and Asian players (btw Alex is Asian!) by stereo typing them all as "robots" and blaming them for the demise of American pool tour. Truth be told it had nothing to do with them at all but it was a rather flamboyant American conman who stuck two fingers up at the WPA as you do without fully understanding its merits and look what happened.

I took exception to this and the fact you think any player can act as he pleases without any consideration to the damage it might do to the sport he plays in. You seem to think a player cheating is more marketable than a player acting professional? I have it seems unsuccessfully tried to show you that any player no matter where they come from can be ENTERTAINING AND PROFESSIONAL!

I have never said Europeans are exempt, I just don't see what you are describing, I think it is a fantasy that only Europeans and Asians (as you singled out) don't give back to the sport when they play in America. I am 100% sure that an equal number of players are entertaining and an equal number are more professional and handle the pressure of competing in a different way.

I can assure you that my opinion on cheats thankfully is in the overwhelming majority! As is my opinion on remarks that stereo type two whole continents of people and label all gamblers diseased! You will be disappointed to hear that most Brits are shocked when they see some of the cheating that happens in pool, I hear it all the time.

SJM always sums it up much better than me but I totally agree with his opinion on this topic.

I want players to act professional and understand the damage their behavior can do to the sport as a whole which ultimately affects their fellow professionals. IMO their is no place in any sport for cheating AND their should be a code of conduct that all players adhere too.

Thankfully almost every other professional sport realizes both these principles, I would rather pool stays where it is than sell out both these principles as it seems you desire.

 

[JAM]

It was YOU who brought up European and Asian players (btw Alex is Asian!....

Yes, I know, by way of Canada.

...by stereotyping them all as "robots" and blaming them for the demise of American pool tour.

I did not blame the European robots for the demise of American pool. Try not to take words out of context, Craig.

I did state, however, that their style of play on American television sets is boring, emotionless, and robotic. If they play here in America, they are, in essence, contributing to American pool when it is televised on American TV.

Truth be told it had nothing to do with them at all but it was a rather flamboyant American conman who stuck two fingers up at the WPA as you do without fully understanding its merits and look what happened.

Let's get the story right. It was the WPA who approached "your" flamboyant American conman, DEMANDING a fee for the privilege of "your" flamboyant American conman to invest tens of millions of dollars in American pool. The WPA seems to show up on American soil if they can pocket some American dough.

I took exception to this and the fact you think any player can act as he pleases without any consideration to the damage it might do to the sport he plays in. You seem to think a player cheating is more marketable than a player acting professional? I have it seems unsuccessfully tried to show you that any player no matter where they come from can be ENTERTAINING AND PROFESSIONAL!

Again, you are taking words out of context, and I hasten to say this thread is becoming a back-and-forth colloquy between your view and my view. Where, Craig, did I say a player cheating is more marketable than a player acting professionally?

I have never said Europeans are exempt, I just don't see what you are describing, I think it is a fantasy that only Europeans and Asians (as you singled out) don't give back to the sport when they play in America. I am 100% sure that an equal number of players are entertaining and an equal number are more professional and handle the pressure of competing in a different way.

And your point?

I have no fantasy that it is only Europeans and Asians. I singled them out because these European and Asian players have flocked to the United States in the droves, looking to pocket some American pool monies. The Korean ladies seemed to like American pool because, quite frankly, there was a time when Korea tournaments for women didn't pay very well.

I can assure you that my opinion on cheats thankfully is in the overwhelming majority! As is my opinion on remarks that stereo type two whole continents of people and label all gamblers diseased! You will be disappointed to hear that most Brits are shocked when they see some of the cheating that happens in pool, I hear it all the time.

Where in the world, Craig, have you gotten this cheating agenda? I don't recall mentioning pool players cheating.

SJM always sums it up much better than me but I totally agree with his opinion on this topic.

I want players to act professional and understand the damage their behavior can do to the sport as a whole which ultimately affects their fellow professionals. IMO there is no place in any sport for cheating AND their should be a code of conduct that all players adhere too.

Thankfully almost every other professional sport realizes both these principles, I would rather pool stays where it is than sell out both these principles as it seems you desire.

Now you're fishing. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER condoned cheating. Yet, you now bring it up in this thread. WTF!

JAM