Tribute Or Copy - Where To Draw The Line?

[JB Cases]

Gentlemen,

The OP asked a legitimate question about cues marketed as "Tributes" and where we should draw the line in accepting that characterization rather than calling them out as copies or fakes.

Your feud has no place in this thread. IMO, it has no place on a public forum at all, but that's not my decision to make or enforce. If you want to air your grievances on this forum, I suggest you start your own thread so that those of us who were genuinely interested in the OP's question are not subjected to your petty squabbles. Better yet, please take note of the AZBilliards private messaging function and utilize it to hash out your differences in private.

JB, I love your cases. Classic, I've enjoyed visiting your website for years. But this type of behavior on a public forum by people who (like it or not) represent the pool/billiards industry is bad for everyone who loves pool, and that includes both of you. I have no problem with spirited debate over an issue, and internet forums are ideally suited for that type of discussion. However, that's not what both of you are doing here. Please keep this fight between yourselves where it belongs and leave the rest of us out of it.

I would LOVE to keep it out of the public arena. Unfortunately Joe keeps bringing it back into the public arena.

I have held out an olive branch many times over the years. Every time in person he says we're cool and then not much later he's back on the attack again.

It's very frustrating. But I will take your advice and really quit now.

 

[Otterman]

Thank you, John.

 

[Snapshot9]

Basically

People are only interested in the best product for the money.... period.
This has become the foundation for International Marketing.

 

[Otterman]

"Tributes" and copies....

I didn't see the Viattore W/FS post that prompted this conversation, but I find the OP's question interesting and worthy of discussion, particularly in our modern society where ideas and information are readily available to millions (or billions) of people in an instant. The broader issue of copyright and patent protection will be litigated for years to come. Technology, communication and global travel have simply moved far faster than the rules/laws necessary to govern them can be written, enforced, argued and re-written.

Most everyone here seems to agree that there are no legal obstacles to a cuemaker building a cue with design elements emulated from another cuemaker (so long as the design isn't patented by the original maker). Counterfeit cues are obviously violation of law. So, it seems like we're trying to weigh this issue from a standpoint of morality, and that's always a slippery slope. Every portrait artist since Rembrandt has been influenced by his work (knowingly or not). Is any artist that paints water lilies or ballerinas copying Monet and Degas? To bring things into the present, is anyone that takes a nude black-and-white photo of a mother and child infringing on the rights Annie Liebovitz?

Custom cues complicate the issue by adding a sports dimension, like half tennis racket and half Mona Lisa. However, the basic construction of almost all cues is the same, perfected over decades by craftsman by taking the design ideas of those that came before and further perfecting them. Unless a cuemaker designs and builds a cue that has some fundamental design difference, I don't see any deserving protection for elements that are largely cosmetic. Plus, the buyer who wishes to purchase a Tad, Szamboti, Ginacue, Hercek, etc., isn't buying the cue to take down to the local bar and play league 8-ball; He's buying it as a collectible. Those who buy a cue that resembles that of a famous maker are typically buying a playing cue that has a particular look they like. I can't imagine that Barry Szamboti's business has been damaged in any way by Travis Nicklich constructing and selling a nice playing cue that pays homage to his Dad's design style.

Lastly, it seems that most cues that are labeled as a "Tribute" cue have been given that name by a seller in order to describe the cue, not to mislead anyone or to somehow steal from a particular cuemaker's success. Most people here immediately know what a "SouthWest-style" cue basically looks like without the seller having to describe every detail.

 

[ribdoner]

Regarding copies when is it acceptable to make a copy?

Lets say you own a Bushka / Boti / Cantando or whatever, you and him worked the design together. Now with the value going up, you want to put the cue away. Can you make, or have made, a copy of that cue?

You give a design, totally one off to a custom cuemaker. Can you give the same design to cuemaker B for an identical build.

JV

my concept and $$$, i'll do wtf i want

 

[classiccues]

How do we know that? I don't you claiming copyright on your site? You know so much about copyright then you should know enough that you have to claim it. .

I don't care if you know it. As far as claiming it, you know I don't steal images without asking it would never occur to me to have to worry about someone in the same business taking it

No but it could happen that the person doing the website redesign looked around on the net and found your image not connected to your site and grabbed it.

