Turning down work on "Big Name" cues

C

ChampionsRepair

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What would you do?

I just lost a good repeat customer of mine. The cue in question is from a "Big Name" regional custom cue maker. The customer just received the cue new and wanted me to fit a LD shaft to it because the cue maker refused.

With the customer present, I put the butt on my lathe and immediately noticed more than significant run out on the joint pin. I threw a dial indicator on my crosslide to measure it. Wow, 21/100s at the tip of the joint pin.

I called the customer over to the lathe to witness the run out. He stated somewhat emphatically that there must be something wrong with my lathe as his cue was perfect and straight as an arrow. This is when he informed me of his purchase price of $1750! So to humor him I took my lathe apart cleaned the dovetails and reassembled. He was right the run out now measured 22/100s. I asked to examine the shaft and installed my maintenance arbor on it placing it in between my chuck and cup center. The shaft had a huge wobble and the hole for the pin was not even centered on the face of the shaft.

I politely as I could refused the job and suggested he return the cue to the cue maker. He was not accepting of the suggestion and said he would not ever use me for even tip replacement anymore. Before this I had made 4 shafts, done countless tips and even a refinish for him.

I guess my question is how would you deal with this? And how can a cue maker make something so F'd up roll straight when assembled on a table? Or maybe I'm just venting...
 
ChampionsRepair said:
What would you do?

I just lost a good repeat customer of mine. The cue in question is from a "Big Name" regional custom cue maker. The customer just received the cue new and wanted me to fit a LD shaft to it because the cue maker refused.

With the customer present, I put the butt on my lathe and immediately noticed more than significant run out on the joint pin. I threw a dial indicator on my crosslide to measure it. Wow, 21/100s at the tip of the joint pin.

I called the customer over to the lathe to witness the run out. He stated somewhat emphatically that there must be something wrong with my lathe as his cue was perfect and straight as an arrow. This is when he informed me of his purchase price of $1750! So to humor him I took my lathe apart cleaned the dovetails and reassembled. He was right the run out now measured 22/100s. I asked to examine the shaft and installed my maintenance arbor on it placing it in between my chuck and cup center. The shaft had a huge wobble and the hole for the pin was not even centered on the face of the shaft.

I politely as I could refused the job and suggested he return the cue to the cue maker. He was not accepting of the suggestion and said he would not ever use me for even tip replacement anymore. Before this I had made 4 shafts, done countless tips and even a refinish for him.

I guess my question is how would you deal with this? And how can a cue maker make something so F'd up roll straight when assembled on a table? Or maybe I'm just venting...
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The screw can be way off and still have the OD of the cue be concentric.
 
macguy said:
The screw can be way off and still have the OD of the cue be concentric.
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Obviously. But what do they do? Drill and tap the shaft first. Put the joint pin in the shaft. Bore a monstrously oversized hole in the but and use the shaft to insert the pin crooked into the but using excessive epoxy to fill the void?
 
Next time you see him just smile and act like the last meeting never happened. After afew more people tell him how missed up his new cue is, he will be looking for a way to get back on your good side. If the big name cue is ever spoken of again, let him be the one to bring it up!

Larry
 
Hes just POed that he paid that much for a cue that obviously is messed up and is blaming you for it. He will find out you are right after he takes the cue to another repairman.

Larry's answer is the best solution and really, do you need to deal with customers like him in the future. Just politely decline any further work from him.
 
I would have addressed the problem in much the same way. I would have put a ground dowel pin in my chuck and let the customer see my machine had little if any run out. I would not have fixed that problem on a "big name" cue that had a pin issue and the cue was new ?

Actually if I had purchased a cue for that much money and the pin had 22/1000 run out I would have been irate to say the least. If it is a big name cue it should be taken to that cue maker for a major repair in ordor to maintain value.
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
Hes just POed that he paid that much for a cue that obviously is messed up and is blaming you for it. He will find out you are right after he takes the cue to another repairman.

Larry's answer is the best solution and really, do you need to deal with customers like him in the future. Just politely decline any further work from him.
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Probably right. But it hurts as the population in my county is less than the population of the city the cue maker is from.

Russell Cues said:
I would not have fixed that problem on a "big name" cue that had a pin issue and the cue was new ?

Actually if I had purchased a cue for that much money and the pin had 22/1000 run out I would have been irate to say the least. If it is a big name cue it should be taken to that cue maker for a major repair in ordor to maintain value.
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He received the cue on Friday new and brought it to me on Saturday after a 9 month wait for delivery. The cue in my opinion has no value. I am trying to decide now whether to contact the maker. I know him and this isn't the first cue of his to hit my shop that I have felt was sub par.
 
