Touch of Center

[ENGLISH!]

Curious as to why you slip this in every other post?? and also include it in your tag line??

It is simply to make known that I am not a beginner or an inexperienced player. I have only been on AZB since June 2012.

When you make your statement about none of these guys could hit the cue ball 3 times in the same place, I have no idea of your playing experience so I could very easily say, 'this guy obviously has no real understanding of what is important'.

Do you? or was that sarcasm.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Clearly the longer one has been playing, the more one knows. This is why Grady Mathews was such a smart player, and why the old guys at the rail always tell you what you did wrong after the shot.

Sarcasm noted.

 

[Philthepockets]

It is simply to make known that I am not a beginner or an inexperienced player. I have only been on AZB since June 2012.

When you make your staement about none of these guys could hit the cue ball 3 times in the same place, I have no idea of your playing experience so I good very easily say, 'this guy obviously has no real understanding of what is important'.

Do you? or was that sarcasm.

This fellow has not even been alive 46 years lol
http://youtu.be/8Ml6-bU5Gx0
Would his opinion be questioned?

I have watched quite a few videos of the "Experts" on here and I stand by my statement, this includes ex pros and current ones with severe cross strokes lol.
They profess all this rubbish and don't even know really how they do what they do. Do something long enough and the technique matters not. Success in spite of it all I suppose.
One fellow uses BHE CTE and TOI he must look like a pretzel when he shoots.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This fellow has not even been alive 46 years lol
http://youtu.be/8Ml6-bU5Gx0
Would his opinion be questioned?

I have watched quite a few videos of the "Experts" on here and I stand by my statement, this includes ex pros and current ones with severe cross strokes lol.
They profess all this rubbish and don't even know really how they do what they do. Do something long enough and the technique matters not. Success in spite of it all I suppose.
One fellow uses BHE CTE and TOI he must look like a pretzel when he shoots.

Yes, obviously. I do not mean to suggest that time & experience alone garners ability.

But time & experience can garner some knowledge. If I told you to hit a certain cut shot low so you don't scatch & a newbie told you to just hit center & you won't scratch, who's advice would you take if you yourself were a beginner?

Your signature line & miine suggests a totally different outlook.

Regards,

 

[Neil]

Mr. Neil,

That would depend on the spin to speed ratio. Does one want to utiilize the spin factor or the deflection factor?
I would hope that by now you do understand the difference. And, that they are not mutually exclusive.

You now seem to only have a problem with the vernacular of calling it a 'Touch' of Inside & who should 'get credit' for bringing it to AZB.
Does "touch" actually mean anything to you?
Would you perfer it to be called a 'Multiple Array of Inside Tip Placement Locations for Utilizing Cue Ball Squirt/Deflection for the Purpose of Pocketing Balls & Getting the Cue Ball to Float After the Collision'? By the way, the process was first introduced on AZB by Mr. ______ on XX-XX-XX.
Now you are just trying to start something again, instead of actually trying to learn something. And, you are again making it very clear that you do not understand how the system is supposed to work.(which you have stated yourself many times) Yet, for some reason, you seem to want to defend what you don't even understand?? I'm not at all concerned about just who gets the credit for it. No one could possibly know anyways. It's been around for a long, long, time. The point was, that so many on here, especially you (who likes to brag about not learning anything on here), have NOT learned about the principles behind it yet. Despite numerous posters having talked about it on here.

Are you aware of how you come across? I would be more interested in you taking the time to expain your take & understanding on the subject at hand rather than constantly jumping CJ for nit picking reasons.
Everyone was not on AZB from it's enception. I stumbled on in June of 2012. I have been using both outside & inside spin for 46 years. This technique on a conscious level is new to me. How many others out there on AZB are or were unaware of it & it is new to them, as well.

I know exactly how I come across, and to whom. Those that want to actually learn something, are fine with me. Those, like you, that can't read a post without a pre-conceived notion of what they want to hear me say, will condemn everything I type.You aren't the least bit interested in what someone says, only who says it.