That happens all the time. If your image is so cool then why didn't Roy "steal" all of them from your site if he was on your site to steal that one? Why not take all the cue names which Roy carries? Why wouldn't he take the Bill Schick image, why not the Lambros and other cues he represents? Why ONLY the SouthWest?

Sorry no pass. I just cross checked with two image search engines and they both clearly list where the image is located. Again, you are trying to make excuses for your friends, a complaint you have when everyone else does it.

Nope I knew it was hijacked when someone told me. Again, I shouldn't have to police the internet. But you can look at the site, cues he doesn't have logos for, someone makes them with a font, just like I would. However for SW they decided to go another route. They should have checked.

Well, for cases classic is cool, for websites it's not. Meaning you have NO GROUNDS to even begin to criticize anyone else's website design. In fact there is a site which lampoons horrible website design and if I find it again then yours is getting submitted. We are going to get you that award yet.[\QUOTE]

The difference is my site only looks like a 6 year old did it, in your case it just might be the case.

Made in XXX is a marketing gimmick. No more no less. Hiring illegal immigrants when you stand on a "support American workers" soapbox....well I think we can all see that is..[\QUOTE]

LOL its only a gimmick when it works against you. Yep, all ready explained.

No, I didn't make money off the use of the logos. The customer would have purchased the case with or without them. Just so you know it's perfectly legal for anyone to redraw any logo or any image and affix it to any personal item they want. Called fair use. They can't sell that item as an official licensed item, can't profit off the use. So when I redraw an image for a customer and affix it to a case then it's the same as if they did it. But if I paste a bunch of NFL logos on my site and offer to allow the customer to choose which one he wants then that is clear infringement. ..[\QUOTE]

This is pure BS. You profitted off someone elses work, big surprise, and if it was pushed by these companies you'ld lose. How do I know this, we had a local company have to remove the Tazmanian devil with a tool belt off his van.

Actually Joe, you are responsible to police the entire internet for your pictures and graphics. Your little glowing font carried no attribution. So the fact is that anyone who uses it has no way to know where it came from if they find it in the wild. By in the wild I mean that someone could have snatched it up to use in collection of images that they give away or sell. Someone could have come across it on your site and taken it to to use on their SouthWest Art site where it could have then been found by Roy or his web master. Without a copyright claim embedded in the image no one can trace it back to you.

You should really spend a little more time reading up on how the pros do it before making accusations. I know for a fact that Roy did not find that image on your site. He did steal it from you.

There is no way that the image can be traced to you by simply possessing that image.

No watermark, no copyright notice, no nothing. Not on the image and not on your website. Well if you don't care to put a copyright notice on your images using the copyright convention prescribed by law then don't get pissy when people take your images and use them without your permission...[\QUOTE]

We agree that he stole it, at least thats consistent. First off there are 10000000's of images that do not have copyrights. He just chose that one. Let me tell you I had to look hard twice to find that image, which makes me believe even moreso it was a direct swipte.

Um if it was a free GIF site then you didn't need to ask. Although.....how can you be sure that they had the right to give you those gifs?????? Maybe you inadvertently "stole" them from the real owners and have been using them illegally for 12 years..[\QUOTE]

This is how we are different. I e-mailed them anyways because I use the site to sell. Because maybe they had a different set of rules for commercial sites. I ask the questions BEFORE I do something, 99% of the time.

I am sure you did. Bet you spent hours on the phone tracking down the author and his heirs to get those rights to his story.....yes, you have to lie because the soapbox you are on is so shaky that if you just admitted that you posted the story without asking anyone's permission then it would disintegrate from the weight of the hypocrisy.

No one here believes you spent time looking for the people who own the copyright on an article in a billiard magazine in 1964. A man who hires illegal immigrants while espousing "Buy America" and "Keep America Working" can't be bothered with trivialities like that.

I don't care if you believe it or not. But then again, who would believe someone that says he went to China because he loves the place, not to set up a more profitable shop.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Please, If I wanted to and I though it was worth it I could print out your posts and bust you up so badly that no one would ever consider taking you seriously ever again on anything..

So what you are saying is that you post stories which you yourself have no idea whether they are true or not about working conditions in some parts of China for the purpose of what? To enlighten people about how bad the Chinese people have it before you commit genocide on them to put them out of their misery? ..

I post stories that are written on reputable news sites. Sorry their views are different from yours. Plus half the items are from Chinese people / journalists.

