Transfer of English?
- Thread starter mnorwood
- Start date
mnorwood said:
Yes, whenever the CB's surface rubs across the OB's surface (either because the CB is spinning or because it hits the OB at an angle) the OB's surface is moved in the direction of that motion. This "transferred english" is called "spin-induced" or "collision-induced" depending on which way it happens.
pj
chgo
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Secaucus Fats
Banned
mnorwood said:
English can be transferred from the cue ball to an object ball. This transference of english is also referred to as "English induced throw".
Set up a cue ball and an object ball and shoot at the object ball while using left english. The object ball will now veer to the RIGHT. The left english on the cue ball has been converted to right english on the object ball.
Although it is not entirely accurate, the easiest way to picture what is going on in a shot involving english induced throw is to picture two gears meshing. As one gear turns to the left, the other turns to the right.
How much english induced throw is produced depends on how much english was applied to the cue ball initially and the speed of the stroke. The effect will be more pronounced on a softer stroke than on a hard stroke.
Fats
Here is something I was surprised to find out even some advanced players were not aware of.
Not only will the cue balls english (sidespin) transfer to the OB, but the mere rubbing across the OB by the cue ball with no english at all applied to the cue ball, will "induce" a spin of it's own on the OB.
Have you ever over cut the shot shown below and have it bank back at you in the lower right corner pocket?
If you notice the angle of entry to the left short rail, the 12 ball should bank out towards the center of the table. But the rubbing of the cue ball against the 12 ball induces a clockwise spin on the 12 ball and causes it to rebound in the opposite direction and into the lower right corner pocket.
( a very common concept to use in the game of one pocket.)
Not only will the cue balls english (sidespin) transfer to the OB, but the mere rubbing across the OB by the cue ball with no english at all applied to the cue ball, will "induce" a spin of it's own on the OB.
Have you ever over cut the shot shown below and have it bank back at you in the lower right corner pocket?
If you notice the angle of entry to the left short rail, the 12 ball should bank out towards the center of the table. But the rubbing of the cue ball against the 12 ball induces a clockwise spin on the 12 ball and causes it to rebound in the opposite direction and into the lower right corner pocket.
( a very common concept to use in the game of one pocket.)
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randyg said:
You are correct that the transfer would be less than 10%.
Banking With The Beard, foot note:
According to Robert Byrne, clean polished balls only transmit about 2% of Cue Ball spin to an object Ball with a Full Hit. With dirty balls, considerably more spin can be transmitted.
Byrne's Complete Book of Pool Shots C 2003, P. 92
Steve
On a full hit, up to 5/14'ths or 35.7% of the cueball's spin can be "transfered" to the object ball. You get the full 35.7% when the cueball and object balls end up rolling across each other during the collision. This happens, for instance, on stun shots with up to about half of maximum english applied to the cueball. So the spin on the object ball can be as much as 1/2 X 5/14 or 18% of maximum cueball english.sde said:
On a full hit, the cueball loses as much spin as the object ball gains. Since at modest tip offsets it's a fixed and reliable 35.7%, this fact helps us to draw or follow fairly precisely over small distances (though, obviously, few are aware of the why of it). As you increase tip offset, the amount of spin loss begins to change (drop) pretty rapidly, making it harder to control distance.
You can put similar amounts of spin on the object ball at any cut angle, but for anything other than straight shots, the induced spin comes from the combination of cut angle and cueball spin, as Patrick mentioned above.
Don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but these numbers come pretty directly from the fact that the balls do end up rolling across each other in many cases. The rolling explains the measured values of throw in a very convincing way.
Jim
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Jal said:
Well, ok now I am confused. Please understand that I am not trying to argue, rather only trying to understand.
Byrne says 2% (with clean balls, considerably more if dirty) and you say 35.7%, and I read somewhere else 10%. That is a very sizable difference.
Would dirty balls make that much difference?
Is the 35.7% the combination of spin and contact induced? If so, what would be the % of each to = 35.7% ?
Steve
All this spin is making my head do just that!
androd said:
You're right that less spin is transferred with draw (follow too).
You might see more spin transferred by jacking up, but it's not because you jacked up - it's probably because jacking up causes you to hit stop shots, and stop shots maximize spin transfer. But you can hit a stop shot with a level cue and get just as much spin transfer as you would by jacking up. In fact, you probably get less sidespin on the CB when you jack up, so you might get less transferred spin that way even with a stun shot.
pj
chgo
Unless I missed it nobody has touched on the other 1/2 of this "equation". Draw & follow are also transmitted from the CB to the OB. This concept is VERY useful in throwing frozen balls and I'm sure all the experts can explain the physics of it, which only makes MY head hurt.....
Joe
Joe
How much of the CB's surface speed is contributed by CB spin vs. CB lateral movement is different for each shot, and it doesn't matter to the percentage that's transferred.
pj
chgo
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It happens when you're getting contradictory statements. Sorry about that. We're quibbling about numbers here which really aren't all that important to a player.sde said:
I probably should have started out by agreeing that when you apply maximum english, or draw or follow on a full hit, only a relatively small percentage of spin is transfered. Your figure of less than 10% is true and good. But when you reduce the spin on the CB, the amount of induced spin on the OB is increased both in an absolute sense, as well as a percentage of CB spin.
On a full hit, in going from zero spin to some upper limiting value, the percentage transfer is always 35.7%. It applies to english, draw and follow, or a combination thereof. However, that upper limiting value is a function of how clean or dirty the balls are, as well as shot speed. For typical balls, it seems to be around half of maximum spin, at least for softer hit shots. It probably goes down for harder shots.sde said:
Hope that's a little clearer.
Jim
It may only be a small % of english that is transferred but that english changes the path of the object ball off the rail in a HUGE way. The person who started this thread needs to set up some banks the same way each time then put left spin on the first shot then right spin on the second shot. He will find that certain banks are only possible if you use the right spin.
Another fun fact: Yes draw and follow can be applied to object balls and COMPLETELY change the path of the object ball but here's the thing:
The more weight behind the object ball i.e. the stripe you are shooting at has 1 or more balls frozen behind it or even the rail, then the more spin is transferred to that ob because the cue ball and object ball are in contact for a longer period of time.
Another fun fact: Yes draw and follow can be applied to object balls and COMPLETELY change the path of the object ball but here's the thing:
The more weight behind the object ball i.e. the stripe you are shooting at has 1 or more balls frozen behind it or even the rail, then the more spin is transferred to that ob because the cue ball and object ball are in contact for a longer period of time.