Now, the shoe is on your foot, are YOU aware of how YOU come across on here? Do you realize that you have more posts in this thread than anyone else, you you freely admit you don't use TOI, don't even understand TOI, but because CJ said it's good, you will defend it at all costs. No matter what statement he makes, can always count on you to be right behind him defending whatever he said.
TOI is the one of the very very few things I have gotten from the now 8 months of my time on AZB. Everyone on AZB is not a beginner or a novice.
Who's fault is that? The material is here. Why brag about not learning anything on here? There's enough info on here to make anyone a shortstop at least if they apply it.
Why can't you engage in the converstaion & HELP instead of moaning like a female dog about who should get the credit.

See, there you go again with your pre-concieved nonsense. As I stated earlier, in case you missed it, I don't care who gets the credit. But, I am sick of people like you saying that it is all brand new material when it isn't, and then praising someone that doesn't even know enough about it to present it correctly.
I have been told by some that you have a wealth of knowledge. I have also seen almost none of such since you returned from your self imposed hiatus.
That's right, and you won't see much anymore from me. Nowdays, almost all my help is through p.m.'s to those that truly are wanting to learn. I got sick of people that can't play knocking my info, and people just dismissing it because I never cared to spend all my time playing to go pro. No point giving info to people that don't want it anyways, and only want to argue.
All I have seen is what appears to be a grumpy old man that is upset because the world is no longer paying any attention to him & he is not getting patted on the back. So...he sharks those that are.
If that's truly what you see, no offense, but you couldn't be more ignorant about it. I am getting old, and I am grumpy at times on here, mainly having to reply to posts like yours that are full of misinformation and just plain trying to start something. As to the paying attention part, yes and no. When I try and help others, then I, just like every single other person on the planet, expect others to at least listen and try it. Not, like you and others do, immediately toss it because I'm not a pro. And then have to spend more time on here trying to explain something to those that don't even care. Quite frankly, you and others have made this place somewhere where those that do have the knowledge seldom post anymore.
I mean to be well intended here. I'm just being honest in my opinion. If you have a wealth of knowledge, why don't you share it in a forthcoming non condescending manner? Instead of making yourself to look as I have desribed above. It's your choose.
Quite frankly, I really don't care how I look to you, for the simple reason you have made it abundantly clear that you are one of those that I won't help.

I for one am ready, willing & able to recieve any knowledge that you are willing to pass on. So far in my 8 months an AZB I have seen almost nothing but arguementative posts with no real specific usefull information.

Please name me just ONE thing that you have contributed to on here besides flame wars? You always state you don't want to be misunderstood, but seem to go out of your way to do just that.
If you can explain the TOI technique better than CJ, then please do so. Maybe you can help someone that can use it. Or...would rather hide under the guise that such things along with english are too complicated for most people so we have to put them down until they are ready for it. The problem with that is, who decides who is ready or not on sight unseen forum site.
Case in point, I and a few others on here, have explained it. Yet, you still ask for it.?? Could it possibly be that you don't actually bother to actually READ what is written on here?
I hope you see my points & take them with the good will as I intend. We need all of the useful information available. We don't need the crap put downs on a personal basis. You fire at CJ, I fire at you. Somebody fires at me. I fire back at them. etc., etc., etc.
Good will?? That's a joke, right? You call me names, and then dare state that it is all in good will? Go back to being CJ's little shadow puppet.
Let's get to the nuts & bolts. You admit the technique exists but you then scold JB & others for 'arguing; with those that say it has no benefit. I'm confused. (opening for an insult or slur)
Maybe you wouldn't be so confused if you actually read things for what they are, instead of being so offended that anyone could possibly dare to say anything that wasn't in complete agreement with the great CJ. Please show ONE post where someone said it has no benefit? Why are you reading into things what is not there?
Best Wishes to You,

A lot more I could say, but no point in it when you are only going to read out of it what you want to anyways.

 

[Philthepockets]

Yes, obviously. I do not mean to suggest that time & experience alone garners ability.

But time & experience can garner some knowledge. If I told you to hit a certain cut shot low so you don't scatch & a newbie told you to just hit center & you won't scratch, who's advice would you take if you yourself were a beginner?

Your signature line & miine suggests a totally different outlook.

