Traveling to other countries with cues with ivory....

mazinga74

mazinga74

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I understand that if you buy cues from other country and are shipped here there is a chance that you may not receive the cue because it has ivory.
Now my question is what about traveling with your personal cue that has ivory joint and some inlays? I see that many pros travel from countries to countries with their cues that have ivory and seem to not have any problems. Do customs not care as much when you have your own cue or if they find out that the cue has ivory will they take it from you? I know that Efren travels with his ivory joint cue and also Ralf also travels with ivory joint Joss cues or he did. I am sure there are a lot more players traveling with ivory cues. What do you guys think??
Thanks
 
If you think it might be a concern, try to bring a certificate of authintication and verification of purchase with you when traveling.
 
I have been to dozens of countries with my Black Boar AS8 which has big ivory windows (in my aviator) and ivory stars. The cue goes in the case and travel bag and they never ask to inspect it. If they do, more than likely they will not know that cues are made with ivory and will not ask. If they do ask just say it is a cheap cue with imitation ivory or that it is bone ivory and I am sure they will not bother wasting any time getting it tested. They are more concerned with people bringing through large quantities of the product such as a pair of elephant tusks. Don't worry about it.
 
just to clarify . . .

mazinga74 said:
I understand that if you buy cues from other country and are shipped here there is a chance that you may not receive the cue because it has ivory.
Now my question is what about traveling with your personal cue that has ivory joint and some inlays? I see that many pros travel from countries to countries with their cues that have ivory and seem to not have any problems. Do customs not care as much when you have your own cue or if they find out that the cue has ivory will they take it from you? I know that Efren travels with his ivory joint cue and also Ralf also travels with ivory joint Joss cues or he did. I am sure there are a lot more players traveling with ivory cues. What do you guys think??
Thanks
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It is just as illegal to cross the border of a CITES signee, which I think includes over 200 countries, with ivory if it involves a purchase or just travel. When you travel between CITES countries there are four times the cue could raise issues. Leaving the original country, entering the second one, leaving the second one, and entering the first one again. Add two more chances at any international stop at any CITES signee along the way. There have been several instances of ivory being confiscated in the last year and somebody lost a cue for a year or two that contained fake ivory by the time they got around to determining it wasn't ivory.

Odds are pretty thin of the issue coming up. If it does then you don't have a leg to stand on. If I traveled over borders with my cue with Ivorine joint and ferrule I would document that it isn't ivory and carry the proof with me. That might or might not be accepted. If I had a cue that was irreplaceable I probably wouldn't travel across borders with it. On the other hand if I made my living playing pool I might decide traveling with a cue containing ivory or appearing to was a risk I had to take if it mattered to the quality of my game.

There are severe criminal penalties that can be applied so the authorities have a major club to use if they want your cue or anything else containing ivory or simply want to harass you. Missed flights and the threat of huge fines and imprisonment are enough to make me very cautious. People can and do get away with flying with ivory dozens of times. People also lose items the first time they travel with them. The risk is slight, but is it worth any risk in today's heightened security checks and considering that cues are supposed to be checked baggage? All it takes is one Barney Fife to make your life hell.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
It is just as illegal to cross the border of a CITES signee, which I think includes over 200 countries, with ivory if it involves a purchase or just travel. When you travel between CITES countries there are four times the cue could raise issues. Leaving the original country, entering the second one, leaving the second one, and entering the first one again. Add two more chances at any international stop at any CITES signee along the way. There have been several instances of ivory being confiscated in the last year and somebody lost a cue for a year or two that contained fake ivory by the time they got around to determining it wasn't ivory.

Odds are pretty thin of the issue coming up. If it does then you don't have a leg to stand on. If I traveled over borders with my cue with Ivorine joint and ferrule I would document that it isn't ivory and carry the proof with me. That might or might not be accepted. If I had a cue that was irreplaceable I probably wouldn't travel across borders with it. On the other hand if I made my living playing pool I might decide traveling with a cue containing ivory or appearing to was a risk I had to take if it mattered to the quality of my game.

There are severe criminal penalties that can be applied so the authorities have a major club to use if they want your cue or anything else containing ivory or simply want to harass you. Missed flights and the threat of huge fines and imprisonment are enough to make me very cautious. People can and do get away with flying with ivory dozens of times. People also lose items the first time they travel with them. The risk is slight, but is it worth any risk in today's heightened security checks and considering that cues are supposed to be checked baggage? All it takes is one Barney Fife to make your life hell.

