Trick shots and physics

[Bluewolf]

Having come up with a trick-shot which appears to require lots of skill,(one of those things that just flips into one's brain) in fact, it appears more difficult than anything I have seen on TV or heard of, and perhaps more difficult than the one resulting in someone who was able to go 11 rails. The only thing mine and that person's shot have in common is that both shots begin by sending the cb airborne, though the techniques to send the cueball airborne may be different.. That is, if this one is not IMPOSSIBLE.

Now, this is where this idea came from and one of the difficulties I am having is determining what is happening in terms of physics/spin to that air borne cb. I had been doing a shot, mostly for fun, in which an ob was near a corner pocket, and could be easily pocketed with regular spin, but with, consequently after striking the cb, being only a few inches from the adjacent long rail, and what appeared to be a small angle of incidence. So in this shot, I hit the cb hard, with a nearly vertical downward strike, with a very small amount of inside. Then when the ball went airborne, it struck and pocketed the ob, and created a larger angle into the cushion than would normally be obtained with regular spin and then ran down the length of the table for a strike on the opposite end rail. So, not only was the angle increased, but so was the velocity. Now I am not sure where in this airborne strike the ob was hit, but it definitely hit the cushion airborn. I have speculated that the ob is hit at the beginning of the airborn arc, hitting the cushion on the downward arc, but again, not knowing for sure if this is what is happening.

So to be able to predict its action onto the other rails, I need to know what such a hit is DOING to the cb, to create such an effect. And, of course, I need to know the physics of that shot, and what velocity can be created to see if the rest of the shot is scientifically posible.

I have been emailing with Tom Rossman, who right off the bat agreed to look at the shot,and determine if it can be done, once I can provide him with the diagram and a verbal description.But I cannot produce a diagram without knowing what is happening. I have, also in my mind, the possibility of starting with the airborn, without an ob involved, if this would result in more velocity to kick in the other balls. He has really been encouraging me to do this, also. A real nice guy.

The difficulty in the shot comes in:

1) Accurately predicting kick angles, which would have to be very thin cuts, so that little energy is imparted to the pocketed balls, enabling the cb to continue around multiple rails. Not nearly as many rails as the 11 rail one, but more difficult because of the accuracy of the kicks required by the TSA.

2) The other part of the difficulty is being able to put the airborne ob on the cushion at a specified angle and with sufficient force, which would theoretically be able to give it enough velocity to kick in the other shot(s),at the desired angles and go a specified number of rails, also based on what is posible by the laws of physics, determined by the amount of velocity which can be obtained from that airborne hit on the cb.

Now, I am not experienced enough that I jump obstructing balls. This is not something I have even attempted because I am currently working on shape. Also, it is of greater desire to me, to master multiple rail kicks,banks,masses before jumping over balls. I have been able to kick around an obstructing ball, however, on some occasions, by doing a slight variation,but the cb is not to the naked eye airborne, where a normal kick would not have been able to strike that ball. In those cases, sufficient kick angle could not be produced to strike the desired ball, due to the proximity of the balls to the rail and to each other, so curve resulted in a kick, which appeared to be otherwize impossible. Some might say in those cases, that perhaps it is a masse kick, but without knowing when a ball is a curve, at what point it becomes masse and so forth, it was kind of a feel kind of thing and consequently one which I cannot define.

So, I need some physics to explain, first, what is producing the initial effect on the airborne cueball.

Thanks in advance.

Laura

 

[Colin Colenso]

It's quite hard to work out the shot/shots you are talking about Laura.

Try to put the balls in the positions you mean using the Wei Table:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html


My guess it is something like where the one ball is in this image.
START(
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%[K2T4%\s5S7%eA7a4%bs8S0%cs2Q8%dr4S0
)END

But this shot is usually pretty easy to get on the 9 as shown in the diagram using center left english. You can also play it with draw. What you may have done is actually masse'd the cue ball. This is another way but not very consistant, though I use these shots occaisionally in matches.