Regards,

My story is I learned from old school pro's with questionable fundamentals and although I played okay it left me inconsistent and frustrated. Years later after I had to change everything I play pretty well thank you.
If I was young and had it to do all over I would learn from one of the modern day players with simple sound techniques, this is the path to consistency. Reduce the variables and keep it simple.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENGLISH!
Mr. Neil,

That would depend on the spin to speed ratio. Does one want to utiilize the spin factor or the deflection factor?
I would hope that by now you do understand the difference. And, that they are not mutually exclusive. Yes but different speeds can bring one or the other to the forefront & be used for it's effect rather than & over the other one.

You now seem to only have a problem with the vernacular of calling it a 'Touch' of Inside & who should 'get credit' for bringing it to AZB.
Does "touch" actually mean anything to you?Yes it does & apparently to others, as well. So, you are nit picking.

Would you perfer it to be called a 'Multiple Array of Inside Tip Placement Locations for Utilizing Cue Ball Squirt/Deflection for the Purpose of Pocketing Balls & Getting the Cue Ball to Float After the Collision'? By the way, the process was first introduced on AZB by Mr. ______ on XX-XX-XX.
Now you are just trying to start something again, instead of actually trying to learn something. No, I was merely tying to point out how you are coming across to someone like me that has only been on AZB since June 2012.

And, you are again making it very clear that you do not understand how the system is supposed to work. ].(which you have stated yourself many times)[COLOR="red"]I am fairly sure that I do understand it, but, why don't you explain it for all those that don't?[/COLOR Yet, for some reason, What reason could that be other than an understanding & belief in the technique? you seem to want to defend what you don't even understand?? I am fairly sure that I understand it, but if you think that I don't, then go ahead & point out how it is that I don't, if you can. I'm not at all concerned about just who gets the credit for it. No one could possibly know anyways. It's been around for a long, long, time. The point was, that so many on here, especially you (who likes to brag about not learning anything on here), have NOT learned about the principles behind it yet. Despite numerous posters having talked about it on here. What exactly do you mean? Increased concentration resulting in more percision? IMHO that is not the benfit at all.

Are you aware of how you come across? I would be more interested in you taking the time to explain your take & understanding on the subject at hand rather than constantly jumping CJ for nit picking reasons.
Everyone was not on AZB from it's enception. I stumbled on in June of 2012. I have been using both outside & inside spin for 46 years. This technique on a conscious level is new to me. How many others out there on AZB are or were unaware of it & it is new to them, as well. I know exactly how I come across, and to whom. Those that want to actually learn something, are fine with me. Those, like you, that can't read a post without a pre-conceived notion of what they want to hear me say, will condemn everything I type.You aren't the least bit interested in what someone says, only who says it. I could care less who says what, as long as I can take it to the table & make my game better. Like others you think yourself omniscent of others thoughts & now cares.

Now, the shoe is on your foot, are YOU aware of how YOU come across on here? Do you realize that you have more posts in this thread than anyone else, you you freely admit you don't use TOI, don't even understand TOI, Both of those assertions are untrue. I do use it, just not yet as my main shot, that is, not until my individual money league is over when I will then put in an uninterupted 3 to 4 weeks with TOI & then make a full assesment based determination. but because CJ said it's good, you will defend it at all costs. There is no real cost to defending the truth. No matter what statement he makes, can always count on you to be right behind him defending whatever he said. I only defend what I know is being atttacked by untruths or incorrect assertions. TOI is the one of the very very few things I have gotten from the now 8 months of my time on AZB. Everyone on AZB is not a beginner or a novice.
Who's fault is that? The material is here. Why brag about not learning anything on here? There's enough info on here to make anyone a shortstop at least if they apply it. See, that's one of your problems, you assume everyone on AZB is at a basic level & can improve from any information. What if that information has already been learned & not new to that individual. Your belief that you are omniscient betrays you. You assume. You do know what that makes of those that assume, don't you.