Hu
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Well I agree but isnt there small risk on anything we do? We could take the cue to a pool hall and there is a risk that we can have someone steal it.
Is this risk so big that we just dont do it or do it knowing that there is small risk in everything we do???? Also how would you document your ivory in your cue? I don't think a cue maker writing a letter stating it's pre banned ivory would really help any???
 
mazinga74 said:
Also how would you document your ivory in your cue? I don't think a cue maker writing a letter stating it's pre banned ivory would really help any???
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FWIW - and I may be wrong, documenting the source of the Ivory makes no difference. You can't take it out of the country , period.
 
as long as when they confiscate your cue and you miss your connecting flights and may face a large fine as well. you dont complain and realize you took the risk. as that is what will happen sooner or later.
 
everybody's personal call where they draw the line

mazinga74 said:
Well I agree but isnt there small risk on anything we do? We could take the cue to a pool hall and there is a risk that we can have someone steal it.
Is this risk so big that we just dont do it or do it knowing that there is small risk in everything we do???? Also how would you document your ivory in your cue? I don't think a cue maker writing a letter stating it's pre banned ivory would really help any???
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ALL ivory becomes illegal when it crosses the border of a CITES country with very rare exceptions. Owning it, pre-ban, stealing, smuggling, buying it, on and on, it is equally illegal to cross a CITES signee border with it. Everything we do entails risk, you are absolutely right. Flying is risky although not very. Flying with ivory adds a level of risk. Flying with a pound of coke adds more risk. Yelling "hi" to your friend Jack raises the risk to a whole 'nuther level. Doing them all at once . . . Where we decide the risk becomes too high is an individual decision. A cue maker sold four cues with ivory that were exported to England. Those four cues illegally exported resulted in hundreds of thousands in fines, legal fees, and confiscated legal and illegal property including 200 pounds of totally legal ivory that was originally confiscated and never returned. If I remember correctly the fine alone for those four cues crossing the border was $100,000. The whole deal resulted in his whole operation and home being gone over with a fine toothed comb and years of scrutiny, probably a lifetime of it. It all started with the sale of four cues with ivory.

As I said in my first post, it is a matter of risk tolerance. If your risk tolerance is great enough that you are willing to risk losing your cue, being held in custody, large fines, and possible imprisonment to tote ivory across borders when you know it is illegal do feel free to go for it. The case arising from the four cues sold illegally, very possibly out of ignorance of the law at the time, made big front page news. A major coke bust that hit the news the same day was buried several pages back. The ivory in the cues was pre-ban by the way, it just illegally crossed two CITES borders.

Who woulda thought a little bit of ivory already part of four cues would turn into such a big deal? Well, it is a federal case, international really, I think Interpol was involved too.

Hu
 
To each their own. I won't buy a cue containing Ivory. No, I'm not a raving PETA type. I just can't see purposely exposing myself to the hassles that could happen.

There are many good looking cues with sweet hits without Ivory...I'll stick to those.
 
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Reptile wraps could be a problem, too. They go up and down on enforcement, and if it was a cue I couldn't stand to lose, I wouldn't risk it. You'd also have a stiff fine to pay, too, depending on the country. You're more likely to get caught by our own customs officials when you return...
 
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maha said:
as long as when they confiscate your cue and you miss your connecting flights and may face a large fine as well. you dont complain and realize you took the risk. as that is what will happen sooner or later.
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Please correct me if I am wrong but I don't believe I've seen or heard of any pros traveling into US ever having a problem. Ex. Efren uses a cue with ivory joint and so those Ralf and many others. They come and go all the time. Maybe I just haven't heard anything. Does anyone know of any story or has anyone here on az had this problem??? So far it just sounds like if you get extremely unlucky these things could happen. Does anyone here have any experience???
 
When I lived in Japan, I owned a Wes Hunter with a pressed pigskin wrap, and LBM ferrules. I tried to send it to the US for some modifications to be done when it was confiscated by the US Fish and Wildlife for two reasons. They suspected the wrap to be monitor lizard, which was illegal to ship from country to country, and secondly they suspected the ferrules to be ivory.

After several emails and phone calls, I was able to get my cue shipped back to me in Japan, but learned lot's about what rights I don't have. I was told that they legally had the right to strip the wrap in question, and remove the ferrules (any way they can) in order to test the materials. Keep in mind that they suspected a pressed pigskin wrap to be monitor lizard, and they suspected LBM ferrules that clearly had the little criss cross stitch patterns to be ivory. And, whatever damage they due to the cue in removal of both the wrap and/or ferrules..................they are not responsible for.
So, they can suspect...................tear shit up to test................find out they were wrong........................and you get your cue back in whatever condition without any restitution. It's their right.
On the flip side of this story, when I moved back to the US, I brought with me in my suitcase my Wes Hunter, a Scruggs loaded with ivory, and a Cog loaded with ivory, and nobody ever took a second look at any of these cues.
It's a risk you take, and the chances are you'll never have any problem, but if they ever suspect illegal materials, they pretty much have the right to do anything they wish.
dave
 
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