There is a jump shot as shown on the 8 baall, where the cue ball lands on the side of the cushion and bounces up the table. This is a desperation shot, but I saw Fong Pang Chao play this in this years world champs when he was left with a terrible angle and couldn't use a power draw or follow shot to get the cue ball up table.

btw: Jump shots are very easy with jump cues. It's just accuracy or putting spin on them that is tricky.

 

[sjm]

... it is of greater desire to me, to master multiple rail kicks,banks,masses before jumping over balls. Thanks in advance.
Laura

If that's how you feel, Laura, then you are a role model. When it comes to a player who is learning the game, I feel strongly on these two points:

1) it is best to learn how to use the bridge before learning how to shoot with the opposite hand

2) it is best to learn how to kick and masse before you learn how to jump

As #2 above is basically a repetition of the point you have made, let's dwell on it.

I believe that far too many weak players overutilize the jump cue, and many use the jump cue just to avoid having to kick or masse, even in positions where a kick or masse shot would be the better percentage for a more accomplished player. The result is that a lot of weak players never get around to becoming skilled at kick or masse shots, and I feel that this gets in the way of their development.

From time to time, I've asked some "C" and "D" players why they use a jump cue and their answer is always "everyone else has one, so I don't want to give up an edge." It's tough to argue with that kind of logic, yet I wish I could think of something to say when somebody offers that answer.

The jump shot has it's place in nine ball, but if a player has kicking, masse shots, and jump shots in thier arsenal, then they have all the options the pros have when they face a snooker, and they won't have to use the jump cue as a crutch for the fact that they never got around to becoming proficient at kicking and masse shots.

"Learn the game of pool in two dimensions first", I've often said.

 

[Bluewolf]

If that's how you feel, Laura, then you are a role model. When it comes to a player who is learning the game, I feel strongly on these two points:

1) it is best to learn how to use the bridge before learning how to shoot with the opposite hand

2) it is best to learn how to kick and masse before you learn how to jump

"Learn the game of pool in two dimensions first", I've often said.

I think kicking and masses are fun at least for me, to try them, and to try to get better at them. I just think that they are way kool.To me it is fun to, if snooker behind your opponents ball, to try to see if you can kick it in or try to masse around it for at least a legal hit. I also like kick pots, they are fun too, and give more angle often too. Now as far as kicking 2-3 rails with any but ocassional success, I am not there yet.I like them in practice, but in a match, if the kick is beyond my skills, I then get to decide if there is any way to do a bad hit, and mess up the other players balls more, so bih is undoing the mess I created for them, rather than just taking a wild card chance on a kick that is above my skill, knowing full well that in most cases they would get bih with their balls in a more advantageuos position than if I messed their balls up.

I also wondered if players were using that jump cue to avoid developing kicking skills. I just do not understand that mentality because kicking is fun.

As far as the offhand thing, well, I generally agree, but I am somewhat ambidextrous, although still better on one side. So on certain shots, which are not difficult, I switch hands and pot the ball. It is pretty easy, these are short shots, not long difficult ones. I mean, if it is a short easy shot,why pull out the bridge on that easy shot, just because I cannot reach it with my right?

But other than that I agree with you. Learning to shoot with the other hand as opposed to learning to use a bridge, IMO, is way different than taking those easy shots offhanded because they are so easy and something a person was born, being able to do, ie-do things off both sides.

Laura

 

[Bluewolf]

It's quite hard to work out the shot/shots you are talking about Laura.

Try to put the balls in the positions you mean using the Wei Table:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html


btw: Jump shots are very easy with jump cues. It's just accuracy or putting spin on them that is tricky.

This is my attempt at the wei, which as usual I royally fd up. I run out of lines and the curved ones dont work for me. So I tried the curve yellow one and ended up with a yellow line across the table that has nothing to do with the shot.So disregard the strange yellow line coming across the table because it has nothing to do with the shot.

I will try to describe it, and see if it makes since with the mess I made of that wei table.