Why can't you engage in the converstaion & HELP instead of moaning like a female dog about who should get the credit.
See, there you go again with your pre-concieved nonsense. As I stated earlier, in case you missed it, I don't care who gets the credit. But, I am sick of people like you saying that it is all brand new material when it isn't, I have never said that. I only said that it was new to me as a playing technique. and then praising someone that doesn't even know enough about it to present it correctly. Then why don't you present it correctly, if you can.[/COLOR]

I have been told by some that you have a wealth of knowledge. I have also seen almost none of such since you returned from your self imposed hiatus.
That's right, and you won't see much anymore from me. Nowdays, almost all my help is through p.m.'s to those that truly are wanting to learn. I got sick of people that can't play knocking my info, and people just dismissing it because I never cared to spend all my time playing to go pro. No point giving info to people that don't want it anyways, and only want to argue.
All I have seen is what appears to be a grumpy old man that is upset because the world is no longer paying any attention to him & he is not getting patted on the back. So...he sharks those that are.
If that's truly what you see, no offense, but you couldn't be more ignorant about it. I am getting old, and I am grumpy at times on here, mainly having to reply to posts like yours that are full of misinformation and just plain trying to start something. As to the paying attention part, yes and no. When I try and help others, then I, just like every single other person on the planet, expect others to at least listen and try it. Not, like you and others do, immediately toss it because I'm not a pro. Per your statements that I bolded it seems that it is you that is obsessed with the word PRO. And then have to spend more time on here trying to explain something to those that don't even care. Quite frankly, you and others have made this place somewhere where those that do have the knowledge seldom post anymore.

I mean to be well intended here. I'm just being honest in my opinion. If you have a wealth of knowledge, why don't you share it in a forthcoming non condescending manner? Instead of making yourself to look as I have desribed above. It's your choose.

Quite frankly, I really don't care how I look to you, for the simple reason you have made it abundantly clear that you are one of those that I won't help. Well, see there CJ is willing to help all & does not exclude anyone .

I for one am ready, willing & able to recieve any knowledge that you are willing to pass on. So far in my 8 months an AZB I have seen almost nothing but arguementative posts with no real specific usefull information.

Please name me just ONE thing that you have contributed to on here besides flame wars? You always state you don't want to be misunderstood, but seem to go out of your way to do just that. What if anything I may have contributed is for the ones, if any, that may have benfited. I am in no way as self gratifying as you appear to be.If you can explain the TOI technique better than CJ, then please do so. Maybe you can help someone that can use it. Or...would you rather hide under the guise that such things along with english are too complicated for most people so we have to put them down until they are ready for it. The problem with that is, who decides who is ready or not on a sight unseen forum site.

Case in point, I and a few others on here, have explained it. Yet, you still ask for it.?? Could it possibly be that you don't actually bother to actually READ what is written on here? If you have already explained IT then please direct ALL of us to your explanation. I guess I & maybe others must have missed IT.

I hope you see my points & take them with the good will as I intend. We need all of the useful information available. We don't need the crap put downs on a personal basis. You fire at CJ, I fire at you. Somebody fires at me. I fire back at them. etc., etc., etc.
Good will?? That's a joke, right? You call me names, and then dare state that it is all in good will? What names did I call you? I described perception. Go back to being CJ's little shadow puppet. See, you call me CJ's puppet just because I defend the only thing that I have found on AZB that I can take to the table to help my game came from CJ. What if I was defending something that I had learned from you, would you have the same attitude? Does the word jealousy come to mind given the big picture?

Let's get to the nuts & bolts. You admit the technique exists but you then scold JB & others for 'arguing' with those that say it has no benefit. I'm confused. (opening for an insult or slur)
Maybe you wouldn't be so confused if you actually read things for what they are, instead of being so offended that anyone could possibly dare to say anything that wasn't in complete agreement with the great CJ. Please show ONE post where someone said it has no benefit? Why are you reading into things what is not there? You caught me in a 'mis-speak'. I should have said no 'physical' benefit.[/COLOR]Best Wishes to You,

A lot more I could say, but no point in it when you are only going to read out of it what you want to anyways.

Well Sir, You have proven, to me, that you are very much how I perceive you.

Best Wishes & the Best of Health to You,

 

[Pidge]

Going back to the original post if I dare...is it just me that completely zones out when down on a shot? I think about what I'm going to cook for dinner, count sheep, do my 8 times tables etc. If I think too much I just over think, doubt my choice and mess up.