Once again as I said I don't go into those for sale threads and rag on the sellers because they are only trying to make some lunch money selling what they can get from the importers. They are the lowest link in the chain. I might as well harangue the guy on Canal street selling fake Gucci bags. Really it's almost the same as picking on you for hiring illegal labor. Why wouldn't you take advantage of the opportunity to save money by not hiring Americans?..

Oh but you claim to see all the threads selling fakes? So do you or don't you? You obviously know how many fakes that we all don't say anything about but you know, come after you instead. I could hire illegals right now and still save myself boatloads of money. But I don't have to.

I came to China as an employee for Sterling Gaming. On assignment to handle quality control and product development. While here I met a wonderful woman, we fell in love and got married. I started another case business and my wife and I had a daughter. So my family is here and my business is here. Of course having cheaper labor allows me the opportunity to pour a lot more resources into case making than I would have were my shop in the USA. I did own a business in the USA and employed 8 people. So here due to division of labor I can afford to spend extra people hours on the cases and provide a better product to my customers for less money than I would have to charge were my shop in the USA if I built to the same standard. As it is my customers know that they are getting a better product than comparable ones made in the USA for comparably less money. We aren't always the cheapest but we tend to be the best in side by side comparisons. So I am lucky that I am in China where I can afford to make a wide range of cases and afford to make the quality super high. It's a win for us and a win for our customers.?..

Sure it is. You can make a fellini style case for less than Fellini and charge 10x as much, I am sure its all about customer savings. John, who do you think you are talking to? See the other major difference is I say I would take out 10 million chinese to save american jobs, I didn't pull american jobs overseas under the guise of quality. Its money, and we all know it. And anyone with a brain that can backward calculate the case on common material costs knows exactly whats going on.

Behind your back? You complained about me mentioning you on a public forum? Am I supposed to check the membership roster on all billiard forums before saying your name in conversation? Coming from a guy who doesn't have the adult courtesy to pick up the phone and call a fellow dealer in the same business to complain about a tiny issue that could have been resolved in five minutes that's a bit laughable. And to say that you would eliminate a significant portion of the world's population to achieve peace for the rest shows just how inhumane you really are.

There is no reason to even mention me in the thread. You took it upon yourself, thats how you are. You had NO REASON. Laughable, if you had a graphic worth taking, I guess we could do a comparison. You were in the surface, sometimes you need to sacrafice a few for the good of the many.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Useless nonsense snipped.

JV

Joe, since you love to sell old stuff if you come to China I will take you across the street from house where there is a nice sized antique mall in a converted factory.

In this place all the stores are very high end and they have art, sculpture, furniture, rare books, jewelry and a plethora of other interesting things spanning the thousands of years of China's civilization.

I know that it's hard for you to understand that people do things that are not always motivated by money but in fact a lot of people live and work in China because they genuinely like the country and its people.

I have spent ten years in Germany and now five years in China. I sincerely hope that at least once in your life you are able to experience the depth and wonder that is China. Yes, China has a lower labor rate than the USA, and the USA has a lower labor rate than Germany, and Vietnam has a lower labor rate than China as do most African countries. And Louisiana has a lower labor rate than New York. Disparity in labor rates exist all over the world.

When you only focus on that then I feel you miss the point. You don't look deeper at the human side or the historical side. For myself I would feel very shallow if I only looked at the world in terms of differences. I live here here because I choose to live here.

I enjoy this country for all it's history and it's culture differences, some of which are amusing, some frustrating and some sad. For me it's a wonderful social experiment to see how much I can influence the people I work with and share my culture with them. In turn they share theirs with me and each day brings a little more understanding of why they do things the way they do it.

Unlike the USA which is only a few hundred years old in terms of the predominant culture that exists there now the average Chinese family can trace their ancestry back a thousand years or more. What that means is that there are deep seated social and cultural characteristics that go way deeper than what the form of government is that is in power. When I am here I am connected with the people with little regard to the government. I do what I do wherever I happen to be and according to the means available to me.

I didn't come to China to set up a production facility because of the low labor rates.

I came here on a one-year deal to work on quality control and product development for Sterling. I stayed because I fell in love and got married.