START(
%Aq6Y6%BZ9B2%C[3A9%DZ8B4%Ep9E2%F[5B2%GB9\0%H[0Z6%I[1\8%JB5\3
%K[1B7%LB8B2%MB3\3%NC2[6%OD1D3%Pp8T9%UG1C8%VC4F8%Wl7D1%XC7N9
%YY9Z6%Zr8H0%[D7O4%\m3[7%]D3G9%^X6[0%`q0X9%ap8U0%cl7D0
)END

Kick the ball in at the pocket where the cb is, curve the cb into the rail, bank it then off of the rail at the opposite short rail, to drive it up to kick in the ball in the other end pocket on the same rail as the first pot,come back down to kick the 8 into the side and to kick the final ball in in the corner cross corner from the initial shot. My idea was that if sufficient velocity could not be obtained to kick all of the balls, then only kick in 3, probably the 8 and not the last corner one.

Also, I alwys thought kicks had to be angle in angle out so that the way I have drawn it from the second kick to the 3rd violates that principle, so the angles I am pretty sure would have to be adjusted to make it work, i just do not know how to do it

So not being experienced, I was just seeing a table in my brain with balls and kicks on it, with no clue whether it could be done in terms of physics or geometry.

Laura

 

[DoomCue]

*SNIP*
From time to time, I've asked some "C" and "D" players why they use a jump cue and their answer is always "everyone else has one, so I don't want to give up an edge." It's tough to argue with that kind of logic, yet I wish I could think of something to say when somebody offers that answer.

*SNIP*

"Learn the game of pool in two dimensions first", I've often said.

That's funny. C & D players have already "given up an edge" because of their lack of playing ability so how much is gained by having a jump cue? There's a simple response to their answer above: "You'll always be a C or D player if you never learn to kick. The jump cue is not an excuse for you not to practice kicking." Kicking is one of the more important skills in the game, and without it, there's no way to reach a high level of play. Better players execute better safeties, which usually eliminate jump shots. Without the ability to kick (and kick confidently), that player is screwed (and he deserves it).

I played baseball for years, and I see a kind of a syndrome in kids who pitch. It's not enough to keep it simple and throw fastballs, they have to learn to throw junk, like the curveball and knuckleball, before they've become proficient with the fastball. Pool players do it, too, by ignoring one of the most important parts of the games (kicking) in favor of the flashy shot which really shouldn't come up all that often (jumping).

I firmly believe jump cues should be banned (not jump SHOTS, just jump CUES). That will never happen, given the popularity of the jump cue and the general laziness of pool players (I can hear, "Why should I learn to jump with my full-size cue when shorty makes it easy?). Of course, there are those who say the jump cue doesn't make jumping easier. I think that is a ridiculous argument; if that were the case, nobody would make them because nobody would buy them.

So, to get back on point, it's good to see Laura is "kicking" it old school!

-djb

 

[sjm]

That's funny. C & D players have already "given up an edge" because of their lack of playing ability so how much is gained by having a jump cue? There's a simple response to their answer above: "You'll always be a C or D player if you never learn to kick. The jump cue is not an excuse for you not to practice kicking." Kicking is one of the more important skills in the game, and without it, there's no way to reach a high level of play. Better players execute better safeties, which usually eliminate jump shots. Without the ability to kick (and kick confidently), that player is screwed (and he deserves it).

I firmly believe jump cues should be banned (not jump SHOTS, just jump CUES). That will never happen, given the popularity of the jump cue and the general laziness of pool players (I can hear, "Why should I learn to jump with my full-size cue when shorty makes it easy?).

So, to get back on point, it's good to see Laura is "kicking" it old school!

-djb

Well said, doomcue, and thanks. I've suggested that until one gains proficiency in kicks and masse shots, one shouldn't even purchase a jump cue, but gave you what I have found to be the typical weak player's rationale for buying one. I think the pool instruction community has to lead the way here, by forbidding, or at least dissuading, their students from jumping until they exhibit proficiency in kicks and masses.