I guess this could be called Touch of Not Over Thinking "TONOT"... Ok I may have to rethink a catchier name.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Going back to the original post if I dare...is it just me that completely zones out when down on a shot? I think about what I'm going to cook for dinner, count sheep, do my 8 times tables etc. If I think too much I just over think, doubt my choice and mess up.

I guess this could be called Touch of Not Over Thinking "TONOT"... Ok I may have to rethink a catchier name.

Pidge,

Thanks for the chuckle. But you also got me to think. Just what is a 'Touch' of Center?

Oh. I Know. It's really really close to center but not really because it's a bit to one side or the other. But, since one does not really know if it's a bit inside or a bit outside, one can't call it one way or the other so it's a 'Touch of Center'.

Thanks again for the chuckle & the inspiration to make me think about it,..again.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

How to create zones, and adjust for human error

If you miss center using center, how are going to adjust the next shot? What if you miss the side of the pocket you are aiming at, how will you adjust? If you miss "cheating the pocket" you will miss position and face it, if you miss a shot using center you have no way of knowing which way it deflected. With TOI this is all covered, you can make adjustments because the feedback you're getting is accurate and precise.

The advantage to favoring one side of the cue ball is - none of us can hit the perfect center of the cue ball every time. If we try we will fail because it's simply not possible, especially when hitting the cue ball straight. To prove this get the straightest shooter in the world and have them put the cue ball on the foot spot and an object ball on the head spot.

Have them shoot the cue ball into the object ball and make it come back and hit the cue ball. They can't do it consistently and I'm sure you can't either, we humans are not that perfect, nor should we pretend to be. On the other hand have them set up the same shot and use TOI and we can predict EVERY TIME which side of the cue ball the object ball will come back on. This is another way of describing how the margin of error created.

The other part of the TOI system is it enables a player to aim every shot like it's straight in to either the center or edge of the object ball. Can you do that with center? Not hardly, you would have to incorporate an aiming system into the picture to create your angles.

TOI is not an ordinary aiming system, it blends all the calculations you make on each shot into one system of play....it's not an "aiming system," it's a "playing system".

If you're wondering what calculations I'm referring to they are:

1) The angle you are creating on each shot

2) The shot speed you are creating on each shot

3) The cue ball target you must hit with your tip on each shot

With the Touch Of Inside Technique these three calculations are all BLENDED together. This is why it takes much less thought to play this way, you don't have to think about three things every time, you just concentrate on one thing. Over time this is brutal to play against, it will wear down "the best of them". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

I wonder if they know which way they're missing?

Going back to the original post if I dare...is it just me that completely zones out when down on a shot? I think about what I'm going to cook for dinner, count sheep, do my 8 times tables etc. If I think too much I just over think, doubt my choice and mess up.

I guess this could be called Touch of Not Over Thinking "TONOT"... Ok I may have to rethink a catchier name.

Yes, the point of hitting one consistent shot is NOT to think....a few are "missing" the point, I wonder if they know which way they're missing?

Pool, like life, is a series of adjustments, nothing really stays the same, so they go up and down. When I watch the ball go in the pocket it tell me how to adjust for the next shot. If I hit either side of the pocket I adjust so I'll hit the center on the next shot.

I treat all shots like they're the same, and with the TOI Technique I can. I don't think there's any better way to do this because you can make any shot and get any position using TOI, therefore you can MAKE the shots the same. Of course if you con't know how to do this the shots are all vastly different, especially to beginners that have been told there are thousand of shots in pool.

I see even advanced players start a match playing incredible, and run out every time....however, they're slightly off center and in time this will produce a miss, then another. If they don't know how to adjust their game will decline and they may even lose that match and not know why.

I am willing to adjust (slightly) to make sure my shots are always calibrated to the center, even if I'm making the balls I'm not satisfied unless they are hitting center.

