Training for a backstroke pause

[itsfroze]

Very interesting. Is there such a thing as a moving pause? I would think that a pause is a temporary stop, but a stop, nonetheless. If something is continuing to move, then isn't it technically still defined as moving and not pausing, even though it slows down?

Fran Crimi
(Trained Instructor)

Nothing bad meant when I said trained instructor, just didn't know how to word that.

I guess what I was trying to get at is when people are talking about pausing between, backstroke, and forward stroke, whether it's a stationary (or physical stop) or whether it's a continuing of motion even though not backward or forward motion there still is either a physical or a time lapse between the backward and forward motions.

There is something going on in either instance between the the two (backward and forward) motions. Which I would think would give, in either case a chance for the benefits of said pause to kick in.

As far as it not being a pause if the if the cue is still moving I guess someone could call it what ever they want, I just chose to call it what I did for lack of a better term.

Question? If I was talking with you and speaking out loud as one would in a normal conversation, and in the middle of a sentence I stopped speaking out loud but kept moving my lips, mouthing words, and then started speaking out loud again. Was there a pause in the conversation even though my lips were still moving?

I'm saying there was a pause (even though my lips were moving)
You could hear me, then you couldn't, and then you could again.

Of coarse I'm relating this to the pump stroke, as in the backward movement has stopped, and the forward motion hasn't started yet and even though the back hand is moving, to me there has been a pause
between the backward and forward motions.

I am not trying to argue, just discussing and trying to back up what I have said is all.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I think the pause is incidental....The more important factor is the tempo of the entire stroke....the pause part (aka....transition) just happens.

There is scene in the movie Tin Cup that fits the pool stroke...Roy was being asked about his golf swing....He mentioned that he would think Dollar Bills right before the swing.

Dollar bills is a verbal metronome......Dollar (backswing) Bills (forward swing)

Any two syllable word will work for the backswing....and any one syllable word will work for the forward swing.

Remember....the pool stroke is a musical dance....the back swing is a smooth two count take away....the forward swing is a smooth accelerating one count.

 

[Razor]

One man's opinion (not mine, see attached link), never ever stop your stroke off the rail or when using follow. Not sure about laying off for 10 years and getting out there and beating everyone on the planet, though...lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYSEGQkdBNE&feature=channel&list=UL

 

[FranCrimi]

I think that a good stroke is all about timing, such as points and rates of acceleration. I wonder if you take the best timed continuous loop stroke and compare it with the best timed forward motion stroke, would one come out ahead in effectiveness? Perhaps it would show up best in tropical climates like the Philippines, where pool tables are soaked from constant dampness.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

One man's opinion (not mine, see attached link), never ever stop your stroke off the rail or when using follow. Not sure about laying off for 10 years and getting out there and beating everyone on the planet, though...lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYSEGQkdBNE&feature=channel&list=UL

Reid never quite says it, but his message is that a pause at the back of the stroke makes you hit the CB less accurately (at least for the short strokes used in rail-frozen shots).

pj
chgo

 

[Wileydog]

Ewa Mataya Laurance had a good tip for shooting off the rail. Choke up on the grip. I don't know what her reasoning was, but I think it is to maintain a more natural stroke motion even though it is shortened by the rail. I tried it and it works wonders. I choke up until the cue starts to lift from my bridge and then move back a few inches.

 

[BasementDweller]

I love the pause. I think adding the pause to my stroke really helped my game. However, I have noticed that what feels like a long pause while shooting isn't really much of a pause when I see it on video. That's sort of a theme that I noticed about my stroke - I always feel like my stroke is moving slower than it actually is on video. Slowing my stroke down was a very important variable in regards to getting better at this game.

I've mentioned this before and Scott Lee touched on it earlier in this thread but I wanted to mention it again in case anybody missed it. The pause at the end of the backstroke is tied to your eye pattern. I tried to add a pause without changing my eye pattern before and it felt completely forced and unnatural. What I realized was the eyes are what causes you to pause or not. What I do is I focus on the cue ball as I pull back my cue, then my eyes transition to the object ball at the end of the backstroke. The transition of the eyes from cue ball to object ball causes the pause.

The pause is not the cause of my flaws

 

[ronscuba]

... What I realized was the eyes are what causes you to pause or not. What I do is I focus on the cue ball as I pull back my cue, then my eyes transition to the object ball at the end of the backstroke. The transition of the eyes from cue ball to object ball causes the pause.

The pause is not the cause of my flaws

You must be young. On long shots if I focus on the cue ball, then the object ball, my pause would be 3-4 seconds long. My eyes ability to focus quickly is not what it used to be.

 

[BasementDweller]

You must be young. On long shots if I focus on the cue ball, then the object ball, my pause would be 3-4 seconds long. My eyes ability to focus quickly is not what it used to be.

That's a good point. I haven't run into that issue yet.