I had a similar situation recently. A good friend of mine/pool mentor brought me a shaft that had been built for him by another cue maker. The shaft had been threaded crooked. I put it in my lathe, trued the shaft up, put a blank pin in the shaft and showed him the runout - many thousands off. I suggested that he take it back to the maker.

I asked on here what I should do - got mostly suggestions to run - not walk - away as fast as possible. He asked if I could fix it and I did.

He is now using that cue and shaft as his playing cue. He's a ranked and respected player in this area.

I'm sorry your customer reacted the way he did, but, as others have suggested, he will come to realize that you were right and all will be forgiven. Time heals all wounds. My point in posting is that each situation is different and YOU have to decide what is the right thing to do in your own mind.

My 2 cents,

Gary
 
GEBrown said:
I'm sorry your customer reacted the way he did, but, as others have suggested, he will come to realize that you were right and all will be forgiven. Time heals all wounds. My point in posting is that each situation is different and YOU have to decide what is the right thing to do in your own mind.

My 2 cents,

Gary
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Thanks. I am just really pissed about it. Most importantly someone is successfully selling kindling for more than a grand. Although I am not a cue maker and have never claimed to be one, I have made cues. I have only sold 4 of the 12 cues that I've made. I play with one of my cues and the other 7 were either cut up to keep the world from knowing they ever existed or sit on my wall to remind me of what I did wrong. Why would anyone let something like that leave their shop, let alone someone that is well known.
 
If you're going to pursue cue repair and expect to get good at it, you're going to be turning a lot of work away because the pin is not dead-nuts concentric to the cue. Do you think that every cue I build a shaft for has the pin in the center? I'm tickled pink when they are but half of them aren't.
You figure a way to deal with the problem at hand and get the job done.
I'm not going to tell you how to do it, that would be cheating and denying you the pride in finding the solution for yourself. The trick is very simple though.

The client you just alienated, have him send the cue to me and he'll have it back with his new L/D shaft in a week. You never turn down work unless you're too busy. You might as well say: No thanx, I've got enough money.

No more spoon-feeding. If you're going to learn you're going to learn by doing. If you don't have the time, patience or creativity then you're in the wrong game. The world has enough tip installers.
Somebody had to say it.
 
There are always times when cue repairs and cue making can and will be rewarding and also very unrewarding. You take the good times with the bad. It's that simple.

Sometimes the sanding mandrels can be off depending on where they are made, which can also make the center of the pin off even if it's put in straight. Finishing cues it self can alter certain things depending on how they are done, Not everyone follows the same steps. You choose to work on certain cues and you advise against working on certain cues.
 
If you want to build shafts as part of your repair business, then you will have to deal with off center pins. You can turn the shaft to size, show the customer how straight it rolls and inform him that it may wobble slightly because of the insert being off center after you match it to the butt. Or you can go to the trouble of making a joint protector that matches his shaft perfectly. Then center drill the end of it. Put the insert in a shaft blank that is about 16mm at the tip and put the joint protector on the shaft blank and finish turning it using the center in the end of the joint protector to drive it. When finished and faced properly the shaft will roll true on the cue.
Maybe go back to the customer and tell him you have been thinking about it and have figured out a couple of options for building him a shaft. Let him know the difference in the cost of the two methods and see if you can get back his business.
 
Call or email the maker???

How about call or email the original maker and give him the first opportunity to fix his cue? If you put your self in his shoes and would like to have that same opportunity to fix your problem? Unless the original maker don't want to fix his problem. I am just thinking out loud and just my 2 cents...
 
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I have no idea who the customer or the cue maker is, but I don't blame the them for not bringing you any more work. I doubt you expressed your feelings about the cue, while he was standing in front of you, as eloquently as you did here.

How would you feel if you brought the cue in that you just received only to have somebody who doesn't even build cues tell you it's a piece of junk?

Coming on here and bashing another cue maker makes it seem like you are jealous of him in my opinion. If he's truly a "big name" cue maker, as you put it, I doubt he got there by accident. If you're so much better than he is, then why aren't you making cues?

Not every cue is going to be perfect. An off center pin doesn't make the entire cue a piece of kindling.

When I first started building cues, I used to look at cues by some cue makers and wonder why they are getting the money they are getting. I thought to myself that my cues were just as good as theirs. Now I look at the same cue makers cues and understand why they're getting the money they are. Their cues were better then mine back then and they still are today. They deserve the money they are getting. They've worked hard to get to where they are.
 
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KJ Cues said:
If you're going to pursue cue repair and expect to get good at it, you're going to be turning a lot of work away because the pin is not dead-nuts concentric to the cue. Do you think that every cue I build a shaft for has the pin in the center? I'm tickled pink when they are but half of them aren't.
You figure a way to deal with the problem at hand and get the job done.
I'm not going to tell you how to do it, that would be cheating and denying you the pride in finding the solution for yourself. The trick is very simple though.

