Tuning Stones XXVl - A Player's Experience

rickwen186

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
after countless hours of debate and talking to many close friends on the subject I have decided to write a review, if you will, of my experience having played in my first event in the Bi-Annual Turning Stones Classic Directed by Mr. Mike Zuglan. The following are my own personal thoughts, opinions, and various factoids about my experience.

First let me tell you, this venue is absolutely beautiful and the equipment is world class. The tournament is run very professionally from the way the players dress all the way to player introductions. I really have to take my hat off to Mr. Zuglan as THIS is clearly why his event has remained as successful as it has been for the amount of time it has been successful.

Mr. Zuglan held a very formal players meeting where he went over all the rules and was very blunt in his dislike for, what ill call. "racking issues". He indicated in the players meeting that if their are racking issues, you must call a referee over, but, and he noted with a sly grin, "you don't want us to get involved." Not sure what that meant as it seemed to be a bit of a mixed message.

I proceeded to play a fellow gentleman amateur at 10 PM that evening and the experience was wonderful. I was fortunate enough to win the match and move onto round 2 on the winner side. The gentleman I played was a class act and I believe that most of the players in that event are just like this gentleman...but not all are.

Round 2, I played a professional player who will remain nameless as what i'm about to write is based on opinion and my perception. Let me first say that I lost 9-2, 11 games of 9-ball, and the match took 2 hours and 15 minutes. Those who know pool, know that something is wrong with that time frame and those who know Mr. Zuglan's event can probably guess what was going on. RACKING ISSUES. This professional player continued to require that I rerack the balls to get "certain" balls to touch while offering that certain other balls did not NEED to touch. Well, we have all watched Racking Secrets and we all know what this player was doing. This player was willing to accept gaps that were in this players favor while rejecting gaps that were not in this players favor. That, in my opinion, is not only unethical, its borderline cheating. I believe that you are either striving for a tight rack or you are not. If you are willing to accept gaps, then you must accept all gaps. You should not be allowed to force a rerack simply based on the premise, "either I get a perfectly tight rack, or...I get the gaps that I want". As a result of this, we played 11 games in 2:15 minutes with the referee sitting right beside the table watching me hold my back and rack the balls for 5-7 minutes each rack. I lost, as probably I should have anyway, but I also had no fun playing the game either.

I decided to take my concerns to Mr Zuglan and let me tell you, this was not a pleasant conversation. I approached him from the standpoint of, "IN THE FUTURE, what can I do to ensure that this does not happen again?" He says call a ref. I said OK, then he proceeds to say, Im NOT using a magic rack and Im not going to "rack your own." I said, I see you have heard this complaint before. He proceeded to raise his voice at me, talk down to me, and ultimately turn his back on me and walk away.

I do not actually know why Mr. Zuglan refuses to address an issue that the majority of his players and even viewers dislike. I do not know why he is not more proactive in policing the racking issues he claims to distain. I do not know why when I approached him, he treated me like I was the perpetrator and not the victim. After all, he did say that "you don't want to have to come to us" in the player meeting. I do know that the only power I have to potentially create change is to communicate to anyone who might choose to read this, and to personally choose to NEVER play in or watch a Mike Zuglan event again. At the end of the day, that is the only power us individuals possess to affect change.

Im absolutely positive that his event will continue for another 26 years. He wont miss me, as I wont miss his events either, but I have atleast said my piece and warned those who I could about what takes place at these events when playing some of these pros and what will happen when you approach the tournament director about these issues.

I appreciate everyone's time who chose to read this.
Thank you
 
after countless hours of debate and talking to many close friends on the subject I have decided to write a review, if you will, of my experience having played in my first event in the Bi-Annual Turning Stones Classic Directed by Mr. Mike Zuglan. The following are my own personal thoughts, opinions, and various factoids about my experience.

First let me tell you, this venue is absolutely beautiful and the equipment is world class. The tournament is run very professionally from the way the players dress all the way to player introductions. I really have to take my hat off to Mr. Zuglan as THIS is clearly why his event has remained as successful as it has been for the amount of time it has been successful.

Mr. Zuglan held a very formal players meeting where he went over all the rules and was very blunt in his dislike for, what ill call. "racking issues". He indicated in the players meeting that if their are racking issues, you must call a referee over, but, and he noted with a sly grin, "you don't want us to get involved." Not sure what that meant as it seemed to be a bit of a mixed message.

I proceeded to play a fellow gentleman amateur at 10 PM that evening and the experience was wonderful. I was fortunate enough to win the match and move onto round 2 on the winner side. The gentleman I played was a class act and I believe that most of the players in that event are just like this gentleman...but not all are.