I've noticed that the pause is much more common in snooker and on longer shots often times the pause is much more pronounced. I wonder if that is because they are waiting for their eyes to adjust to the object ball. I'm not certain.

I'm not sure if that is the typical eye pattern for the snooker players or not. I'm pretty certain that is how Allison Fischer does it. At least that's where I think I got that idea from.

Maybe someone more familiar with the snooker players could answer that for me.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

You must be young. On long shots if I focus on the cue ball, then the object ball, my pause would be 3-4 seconds long. My eyes ability to focus quickly is not what it used to be.

See an optometrist. He should be able to fit you with special prescription lenses that will allow you to see things reasonably in focus everywhere in the range between arm length (the closest you will need to see while playing pool) and the longest shot you will ever make (about 10'). This will eliminate the need for your aging natural lenses to refocus through the process of accommodation. Bear in mind, however, that this will be a compromise prescription, and may not work well for reading or driving.

 

[Wileydog]

See an optometrist. He should be able to fit you with special prescription lenses that will allow you to see things reasonably in focus everywhere in the range between arm length (the closest you will need to see while playing pool) and the longest shot you will ever make (about 10'). This will eliminate the need for your aging natural lenses to refocus through the process of accommodation. Bear in mind, however, that this will be a compromise prescription, and may not work well for reading or driving.

I have contacts that were fitted for 10 feet. Works great.

 

[C.Milian]

It seems like that, but it isn't technically true. There's no measurable amount of time in which the piston (or a ball thrown straight up in the air) is motionless. It changes direction without stopping.

Here's an analogy that might help show that's true (even though non-intuitive):

If a locomotive weighing 500 tons, and pulling 75 rolling stock, is heading down the track at 60mph. And, a fly is coming in the opposite direction....and hits the front of the train head on, due to superior weight and inertia of the locomotive the fly will start going in the same direction as the train. So therefore the fly must stop at the instant it hits the train. Well, if the fly stops, then so must the train....right?

Of course, an arm swinging a cue isn't a fly hit by a train or a ball thrown up in the air, so I don't know if a cue must stop momentarily between the backstroke and forward stroke. I'm just saying the examples given don't prove that it must.

pj
chgo

P.S. There's a physics joke that goes with that analogy:

Q: What's the last thing that goes through the fly's mind when he hits the train?
A: His ass.

By your analogy nothing stays at a constant stillness, which means nothing can stop, and nothing can pause. Technically than, all matter, slowing disperses towards the middle of the earth, no matter its hardness or compacted-ness. Uranus is slowing gravitating towards the throbbing, massive, melting,splattering!, sun and so on and on. But, we don't have to look that far to rationalize the obvious need for a pause. We just need to know the functions of proper execution, which are;

Well, who cares. All that matters is its there. If you don't have it, and its hard for you to understand...or even see that it (in every professional stroke)...I think you are missing vital knowledge of mechanics.

The mentioned players all pause. This is fact. You would have to ask them to be honest and they'll tell you they do. Efren, people's choice for example of an un-ortho stroke will tell you himself, if asked. Its hard to understand unless the eye is trained.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

By your analogy nothing stays at a constant stillness, which means nothing can stop, and nothing can pause.

You misunderstand. Of course things can be still - they just don't have to come to a stop in order to reverse direction. This isn't a personal opinion (it seems strange to me too); it's what physics says about it. Many things aren't as they seem - more and more things the more we learn.

...the obvious need for a pause.

If you mean everybody needs the pause to play their best pool, I doubt that's true either. I pause, but I don't think that makes it necessary for everybody.

pj
chgo

 

[C.Milian]

You misunderstand. Of course things can be still - they just don't have to come to a stop in order to reverse direction. This isn't a personal opinion (it seems strange to me too); it's what physics says about it. Many things aren't as they seem - more and more things the more we learn.


If you mean everybody needs the pause to play their best pool, I doubt that's true either. I pause, but I don't think that makes it necessary for everybody.

pj
chgo

The pause is a mechanical function. I pause--at first I manufactured it. Slowly, as things soaked in with more and more training it becomes automatic. Even teachers that don't do it or believe it exist, should at least explain that it helps with focus. The main reason some can't see it is because some players' mechanics are so fluid, there is little annunciation of the action.

But even if it is manufactured, it serves a very important action and is helpful.

Take a canoe for example. it goes depending on action of the paddles. Well, I have quit a while now so I can't really say exactly what it is you're supposed to feel. I wish I am complete to be able to explain exactly what happens properly. At my stage it is still all a guess so my examples are still uncertain-able.

most of the confusion comes from the reason that the back hand is a very complex thing.

Look at a closed door. imagine it opening by it self...then closing it. just imagining that action without a pause is peeving me. very hard to do.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Even teachers that don't do it or believe it exist, should at least explain that it helps with focus.