By the way, doomcue, it sounds that we have an equal distaste for jump cues, for I too would like to see them disappear off the face of the planet, though I agree that jumps with a full cue should be permissible. Like you, though, I reckon the jump cues are here to stay.

The problem seems to be that once a weaker player owns a jump stick, they, far too often, find that they will, in many snookered positions, make good hits more often by jumping rather than kicking/masseing, very often where a well-rounded player would choose the kick or masse shot. Thanks to you, now I know what to say to such players, but the fact that they are growing so rapidly in number still bothers me.

Another thing that puzzles me about jumping is that room owners who don't like players hitting down on the cue ball and consequently post "no masse" signs (and enforce it for all but the highly skilled players), could take the same view on jump shots, but don't also post "no jumping" signs. Curious on this point, I once had a freindly chat with a Brooklyn, NY room proprietor whom I'd prefer not to identify. Their memorable comment was "We'd like to limit jump shots as they place a lot of wear and tear on our tables, but in view of how many jump cues we sell here, how could we possibly disallow jumping? If we sold masse cues, we'd probably allow masses, too." I have to admit, that put it in a proper, but eerie, perspective.

Finally, just as you say, our "old school" Laura is doing herself proud.

 

[Colin Colenso]

This is my attempt at the wei, which as usual I royally fd up. I run out of lines and the curved ones dont work for me. So I tried the curve yellow one and ended up with a yellow line across the table that has nothing to do with the shot.So disregard the strange yellow line coming across the table because it has nothing to do with the shot.

I will try to describe it, and see if it makes since with the mess I made of that wei table.

START(
%Aq6Y6%BZ9B2%C[3A9%DZ8B4%Ep9E2%F[5B2%GB9\0%H[0Z6%I[1\8%JB5\3
%K[1B7%LB8B2%MB3\3%NC2[6%OD1D3%Pp8T9%UG1C8%VC4F8%Wl7D1%XC7N9
%YY9Z6%Zr8H0%[D7O4%\m3[7%]D3G9%^X6[0%`q0X9%ap8U0%cl7D0
)END

Kick the ball in at the pocket where the cb is, curve the cb into the rail, bank it then off of the rail at the opposite short rail, to drive it up to kick in the ball in the other end pocket on the same rail as the first pot,come back down to kick the 8 into the side and to kick the final ball in in the corner cross corner from the initial shot. My idea was that if sufficient velocity could not be obtained to kick all of the balls, then only kick in 3, probably the 8 and not the last corner one.

Also, I alwys thought kicks had to be angle in angle out so that the way I have drawn it from the second kick to the 3rd violates that principle, so the angles I am pretty sure would have to be adjusted to make it work, i just do not know how to do it

So not being experienced, I was just seeing a table in my brain with balls and kicks on it, with no clue whether it could be done in terms of physics or geometry.

Laura

Laura,
This is about as close as you could ever come on this shot:
START(
%Aq6Y6%Er1D6%H[1Z7%OD1D3%Pp8T9%UV6[0%VZ6Y7%Wl7D1%XC3R3%Y[9Y3
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)END

The final angle you drew is impossible. The angles widen when a ball runs around the table this way. This is because the rolling topspin curves the ball when it bounces off the rail. Play some follow and draw shots with the cue ball at 45 degrees into the rail and watch the curve. Maybe get someone else to play the shot while you stand in line with the ball. This is important knowledge for kicking.

There would be no advantage to a masse or jump shot to begin. Just a bit of draw and perhaps OE.

In reality, no one would even attempt to make the 8 on this shot for a performance trick shot because it would be luck to hit the 2nd ball at the right angle to make the 8 ball. One in ten shot perhaps, if you get pretty good at making the second corner ball.

Note the path needed to make the second corner ball.

 

[Bluewolf]

Laura,

The final angle you drew is impossible. The angles widen when a ball runs around the table this way. This is because the rolling topspin curves the ball when it bounces off the rail. Play some follow and draw shots with the cue ball at 45 degrees into the rail and watch the curve. Maybe get someone else to play the shot while you stand in line with the ball. This is important knowledge for kicking.