Round 2, I played a professional player who will remain nameless as what i'm about to write is based on opinion and my perception. Let me first say that I lost 9-2, 11 games of 9-ball, and the match took 2 hours and 15 minutes. Those who know pool, know that something is wrong with that time frame and those who know Mr. Zuglan's event can probably guess what was going on. RACKING ISSUES. This professional player continued to require that I rerack the balls to get "certain" balls to touch while offering that certain other balls did not NEED to touch. Well, we have all watched Racking Secrets and we all know what this player was doing. This player was willing to accept gaps that were in this players favor while rejecting gaps that were not in this players favor. That, in my opinion, is not only unethical, its borderline cheating. I believe that you are either striving for a tight rack or you are not. If you are willing to accept gaps, then you must accept all gaps. You should not be allowed to force a rerack simply based on the premise, "either I get a perfectly tight rack, or...I get the gaps that I want". As a result of this, we played 11 games in 2:15 minutes with the referee sitting right beside the table watching me hold my back and rack the balls for 5-7 minutes each rack. I lost, as probably I should have anyway, but I also had no fun playing the game either.

I decided to take my concerns to Mr Zuglan and let me tell you, this was not a pleasant conversation. I approached him from the standpoint of, "IN THE FUTURE, what can I do to ensure that this does not happen again?" He says call a ref. I said OK, then he proceeds to say, Im NOT using a magic rack and Im not going to "rack your own." I said, I see you have heard this complaint before. He proceeded to raise his voice at me, talk down to me, and ultimately turn his back on me and walk away.

I do not actually know why Mr. Zuglan refuses to address an issue that the majority of his players and even viewers dislike. I do not know why he is not more proactive in policing the racking issues he claims to distain. I do not know why when I approached him, he treated me like I was the perpetrator and not the victim. After all, he did say that "you don't want to have to come to us" in the player meeting. I do know that the only power I have to potentially create change is to communicate to anyone who might choose to read this, and to personally choose to NEVER play in or watch a Mike Zuglan event again. At the end of the day, that is the only power us individuals possess to affect change.

Im absolutely positive that his event will continue for another 26 years. He wont miss me, as I wont miss his events either, but I have atleast said my piece and warned those who I could about what takes place at these events when playing some of these pros and what will happen when you approach the tournament director about these issues.

I appreciate everyone's time who chose to read this.
Thank you
Thanks for posting this Rick.
I have never played at Turning Stone but I have heard many positive things over the years.

Always refreshing to get a different perspective from someone who was actually there, first-hand.
 
Zuglan is old school. Probably never checked a rack in his life and the man was a top player.

He wants to remain neutral in the racking wars. Today when Dechaine and Mills couldn't accept each other's rackes, he allowed the ref to rack because they agreed. He also required them both to pay the ref 50 bucks for his time!

You ain't gonna change Mike and his event will always fill....even if it were 6 times a year.
 
from the spectators perspective TS is THE best tournament. excellent venue and u can sit right next to the best players in the world while they play. and its FREE. I am sorry that I haven't been able to get to TS for the last couple of years.

that being said racking issues always mar an otherwise awesome experience. sorry to hear that that it wrecked ur player experience. not making any excuses for the way MZ treated you but I am sure he is sick of hearing about the #@%@! rack.

take care and good luck.
 
Reply

Agreed, people who have lost touch of the mechanics of the game, I guess just don't get it... Having said that, what I was most disappointed about was the disrespect he showed to me. A hard working 60 hour a week pool fanatic who came there to have a good time. Dude dismissed me and turned his back on me. That is my primary gripe. It cost me 400 for the hotel, 200 to get in, food gas and tolls... I believe I deserved a bit of respect. That's all.

Thanks for your comment though
 
from the spectators perspective TS is THE best tournament. excellent venue and u can sit right next to the best players in the world while they play. and its FREE. I am sorry that I haven't been able to get to TS for the last couple of years.

that being said racking issues always mar an otherwise awesome experience. sorry to hear that that it wrecked ur player experience. not making any excuses for the way MZ treated you but I am sure he is sick of hearing about the #@%@! rack.

take care and good luck.

Thanks pocket speed, I appreciate your perspective
 
More experienced players will always test you to see what they can get away with.

You should have gone to the ref early if you felt like you were being pushed around. Your best recourse, if your opponent persisted, was to push to have a neutral racker installed. Since Zuglan is quick to charge $50 per player for this service, perhaps your opponent may have become less "finicky" about the rack in this prospect.

Be aware of your rights going into any situation like this.
 
Racking

I may be wrong - but I don't know where in any rule book it says the balls need to be
all frozen to each other.
I believe it states you are required to provide a tight rack.
I don't play 9 ball - but once i played on a team as a emergency player. You know
Go to the bull pen and get someone.
The guy I was playing didn't like the rack over and over -
so I told him to rack them himself and informed him that there was no such rule as the balls needed to be frozen to each other. - he complained to the guy running the league to no avail he wound up raking for himself.
Hope they can come up with a solution. -- if you love the game and the event maybe you can give it one more shot. We don't have to many top tier events to attend.