With the TOI Technique if I"m hitting center that means I MUST be aligned to the INSIDE of the pocket and slightly deflecting it into center. This creates the 3 Part Pocket System and gives me maximum margin of error. This is what I MUST do to compete with the greatest players, I must be willing and flexible enough to adjust BEFORE it's too late. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Neil]

If you miss center using center, how are going to adjust the next shot?Same as you do any other way you choose to shoot. You pay attention and observe what you did. What if you miss the side of the pocket you are aiming at, how will you adjust?First, by observing the entire shot. Did I hit the contact point on the ob I was aiming for? In other words, was my aim faulty? Was my stroke straight, or did I veer or steer it? If you miss "cheating the pocket" you will miss position and face it,statement holds just as true for any shot no matter how you shoot it. if you miss a shot using center you have no way of knowing which way it deflected.All you have to do is observe the shot. But, the question is a red-herring anyways. You are using TOI and miss the shot. How do you know why you missed it so you can correct it? With TOI this is all covered, you can make adjustments because the feedback you're getting is accurate and precise.
Red herring again. It is no more accurate and precise than using center ball. First off, assuming a correct stroke and perfect aim on each shot..(impossibility for anyone) so that the only variable is where you hit the cb.

Now, if going for center cb, and I miss by squirting the cb to the left, I know I inadvertently put some right english on it, and vice-versa. Very easy to observe and correct. If I purposely put right english on it, and miss, the same thing holds true. Did I overcut or undercut the ball? That tells you if you used too much or too little english.
The advantage to favoring one side of the cue ball is - none of us can hit the perfect center of the cue ball every time. If we try we will fail because it's simply not possible, especially when hitting the cue ball straight. I don't know what exactly you mean by evertime, but I just went down to my barbox and did it 10 for 10 coming back to hit my tip. To prove this get the straightest shooter in the world and have them put the cue ball on the foot spot and an object ball on the head spot.

Have them shoot the cue ball into the object ball and make it come back and hit the cue ball. They can't do it consistently and I'm sure you can't either, we humans are not that perfect, nor should we pretend to be. On the other hand have them set up the same shot and use TOI and we can predict EVERY TIME which side of the cue ball the object ball will come back on. This is another way of describing how the margin of error created.Red herring again. Not an equal test. A better test would be this- hit the cb to the end rail and have it come back to your tip. For TOI, have it come back to hit a spot on the end rail the width of your tip 1/2 diamond from center. Anything other than hitting that spot with TOI shows innacuracy. You say I can't control hitting center, I say it is easier than controlling hitting off center. Just because you miss on the same side everytime means nothing. A miss is a miss. And, if you can't return the cb to the same spot with english, you can't control the amount of squirt you are getting which nullifies aiming that way.

The other part of the TOI system is it enables a player to aim every shot like it's straight in to either the center or edge of the object ball. Can you do that with center? Not hardly, you would have to incorporate an aiming system into the picture to create your angles.According to you, TOI is using a touch of inside. Just a hair. Just enough to counter the contact induced spin on the cb so you come off the ob without spin.

To aim the way you know describe, you would need a lot more english, and a high squirt cue. And, if you are doing it with more than a touch of inside, you are now using an aiming system. And aiming system designed on feel and the squirt/deflection characteristics of the cue you happen to be using at the time. No way would that be more accurate than using center ball.

TOI is not an ordinary aiming system, it blends all the calculations you make on each shot into one system of play....it's not an "aiming system," it's a "playing system".

If you're wondering what calculations I'm referring to they are:

1) The angle you are creating on each shot
same thing applies to center ball
2) The shot speed you are creating on each shot
The speed you use has no bearing on the squirt of the cue. However, going slower will affect the swerve of the cb. (bringing the cb curving back on line)
3) The cue ball target you must hit with your tip on each shot
Same thing applies to center ball.
With the Touch Of Inside Technique these three calculations are all BLENDED together. This is why it takes much less thought to play this way, you don't have to think about three things every time, you just concentrate on one thing. Over time this is brutal to play against, it will wear down "the best of them". 'The Game is the Teacher'

I do agree that using a firmer hit deadens the cb. It, however, is not a result of using a touch of inside, but rather a fact of hitting very close to center cue ball. You get the exact same effect whether you hit a hair right or left of center. THIS, hitting close to center with a firmer hit, is what makes this style of play so nice. It is much easier to control the cb, especially off of rails, and keeps everything the same throughout the game. It's using your tangent lines to control where the cb goes, because that is where the cb naturally wants to go. It's using a lot of stun shots on a barbox, and as much as possible on a 9' table.