I really do how that someday you get to spend some time in this country and appreciate all the beauty and depth that is here. Everything that you miss when you only focus on the sensationalist and negative stories. I really hope that some day you get to come here and see how the people really live, how they work, what factory life is like, the good and the bad. Some day my wish for you is that you can get a true experience of China and not be dependent on the news and other people's accounts.

There is a lot of really nasty stuff that happens here. And there is incredible beauty and artistry that is not really found anywhere else in the world. You can only experience it when you are here.

You are my guest Joe. Despite everything you have said about me, everything you try to do to me, how you feel about the world, you are my guest if you come here. I will show you the China you don't get via the internet.

Have a really great life Joe. I mean that sincerely. Whatever you think and feel ultimately is your choice to think and feel that way. We do have power to alter our consciousness and overcome our biological and neurochemical impulses most of the time. Between stimulus and response lies choice for most people. Some people are of course damaged and their ability to choose is damaged. But for most responding in the negative is a choice. So I choose to forgive you and choose to think of you as human, with all the faults and biases that humans can possess.

Whatever you do I hope it it what makes you happy. That's what I am doing and I would wish no less for you.

I apologize on behalf of my friend Roy Malott that somehow your graphic ended up on his site. He is one of the greatest people in this business that I know in the 25 years that I have been in it. A real heart of gold. Those that really really know him know this. He is not a thief and therefore I choose to believe that his is innocent of deliberately stealing your image. Regardless though it's was there and so that obviously has pained you to a great degree and so I apologize to you that my friend caused you pain.

I hope that someday you will find it in your heart to forgive him.

All the best to you,

John Barton, reporting from China.

 

[cfrandy]

In the original thread there was a lot of disingenuous information by the OP. First, bad form comparing the cue to the original and saying get the same cue for 1/3 the price. That tactic alone is pure b.s., and should have had the thread pulled immediately.

If you're going to list a cue that is questionable, do NOT do that. It's bad enough the design is borrowed now you have to knock the design originators price.

The other small mitigating factor is origination of the product. It's time the Asian community starts getting a little blowback from this practice. When the feathers cue issue surfaced, he (Ernie) got on the phone with Paul and they discussed this. Being a US company if Ernie wanted to protect his copyright, he can do so, with a lot more ease, than pulling in a Phillipino company. This is why the Pacific rim has NO RESPECT for copyrighted materials, If they can copy it, they will do it. See the Bautista / Crisp threads...

I personally do not have an issue with cdt, but being offshore should not give you immunity in the discussion.

JV

Next time we disagree with what YOU post in your sales thread we will all be happy to TRASH it in the same manner as you did! What goes around comes around...right?

The definition of "tribute" is "expression of gratitude or praise" which is exactly what a cuebuilder does when he makes a "tribute" cue.
Only one person should be commenting on a Gina tribute, that's Ernie...not YOU!

 

[cfrandy]

On a lighter note....I recently saw an episode of Peoples Court that concerned the copyright of images. The guy suing had his images used by a web site without his permission so he sued for compensation. The guy lost, because he never copyrighted his images. The judge told him that he could still copyright the images and then sue to have the images removed once the images were copyrighted. The person would at that point have to stop using the copyrighted images, but he would not get compensation for their use before they were copyrighted. If the person continued to use the images after they were copyrighted then he could sue them for monetary damages which would be based on proven loss and/or precedent. :idea:

The judge was wrong! Most materials, including images, are copyrighted the moment they are created! It is true, you cannot sue for compensation if the work is not registered...but you could successfully sue to have the images removed. The judge should have instructed the person to stop using the images!

 

[scsuxci]

The judge was wrong! Most materials, including images, are copyrighted the moment they are created! It is true, you cannot sue for compensation if the work is not registered...but you could successfully sue to have the images removed. The judge should have instructed the person to stop using the images!

If its not registered the person has no case,thats why anybody can have 500 pages stating that they were the one who originated the idea but without a patent the idea can be stolen by anybody and has been done thousands of times already.Unless everything is under legal paper your screwed.

 

[cfrandy]

IMO, when the person making the "tribute" cue is doing so for their own personal gain.

You want to make a "tribute" cue so that is can be auctioned off for kids with cancer or some other act which will not actually finacially benefit yourself? I am cool with that and I am guessing the original cue maker would be as well.