McP.
 
I really enjoyed reading about your time at TS. I watched much of the tournament on
Ustream. Thanks AZB and AZBTV. Upstate Al did a fantastic job. My only gripe with
the tournament was the racking shenanigans. It just has to stop. If the players want this game to succeed. Tournament directors need to start disqualifying these habitual
bad sportsmen from the games. Players and those watching also need to call a spade a spade.
 
after countless hours of debate and talking to many close friends on the subject I have decided to write a review, if you will, of my experience having played in my first event in the Bi-Annual Turning Stones Classic Directed by Mr. Mike Zuglan. The following are my own personal thoughts, opinions, and various factoids about my experience.

First let me tell you, this venue is absolutely beautiful and the equipment is world class. The tournament is run very professionally from the way the players dress all the way to player introductions. I really have to take my hat off to Mr. Zuglan as THIS is clearly why his event has remained as successful as it has been for the amount of time it has been successful.

Mr. Zuglan held a very formal players meeting where he went over all the rules and was very blunt in his dislike for, what ill call. "racking issues". He indicated in the players meeting that if their are racking issues, you must call a referee over, but, and he noted with a sly grin, "you don't want us to get involved." Not sure what that meant as it seemed to be a bit of a mixed message.

I proceeded to play a fellow gentleman amateur at 10 PM that evening and the experience was wonderful. I was fortunate enough to win the match and move onto round 2 on the winner side. The gentleman I played was a class act and I believe that most of the players in that event are just like this gentleman...but not all are.

Round 2, I played a professional player who will remain nameless as what i'm about to write is based on opinion and my perception. Let me first say that I lost 9-2, 11 games of 9-ball, and the match took 2 hours and 15 minutes. Those who know pool, know that something is wrong with that time frame and those who know Mr. Zuglan's event can probably guess what was going on. RACKING ISSUES. This professional player continued to require that I rerack the balls to get "certain" balls to touch while offering that certain other balls did not NEED to touch. Well, we have all watched Racking Secrets and we all know what this player was doing. This player was willing to accept gaps that were in this players favor while rejecting gaps that were not in this players favor. That, in my opinion, is not only unethical, its borderline cheating. I believe that you are either striving for a tight rack or you are not. If you are willing to accept gaps, then you must accept all gaps. You should not be allowed to force a rerack simply based on the premise, "either I get a perfectly tight rack, or...I get the gaps that I want". As a result of this, we played 11 games in 2:15 minutes with the referee sitting right beside the table watching me hold my back and rack the balls for 5-7 minutes each rack. I lost, as probably I should have anyway, but I also had no fun playing the game either.

I decided to take my concerns to Mr Zuglan and let me tell you, this was not a pleasant conversation. I approached him from the standpoint of, "IN THE FUTURE, what can I do to ensure that this does not happen again?" He says call a ref. I said OK, then he proceeds to say, Im NOT using a magic rack and Im not going to "rack your own." I said, I see you have heard this complaint before. He proceeded to raise his voice at me, talk down to me, and ultimately turn his back on me and walk away.

I do not actually know why Mr. Zuglan refuses to address an issue that the majority of his players and even viewers dislike. I do not know why he is not more proactive in policing the racking issues he claims to distain. I do not know why when I approached him, he treated me like I was the perpetrator and not the victim. After all, he did say that "you don't want to have to come to us" in the player meeting. I do know that the only power I have to potentially create change is to communicate to anyone who might choose to read this, and to personally choose to NEVER play in or watch a Mike Zuglan event again. At the end of the day, that is the only power us individuals possess to affect change.

Im absolutely positive that his event will continue for another 26 years. He wont miss me, as I wont miss his events either, but I have atleast said my piece and warned those who I could about what takes place at these events when playing some of these pros and what will happen when you approach the tournament director about these issues.

I appreciate everyone's time who chose to read this.
Thank you

It is the same bs every year at this tournament with the racking. Corr's matches were brutal to watch. So you say you played "with the referee sitting right beside the table watching me hold my back and rack the balls for 5-7 minutes each rack". Ok, so what is the rule from Zug who is supposedly all concerned about the racking shenanigans, if after one attempt to re-rack tighter, if the opponent still didn't like it, if you just went and sat down and refused to rack again and be done with the shenanigans?
 
You can't feel so very very strongly in your tournament about both 1. stopping the racking shenanigans and 2. racking for your opponent with a wooden triangle.
 
Smells like Mike Dechaine, yes? Go ahead and say it, we all know...he's brutal.

