Tournament seeding - thoughts?

DGHustles

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I have been doing some thinking. I know that the ABP requires seeding for their events. While I understand some of the reasoning for this, I simply cannot agree. I think that by doing this a tournament is really losing some integrity. I think that any tournament that is open to anyone willing to pay an entry fee, then there should be no seeding. The draw is part of competition.

However, if an event is invite, or requires you to submit a resume, then maybe seeding would be more appropriate.

Either way what are your thoughts?
 
Seeding?

So I have been doing some thinking. I know that the ABP requires seeding for their events. While I understand some of the reasoning for this, I simply cannot agree. I think that by doing this a tournament is really losing some integrity. I think that any tournament that is open to anyone willing to pay an entry fee, then there should be no seeding. The draw is part of competition.

However, if an event is invite, or requires you to submit a resume, then maybe seeding would be more appropriate.

Either way what are your thoughts?

I agree. The worst example of seeding in history? Mike Sigel seeded by his buddy Kevin into the finals of IPT 2.

Donny L
PPIA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
 
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I'm neither opposed nor in favor of seeding. In my opinion, it's all how it is done. Seeding is inappropriate in pool as pool is now, because there's no clear, definitive rankings and system for determining player rankings. Who is to say who is #1 or 1-25?


That requires a tour, where all the players play regularly, and there's a tour card system, but at the same time it is open to all competition with regular qualifiers to keep the tour members constantly challenged. Eventually, there can be a solid ranking system, and then and only then is seeding appropriate.


Otherwise, seeding is just a way by which to protect or keep the money amongst a particular group of players. Nothing wrong with that, assuming there's something established that determines with some kind of reasoning as to who constitutes that group of players. And, what do those players do to MERIT that seeding?

If say there's a solid tour, that can be determined. The guys at the top have battled, fought, worked and earned their spot at the top. They are the top dogs, and seeding is fair at that point. Since why should #1 and #4 try and knock each other out in the first round, and some unranked player from a qualifier get a first round bye or play another player from a qualifier? That's not fair either. It's a sort of paying one's dues to be "in the big time" ...It would also be expected of tour members to give back to the tour and the sport by working for the tour, doing promotional work etcetera.


What can an alleged top player claim as their right to prize money protection today when no such exchange of services exists? What can they claim they did for the sport, that earns them this right? There's no such tour. There's nothing of the sort. They are tournament players like anyone else. It is irrelevant that they might win many tournaments internationally, and be recognized as top pros. Just being a winner alone isn't enough.


I think seeding is appropriate for tours with pros who are more than just pros, but who promote the sport and work to grow it. The IPT had that vision. Being seeded is a lot like being a shareholder or having a stake in it all. To earn seeding, the players ought to have a duty and responsibility to the tour, the sport as a whole and more.


I think it is utterly absurd that some players feel entitled to being seeded in tournaments. But, that's up to the promoters and people putting up the cash. If it's an invitational, or even if it is open and the players paying to enter are willing to put up with seeding, more power to them.
 
I agree I do think that seeding can be appropriate. But for now, it seems to be nothing more than a way for top players to make sure they get in the money.
 
I think the ABP and their need for seeding is a perfect example of the self-mindedness that has helped catapult pool into a hole that seems impossible to get out of. Seeding is not good for the game of pool, the best players are always going to win and make it far. But people like to watch the underdog, the unheard of player upsetting the greats.
 
Seeding

The sole purpose behind seeding is to ensure that the top players do not have to play each other early and suffer an early loss or elimination. Those in support of seeding argue that this is necessary because paying spectators do not want to see less skilled players in the later rounds because of a lucky draw. Those opposed to seeding (like me) believe that it is completely unfair. I believe that everyone should be subjected to that initial element of chance in the random draw...not just some.
 
Those in support of seeding argue that this is necessary because paying spectators do not want to see less skilled players in the later rounds because of a lucky draw.



Let's assume they are right about what spectators want to see. I doubt it, nothing is better than watching some unknown underdog go deep into a tournament. But let's say they're right. Go with a sort of hybrid seeding system that's been done in Europe. Do a round-robin format in the first round, which would be seeded across a spectrum. That way, the lower level pros don't absolutely have to beat the world champions to get past round one. They can advance with a decent performance against a spectrum of ranked players in their group. No easy first round draw, no nearly sure-loss against a top ranked player. Same thing for the champions, #1 doesn't have to play #2 and knock each other out early.


If they top dogs can't feel comfortable with that, then they don't deserve not a single thing. They're suppose to be the best because they win. Then act like it, and win. And don't ask for crutches and freebies.
 
I believe if there were a real tour, with multiple ranking events, and a real points standing, that seeding could be done appropriately. Meaning that those who were currently playing at the highest level, and had proved it by finishing highly in that current year, could (and should) get preferential seeding. As a reward and incentive in that current tour schedule.

Without such a scenario, it becomes too easy to be manipulated and not being fair to all the participants, and to what end. Why were these folks given better placement over those folks, because they have played better in the past, or because they know the promoters better?
 