There would be no advantage to a masse or jump shot to begin. Just a bit of draw and perhaps OE.

In reality, no one would even attempt to make the 8 on this shot for a performance trick shot because it would be luck to hit the 2nd ball at the right angle to make the 8 ball. One in ten shot perhaps, if you get pretty good at making the second corner ball.

Note the path needed to make the second corner ball.

Firstly, thanks for the tips in a way to practice kicks. I think kicks are so important and have seen some great players do some real amazing ones.

Secondly, thanks for the wei and explanation.Rossman said to send him the Idea, so since I did not care about getting credit for anything, if you do not mind, I will send him yours.I can tell him you helped. I knew my angles were off and played with them last night and got them better, but realized they were not quite right because I figured they would be affected by a decrease in velocity, perhaps.

I figured all along that whatever I sent, if he wanted to use it, he would have to adapt it into something that would work. FL had said I had to do the shot myself, tape it, but i was not interested in that. All I ever wanted to do was to give the idea to a trick shot artist to see if they could adapt it to something they could use. I guess I never intended for it to be 'my shot', but rather if the idea was doable to give it to a trick shot person and they could do whatever they needed to make it 'their shot'.

Laura

 

[Andy Segal]

Laura,

I am having trouble getting wei tables. Would you be able to save the shot picture as a JPG, or some other common graphic format and email it to me? My email address is andy@webtechosting.com

I would be interested to see this shot since I will be competing in the Trick Shot Magic event next month in Las Vegas. Maybe I would also be able to explain some things about it.

Thanks

Andy Segal

 

[Colin Colenso]

Laura,

I am having trouble getting wei tables. Would you be able to save the shot picture as a JPG, or some other common graphic format and email it to me? My email address is andy@webtechosting.com

I would be interested to see this shot since I will be competing in the Trick Shot Magic event next month in Las Vegas. Maybe I would also be able to explain some things about it.

Thanks

Andy Segal

Andy,
Is the trouble with downloading the page or with using it?

If using it, simply copy the text from here and then click on paste on bottom right of wei table. Then click the 'ok' twice.

If you make a table image, you get the text code by clicking on the 'copy' button. Then you can paste that text here.

btw: The shot I diagramed for Laura is not really a trick shot. Though like any shot, it could be adapted to something that looked cool and had a resonable challenge to it.

 

[Colin Colenso]

For example, this is a possible trick shot based on this shot.
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%Y]8Y1%Zr7J8%[D6[3%\X8Z1%]r6D3%^p1G6%eB0a1%_l8[1%`o0Z0%aq8Y0
%bD3R6%c]7W5%dk5[1
)END

Here, the goal is to pocket 4 balls of 5. It would be hard to judge unless you knew the table well. You need the cue ball to hit within about 1" accuracy on the 8 ball.

This type of shot would be hard to replicate by a trick shot opponent who has had little chance to practice the shot. Easier versions of this type of shot would be more appropriate for 2-attempt competition strategy. ie. Find unusual shots you can make about 60% while opponents make it only 30%.

 

[Bluewolf]

Laura,

I am having trouble getting wei tables. Would you be able to save the shot picture as a JPG, or some other common graphic format and email it to me? My email address is andy@webtechosting.com

I would be interested to see this shot since I will be competing in the Trick Shot Magic event next month in Las Vegas. Maybe I would also be able to explain some things about it.

Thanks

Andy Segal

Andy, as the shot was finally presented by colin, he said it would be very hard to do, ie a low success % and I know you guys only have a few tries on each shot in competition. The one that I originally had the idea about, would have had to have been adapted by the TSA to what would work for them.

It was presented in wei code. You have to put your cursor on the code, and hightllight the code including start and end. Then hit copy, open the link for the wei table(which is in a couple of colins posts) and click on the paste button at the bottom right. It will ask a couple of times if you want to paste it and you have to click ok twice, then you get the table, with the balls and the paths.

I have not yet looked at colin's other shot, but if he says it would probably be better for competition, I would believe him.

Laura