Sorry to hear of your experience and how you were treated, maybe next time get the refs involved during the game????
 
A different perspective...

Agreed, people who have lost touch of the mechanics of the game, I guess just don't get it... Having said that, what I was most disappointed about was the disrespect he showed to me. A hard working 60 hour a week pool fanatic who came there to have a good time. Dude dismissed me and turned his back on me. That is my primary gripe. It cost me 400 for the hotel, 200 to get in, food gas and tolls... I believe I deserved a bit of respect. That's all.

Thanks for your comment though

Please don't take this the wrong way, I mean no disrespect toward you. I am posting as I had a similar experience.

Allow me to illiterate:
About 2 years ago I entered into a small regional weekly 9-ball tournament. There were usually about 15-20 players in the field ,so it could all be done usually by late evening as it started right after dinnertime.
You were allowed 90 seconds to take a shot which seemed fair to me as everyone I seen take much less time.
There was however; a gentleman that took the full 90 seconds (and some more on several occasions), to take EACH shot. He was at best an average shooter.
After the 1st round in which he won, the tourney was already 45 minutes behind its normal time. Now I face this guy inna match giving him 2 games at 7-5. I got to a quick 2-0 start on him,only letting him to the table twice. This is when he hunkered down ! It didn't matter what the shot was : Straight in , safety, 3 and out, it took 90 seconds to 2 minutes per shot With the match at 4-3,(and my clear frustration), I complained to the TD and had him observe at our table. He watched my opp take 90 seconds on each of his 3 shots and then lit into me !!! I had the same attitude as you and was clearly angry. So much so, that I conceded the match purposely just to get it over with,(I lost 5-5).

I later told this story looking for support in the same room a week later at practice time. I was told politely but sternly that I was in the wrong !!

Howso I demanded...

They explained: You were in a match. It was played within the rules I (or whomever plays this gentleman) had to adapt that particular match to his style of play,(he played within the rules) They also explained further, that if everyone wanted their opp to adapt to their style of play , the tourney would be chaos.
Play within the rules and ADAPT to your opps style of play was the message delivered that day.

I say this because these guys played in a room that Zuglan himself played in over 20 years ago. I was the one that was wrong and needed to adapt. (and I did)

Hope this helped you to understand.
 
Smells like Mike Dechaine, yes? Go ahead and say it, we all know...he's brutal.

Sorry to hear of your experience and how you were treated, maybe next time get the refs involved during the game????

No, Dechaine played veteran Ron Casanzio in Round 2.
 
Dear Sir,
As a player and spectator it is simply boring to watch players argue over the rack. It is a bad look for the game. No where in professional sports can this behavior be seen. Mr. Zuglan is elevating the the game.
Best,
Jon
 
Agreed, people who have lost touch of the mechanics of the game, I guess just don't get it... Having said that, what I was most disappointed about was the disrespect he showed to me. A hard working 60 hour a week pool fanatic who came there to have a good time. Dude dismissed me and turned his back on me. That is my primary gripe. It cost me 400 for the hotel, 200 to get in, food gas and tolls... I believe I deserved a bit of respect. That's all.

Thanks for your comment though

Helike that with everybody....howmany times would he have to explain why his rules are his rules to you? Surely he covered his stance on racking in the player's meeting. Don't be such a female about it.
 
I may be wrong - but I don't know where in any rule book it says the balls need to be
all frozen to each other.
I believe it states you are required to provide a tight rack.
I don't play 9 ball - but once i played on a team as a emergency player. You know
Go to the bull pen and get someone.
The guy I was playing didn't like the rack over and over -
so I told him to rack them himself and informed him that there was no such rule as the balls needed to be frozen to each other. - he complained to the guy running the league to no avail he wound up raking for himself.
Hope they can come up with a solution. -- if you love the game and the event maybe you can give it one more shot. We don't have to many top tier events to attend.

McP.

I appreciate your thoughts...You are right!!!! where in the rules does it say they need to be frozen? Unfortunately, asking your opponent to rack for themselves was not an option as "rack your own" is forbidden under MZ rules. You guys are giving me great ammunition for the next time this happens. Thanks
 
Helike that with everybody....howmany times would he have to explain why his rules are his rules to you? Surely he covered his stance on racking in the player's meeting. Don't be such a female about it.

Clearly you don't have daughters or a mother....to be degrading women to the level you just did.

What he SAID in the meeting was "You dont want to come to me about this". What does that mean?

Anyway, regardless, I appreciate your comments.
 
Dear Sir,
As a player and spectator it is simply boring to watch players argue over the rack. It is a bad look for the game. No where in professional sports can this behavior be seen. Mr. Zuglan is elevating the the game.
Best,
Jon



But wait. He is using rules (rack for your opponent with a wooden rack) that causes exactly that problem.
 
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