The sole purpose behind seeding is to ensure that the top players do not have to play each other early and suffer an early loss or elimination. Those in support of seeding argue that this is necessary because paying spectators do not want to see less skilled players in the later rounds because of a lucky draw. Those opposed to seeding (like me) believe that it is completely unfair. I believe that everyone should be subjected to that initial element of chance in the random draw...not just some.

agreed! 100%
 
Generally I do not like seeding, But if you must "seed", there has to be an additional entry fee. EXAMPLE: $200 entry fee (seeded players pay $300 maybe even $400). That way they "bought" their right. If we all pay $200 (in a blind draw tournament), you have to let the "luck of the draw" determine the match-ups and brackets. Years ago Jim Williard (of the Williard cue tip tool fame) put on some bigger tournaments. He would NOT seed them, which made the "Pros" (of which there were many) at his events mad, but why should my $200 be worth less than Efren's.
 
Seeding

I agree with manfromoz too. How else are the up-n-comers ever going to have that chance to go deep in a tournament, and beat some big name players.

Kind of reminds me of when Buddy Hall came through Wichita, and was taking on all comers down at Burke's Steakhouse. He was giving the wild 7 to anybody. I was playing him, and he asked me who I was, and told me that he would only give me the 8 instead of the 7.... lol This was when he was the best roadplayer in the country and right before he turned Pro.
 
'Seeding' is suppose to be done by ranking the players. The best player is #1 and so on down the line.

But, IMO, the 'ranking' is the problem. Who would be responsible for the ranking?

I think that if there ar 16 players to be ranked/seeded, they should have to pay for this seeding. It shouldn't be a problem for most of the players, they have sponsors or backers for entry fees and travel expenses. Well maybe only the top two players. :wink:

I do like the way the women play their tournaments. Double elimination in the first few rounds and then Single elimination (seeded) for the last 16 players.

Why not just Promote a tournament, get a great sponsor with lots of money and then write checks to the top 16 players. The rest of the field can compete for the championship. Single elimination race to ONE!
 
To me, seeding seems to be a bit unfair. Why should a "pro" get an "advantage" in proceeding further into tournament standings than an amateur who has paid the "same" entry fee?

The way I see it is like the old saying, "cream rises to the top". If the pro is so much better than the amateur, then he or she should have no problem rising to the top. If somebody gets an easier draw, or a bye, then that is the luck of the particular person.

For what it's worth, I don't want to go to a tournament and see the "same" people, time after time, in the finals. I'd like to see an "unknown" make it deep into the tournament and have a chance at being the "dark horse" to win.

I realize that some pros will refuse to participate in tournaments if they aren't seeded, but that is to their detriment...not the detriment of the other players. If they want to ensure that "they" are the ONLY winners, through seeding, then maybe they should just form their own little club of whomever they want and then just play amongst themselves and see how that works and for how long.

If I enter a tournament, I don't care who I draw...I'm there to play. If I get an easy draw and make it further than I expected, then good for me. If I get knocked out by the top player in the first round, then "so be it".
 
Bottomline.

SEEDING is ignorant, just like the founder of DRAGON PROMOTIONS.

And he is the only person pushing this issue, You see where it has got him/them. NOWHERE
 
So I have been doing some thinking. I know that the ABP requires seeding for their events. While I understand some of the reasoning for this, I simply cannot agree. I think that by doing this a tournament is really losing some integrity. I think that any tournament that is open to anyone willing to pay an entry fee, then there should be no seeding. The draw is part of competition.

However, if an event is invite, or requires you to submit a resume, then maybe seeding would be more appropriate.

Either way what are your thoughts?

Turning Stone events are listed as 2 out of the 5 BCA points events for 2012. Mike Zuglin said he would never seed his events. Has that changed now? If not, does that mean the APB will be boycotting those events this year?

For information purposes, BCA points are for determining who gets invited to WPA sanctioned international events. Some of those WPA events have pretty hefty prize funds.
 
Turning Stone events are listed as 2 out of the 5 BCA points events for 2012. Mike Zuglin said he would never seed his events. Has that changed now? If not, does that mean the APB will be boycotting those events this year?

For information purposes, BCA points are for determining who gets invited to WPA sanctioned international events. Some of those WPA events have pretty hefty prize funds.

I believe that many of the main group from ABP was there a couple of weeks ago, at the most recent Turning Stone. Apparently they didn't want to boycott that one.
 
I agree with manfromoz too. How else are the up-n-comers ever going to have that chance to go deep in a tournament, and beat some big name players.

Kind of reminds me of when Buddy Hall came through Wichita, and was taking on all comers down at Burke's Steakhouse. He was giving the wild 7 to anybody. I was playing him, and he asked me who I was, and told me that he would only give me the 8 instead of the 7.... lol This was when he was the best roadplayer in the country and right before he turned Pro.

You were old enough for that? Didn't he turn pro in the early 80's? Just curious...

KMRUNOUT
 
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