I don't think that's universally true. For some players it interrupts their focus. I teach it, but I let the student decide whether or not to keep it. I think a measured backstroke is more important.

The main reason some can't see it is because some players' mechanics are so fluid, there is little annunciation of the action.

I think many players just don't do it.

pj
chgo

 

[duckie]

So I was in the boat again. There are times coming into the dock that you must use reverse to slow down, remember there are no brakes on a boat.

Once you go into reverse and throttle up to reverse, the boat does stop its forward motion before it reverses. With practice, you can use the right about of throttle to stop it dead.

But to go from going forward to reverse, the boat has to stop first before going in reverse or rather changing direction.

Now throw a ball up in the air such that the trajectory is like the Arch in St. Louis, the ball will slow down , but not stop before is changes direction, coming back down. This is because of gravity which doesn't have the same affect on the operation of the boat. Plus the ball is in the air and the boat is on water which also affects the behavior of the boat.

So the only way for a cue tip not to pause at the back stroke is for the cue tip path be like the Arch during the back stroke and after the backstroke going forward.

A linear motion for stroke,, the cue tip must stop before it reverses direction.

Another thing to consider with the "looping" stroke is where the center line of the cue is when the cue tip is at end of the back stroke. If the cue stick is on the same center line of the cue tip at the end of the back stroke, the cue tip stops before it changes direction.

 

[C.Milian]

I don't think that's universally true. For some players it interrupts their focus. I teach it, but I let the student decide whether or not to keep it. I think a measured backstroke is more important.


I think many players just don't do it.

pj
chgo

Yeah but the idea is that it is important.

 

[lfigueroa]

I have contacts that were fitted for 10 feet. Works great.

Me too. Works great for pool. And driving is not a problem. I can usually pick out street signs a farther distance than someone in the passenger seat. But reading -- fergetaboutit.

Lou Figueroa

 

[nobcitypool]

It seems like that, but it isn't technically true. There's no measurable amount of time in which the piston (or a ball thrown straight up in the air) is motionless. It changes direction without stopping.

Here's an analogy that might help show that's true (even though non-intuitive):

If a locomotive weighing 500 tons, and pulling 75 rolling stock, is heading down the track at 60mph. And, a fly is coming in the opposite direction....and hits the front of the train head on, due to superior weight and inertia of the locomotive the fly will start going in the same direction as the train. So therefore the fly must stop at the instant it hits the train. Well, if the fly stops, then so must the train....right?

Of course, an arm swinging a cue isn't a fly hit by a train or a ball thrown up in the air, so I don't know if a cue must stop momentarily between the backstroke and forward stroke. I'm just saying the examples given don't prove that it must.

pj
chgo

P.S. There's a physics joke that goes with that analogy:

Q: What's the last thing that goes through the fly's mind when he hits the train?
A: His ass.

From a pure physics point of view, I don't believe this is correct. The reality is, when the fly hits the train, the body of the fly is compressed and it's forward path decelerates. During this brief period of time of compression, the body of the fly is still moving in the original direction. For the briefest of moments when the maximum compression occurs, the mass of the fly's body is not moving forward or backwards, it is stationary (the pause). Further, the mass of the fly hitting the train would have an impact on the inertia of the train. It is so small however, that it certainly isn't noticeable and not likely to even be measurable with any instruments available to man because of the huge disparity in mass between the fly and the train.

Consider a similar situation but different components. Substitute a bullet for the fly and assume the head of the bullet is made of harder metal than the surface of the train it hits. What happens? The bullet will penetrate the metal to some degree, perhaps would completely penetrate the first sheet of metal. At some point however, the bullet will run out of energy due to friction and will momentarily "pause" before changing direction to that of the train.

 

[Wileydog]

From a pure physics point of view, I don't believe this is correct. The reality is, when the fly hits the train, the body of the fly is compressed and it's forward path decelerates. During this brief period of time of compression, the body of the fly is still moving in the original direction. For the briefest of moments when the maximum compression occurs, the mass of the fly's body is not moving forward or backwards, it is stationary (the pause). Further, the mass of the fly hitting the train would have an impact on the inertia of the train. It is so small however, that it certainly isn't noticeable and not likely to even be measurable with any instruments available to man because of the huge disparity in mass between the fly and the train.

Consider a similar situation but different components. Substitute a bullet for the fly and assume the head of the bullet is made of harder metal than the surface of the train it hits. What happens? The bullet will penetrate the metal to some degree, perhaps would completely penetrate the first sheet of metal. At some point however, the bullet will run out of energy due to friction and will momentarily "pause" before changing direction to that of the train.

Speed requires a time lapse and measuring the speed at the point where it reaches zero is nearly impossible. That’s where calculus comes in. It allows you to use math formulas to calculate real world situations. We know it has to stop, but, mathematically, it doesn’t.