But the minute you do a so called "tribute" in order to sell the cue and put food on your plate or pay for your mortgage it is not a true tribute, you are simply stealing the design and using sematics to try and make it seem less lame.

Most of the time a "tribute" is just a way of saying "I want to steal your design and sell some cues that look exactly the same so I can make some money off of your fame and designs, but I don't want my reputation to be tarnished by doing it so I am calling it a "tribute"".

So based on what you're saying anyone making a Balabushka tribute is "stealing"? Afterall, any Balabushka tributes made today do NOT benefit the Balabushka family! Oh...except those made by the Adams company since they have purchased the rights to make Balabushka tributes? Right?

Here's a whole thread of "thieves": http://forums2.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=238498

 

[schmizz]

If its not registered the person has no case,thats why anybody can have 500 pages stating that they were the one who originated the idea but without a patent the idea can be stolen by anybody and has been done thousands of times already.Unless everything is under legal paper your screwed.

The judge said the guy using the images had a "moral obligation" to remove the images, but that could not be enforced by the courts, her hands were tied until the images had a legally enforceable copyright.

 

[cfrandy]

Like the Zinzola Szam tribute currently being offered for sale. To me, there's a huge difference between contacting the Szam family and asking permission, as they did in this case, or just blatantly copying a guys design. One seems to be showing respect, the other seems like, well, theft. Using the name of the guy you stole the design from to enhance the value of your offering is an insult.

Kevin

Kevin, I think you are being a little inconsistent here. How did TAD and YOU show respect when he copied a Brunswick design and called his cue a "Titlist" when in fact it was not a "Titlist"? You even refused to call it a "Tribute" instead, calling it a "modern Titlist". How does THAT show respect to Brunswick? http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=235485
I guess when YOU want to sell something, you will call it anything you like (copyrights or not). However when someone else does what YOU do...you take issue and claim they are not showing respect.

 

[scsuxci]

The judge said the guy using the images had a "moral obligation" to remove the images, but that could not be enforced by the courts, her hands were tied until the images had a legally enforceable copyright.

That makes sense in this day an age its all about legal binding contracts.Unfortunately morals aren't worth a pinch of crowsh-t nowadays.

 

[JB Cases]

Look folks it's really easy. When you are selling something then using the word "Tribute" is a way to describe the product and tie it in to the original design. It's simply marketing with attribution to the source.

Tribute comes from attribute. Which is to say acknowledgement of characteristics. As in he has many fine attributes. Or you can attribute the fine composition to him.

Using the word "tribute" in sales is marketingspeak for "we took the elements of X and used them in our product"

It's not necessarily malicious or even immoral and certainly in most cases not illegal. It just IS part of life.

And it IS a way to use the design stylings of others to sell products. No way around it. If you as a maker deliberately use the distinctive style of another maker who preceded you as the platform to build your products then you are copying them, "stealing" from them, USING them.

Imagine for a moment what you would have to pay Ernie Gutierrez to sit in your shop and design cues for you? Not talking about construction just the look of the cues. What kind of money would his time cost you?

Well, when you COPY his work then you got all the time spent on the visual design for free.

Now, imagine you sit in your shop dreaming of something radical, something no one has ever done before and you spend months building it, coming up with jigs and techniques that no one has ever used. At the end you come out with this cue that is amazing in appearance. No one even has a clue except other cue makers how hard it was to do.

You bask in the glow of admiration from your peers and major compliments from cue buyers.

Then one month later someone comes out with a near duplicate of your cue. They call it a tribute and list it for sale.

How do you feel at that moment? Do you feel complimented that another cue maker would like your design enough to do it or do you feel slighted that another cue maker would take your hard work and use it for themselves?

That's what it comes down to in this business. This business is a very small world.

MOST of the people in it do it more for the love of the game than any financial success. A FEW people are doing very well and most cue makers and case makers struggle.

So at the end for a lot of them success comes in what they create and how well those creations are received.

Dead nuts copies are offensive on one level. On another level they are necessary because only through emulating the masters do we move along the path of becoming the masters.

BUT

It's one thing to copy someone in service of bettering your skill and quite another to do it only in service of bettering your bank account.

When it's the latter people get very testy.

But

Some people can't tell the difference and this is why there can be no hard line. Some people can't tell when a creation is a copy or an evolution of style.

Thus emotions run hot people get super pissy with each other and hilarity ensues......