Hitting a hair inside of center, just enough to eliminate contact induced spin on the cue ball, will keep you on the equal in-equal out angles off the rails if contact is made with them. However, hitting just a hair off center, with a low deflection shaft, will not cause much spin at all either way on the cb. There will be a little, but not really enough to matter coming off the rails. With my cue, hitting firm, on a 7' table, from head spot to opposite end rail and back to the head rail, a hair off center produces one inch variance each way. That shows just how little spin is picked up, and how little deflection there is. I have used cues that I had to aim a whole ball off with only 2 tips of english over a 7' distance. So, a lot is dependent on which cue you happen to be using.

Now, with all that said about center. The one disadvantage of strictly using center is skids. The easy way to avoid that is to use a touch of english. Many prefer outside for this reason, but inside will help avoid it too.

 

[JB Cases]

Don't worry Neil, none of these guys on here could hit the same spot on the cue ball three times in a row anyway so it's irrelevant.

None of them? As in you can? Or Neil can?

Ok, I will have a CueSight Training Ball with me at the SBE. If any non-professional AZ Member wants to bet $20 per try that they can hit the same spot on the cue ball three times in a row I will be happy to take that action.

Should be a nice contest.

Or do you mean that "the same spot" refers to an area and not an actual spot? I mean I will have a ball with me with clear markings on it to guide the shooter so it ought to be easy to hit the same spot for you and Neil. But on the off chance that you can't do it for whatever reason with a clearly marked ball then what makes you think you can do it with an unmarked cue ball?

I predict I won't get any takers but anyone who wants to pre-register can let me know so I will be sure to make some time to find a table and spend my $20 bills being proven wrong. Cuz like you know, there is no doubt I am wrong and you guys are amazingly precise while the rest of hacks are not even able to hit the cueball at all half the time.

 

[Neil]

None of them? As in you can? Or Neil can?

Ok, I will have a CueSight Training Ball with me at the SBE. If any non-professional AZ Member wants to bet $20 per try that they can hit the same spot on the cue ball three times in a row I will be happy to take that action.

Should be a nice contest.

Or do you mean that "the same spot" refers to an area and not an actual spot? I mean I will have a ball with me with clear markings on it to guide the shooter so it ought to be easy to hit the same spot for you and Neil. But on the off chance that you can't do it for whatever reason with a clearly marked ball then what makes you think you can do it with an unmarked cue ball?

I predict I won't get any takers but anyone who wants to pre-register can let me know so I will be sure to make some time to find a table and spend my $20 bills being proven wrong. Cuz like you know, there is no doubt I am wrong and you guys are amazingly precise while the rest of hacks are not even able to hit the cueball at all half the time.

John, not going to get into your contest that is wrought with "see, it's not exact". The point is, if you read it, an hour or so ago I just had the cb come back and hit my tip 10/10. That amount of center ball hit is all you need unless you have a very poor shaft that isn't worth trying to play pool with.

But, I will say this- if you can't hit the cb to where the vast majority of the chalk mark is in the same spot shot after shot, you know what you need to work on.

 

[CJ Wiley]

With the TOI System, your cue ball margin of error is the same as your pocket M.O.E.

None of them? As in you can? Or Neil can?

Ok, I will have a CueSight Training Ball with me at the SBE. If any non-professional AZ Member wants to bet $20 per try that they can hit the same spot on the cue ball three times in a row I will be happy to take that action.

Should be a nice contest.

Or do you mean that "the same spot" refers to an area and not an actual spot? I mean I will have a ball with me with clear markings on it to guide the shooter so it ought to be easy to hit the same spot for you and Neil. But on the off chance that you can't do it for whatever reason with a clearly marked ball then what makes you think you can do it with an unmarked cue ball?

I predict I won't get any takers but anyone who wants to pre-register can let me know so I will be sure to make some time to find a table and spend my $20 bills being proven wrong. Cuz like you know, there is no doubt I am wrong and you guys are amazingly precise while the rest of hacks are not even able to hit the cueball at all half the time.

The cue ball is the target, if you want to make your target the absolute center with no margin of error, that's your preoperative. With the TOI System, your cue ball margin of error is the same as your pocket margin of error. Just like fading or drawing a golf ball, the margin of error is a result of creating a zone in the landing area. In pool the landing area is the pocket, it is also on the table with position play, TOI accommodates both types of zones. You can't get this zone effect hitting the ball perfectly straight and the good news is YOU DON'T HAVE TO. :smile:

They are congruent and when calibrated to the center of the pocket it creates the 3 Part Pocket System. This enables you to "cheat the pocket" by developing what champions call a "feel for the pocket". This is best done AT THE TARGET, which is the cue ball, we don't hit the object ball directly, we hit the cue ball.

The object ball is a reflection of the our contact with the cue ball. Making the center you target is fine, however, you don't have the ability to align it as your target because the angles change. If the angles change and you are always trying to hit the center you are losing out on the TOI Technique's strongest attribute.

The ability to hit all your shots virtually the same, that's how to attain the maximum consistency with the least amount of thought, you are basically calibrating every shot as if they were the same. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's much better to favor one side and force the ball towards the target

Pidge,

Thanks for the chuckle. But you also got me to think. Just what is a 'Touch' of Center?

Oh. I Know. It's really really close to center but not really because it's a bit to one side or the other. But, since one does not really know if it's a bit inside or a bit outside, one can't call it one way or the other so it's a 'Touch of Center'.

Thanks again for the chuckle & the inspiration to make me think about it,..again.

Best Regards,

This is funny, it's like an 18 handicap golfer trying to sell the pros on the idea of hitting all their shots straight so they can "aim" at the center of the fairway and hit the center of the ball to do it (with no spin or deflection).

This is imprudent, it's much better to favor one side (of pocket or fairway/green), and force the ball to go towards the "heart" of your zone (with the target being the center), creating, then increasing your margin of error substantially. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[JB Cases]

John, not going to get into your contest that is wrought with "see, it's not exact". The point is, if you read it, an hour or so ago I just had the cb come back and hit my tip 10/10. That amount of center ball hit is all you need unless you have a very poor shaft that isn't worth trying to play pool with.

But, I will say this- if you can't hit the cb to where the vast majority of the chalk mark is in the same spot shot after shot, you know what you need to work on.

Ok great. So answer me this, since you and the rest of the billiard instruction world preaches center ball why is it that people haven't gotten great by focusing on center ball. Let's be real and admit that nearly everyone who calls themselves an instructor and nearly every book written espouses the idea that the shooter should stay at center ball as much as possible and yet people still don't advance?

And then along comes CJ with a new method (new to the "public") that NO ONE has ever put into print or on video that I know of and people are trying it and reporting improvements in their performance.

I think it's not just a placebo effect, nor just because people are focusing more, I think that it's because CJ's method works as he says it does for the reasons he says it does.

Of course you can continue to say that it's just center ball in a shiny new package but it's my opinion that this is not right and implying that this is all it is is also not right.

Anyway, I have more important things to do. CJ is fully capable of handling it and the proof is in the people who try it anyway. Knock all you want to but at the end of the day it's CJ Wiley who was on ESPN and not you. Because of that there are going to be plenty who will try his methods and then they will report on the effectiveness of them.

You guys have fun battling it out. I am having fun running racks using my CTE with a touch of TOI.

 

[TSW]

John do you have any videos up yet on TOI?

The videos are just as puzzling as the posts.

 

[Pidge]

CTE, TOI and I'm guessing BHE...that's one hell of a PSR.

I'm not going to lie, I've never used or intend to use TOI. Well that's not entirely true. I do spin the ball into the pocket to create a "larger" pocket, but it varies with inside, outside and varying amounts.

I don't understand how there is more margain of error when striking the CB, maybe because I was dropped on my head at birth. If you line up centre ball and your stroke makes you strike half a tip to the right, the same will surely apply when lining up with TOI, right? Maybe its just me, but my little old ghost ball let's me put the OB into any part of the pocket I want.

I'm not slamming TOI by any means, but my brain just can't comprehend how it could possibly improve ones pocketing ability. I've read a lot of peoples great experiences with it, so congrats if its helped improve your game and keep it up.

 

[JB Cases]

John do you have any videos up yet on TOI?

No and I don't intend to have any up. As I said I am not using it all the time and I haven't committed to it. I am busy with ProOne when I have time to practice which is not much.