The client you just alienated, have him send the cue to me and he'll have it back with his new L/D shaft in a week. You never turn down work unless you're too busy. You might as well say: No thanx, I've got enough money.

No more spoon-feeding. If you're going to learn you're going to learn by doing. If you don't have the time, patience or creativity then you're in the wrong game. The world has enough tip installers.
Somebody had to say it.
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The reason I put the butt on my lathe is I have done shafts for cues where the pin was off center or had some run out and I charge more accordingly. But there is a big difference between some and what I was looking at here. What I did in the past was use a combination of feeler gauges next to the dovetail on the bed of my lathe to offset the headstock and or steady rest on my lathe. Lock the spindle in place and drill with a portable drill chucked on the tailstock instead of boring the whole.

I did let the customer know it was possible. But as the cue was new and because of the severity of the problem he should go back to the cue maker.

Tony Zinzola said:
I have no idea who the customer or the cue maker is, but I don't blame the them for not bringing you any more work. I doubt you expressed your feelings about the cue, while he was standing in front of you, as eloquently as you did here.

How would you feel if you brought the cue in that you just received only to have somebody who doesn't even build cues tell you it's a piece of junk?

Coming on here and bashing another cue maker makes it seem like you are jealous of him in my opinion. If he's truly a "big name" cue maker, as you put it, I doubt he got there by accident. If you're so much better than he is, then why aren't you making cues?

Not every cue is going to be perfect. An off center pin doesn't make the entire cue a piece of kindling.

When I first started building cues, I used to look at cues by some cue makers and wonder why they are getting the money they are getting. I thought to myself that my cues were just as good as theirs. Now I look at the same cue makers cues and understand why they're getting the money they are. Their cues were better then mine back then and they still are today. They deserve the money they are getting. They've worked hard to get to where they are.
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As my day job is in customer service and I have been doing it for several decades, I was fairly eloquent. The real issue to me is why can I do better? But you are right I am not a cue maker what do I know. I did not give the cue makers name nor my location and will not. Maybe the question is would you let a cue like the one I described leave your shop except for in a garbage can?
 
Another question I just thought of. Is the cue flat faced or is it a piloted joint?
If it is a piloted joint the pin being out may cause zero problem, because the alignment would be off of the pilot bore and not the pin. At any rate the method I shared earlier will get you a straight shaft if it is flat faced.
I knew a cuemaker, who is now deceased, that put a lot of his inserts in slightly crooked on the internal threads. But he did the pilot so precise in all his butts that you could still switch any shaft over to any butt and they would all line up concentric.
 
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ChampionsRepair said:
As my day job is in customer service and I have been doing it for several decades, I was fairly eloquent. The real issue to me is why can I do better? But you are right I am not a cue maker what do I know. I did not give the cue makers name nor my location and will not. Maybe the question is would you let a cue like the one I described leave your shop except for in a garbage can?
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You make it sound like the entire cue is a piece of crap when all it has is a pin that is a little off center. It's not a complicated fix.

I do agree that the cue should go back to the maker, especially since it was just sent out that way.

As for whether I would let a cue like that leave my shop, in an ideal world, the answer would be no. Have I ever let cues out of my shop that had issues? Of course I have. Probably every cue maker out there has a few that they hope never come back to haunt them. Perhaps the cue maker didn't even know that his pin was off center. Maybe the pin was centered when he installed it, but his mandrels are off, so the issue occurred when he sanded the cue down.

As for not giving the name or your location, I do have issues with that. You want to remain anonymous so that you can come on here and badmouth other people in the same line of work as yourself, but they put their name and reputation on the line with everything they send out.

I was asked on the phone last night if that was one of my cues because I sold a cue last week for the exact price you mentioned. I said it can't be. I'm not a "big name" and that cue is still sitting here because we're changing a few things on it. My pins are also straight. At least I think they are. If they aren't and it's my cue, I wouldn't know because instead of picking up the phone or emailing me, you decided a public lynching was more appropriate.
 
I guess everyone has to choose which jobs they will accept. This is a new cue. If you take the job and the customer isn't happy, you're the bad guy and you've lost more than just one steady tip customer. If the builder agrees to "look" at the new shaft you built, I promise you, he's not gonna admit that his $1750 work has a messed up pin. He's gonna blame the bad pin on something that you've done, and then your customer is gonna come after you to pay the repair and buy a new LD shaft. We've all had to make adjustments to repair other peoples shoddy work after we start a repair. If I see a problem before I start, I have no problem with turning down the work. Even if it means losing a steady tip customer. Refer your customer to someone else. Let them deal with that headache.
 
I'd tell the guy to get a sex change operation , then take some PMS medication . When it's staring you in the face and you act a fool , well you really must be one . He probably doesn't make any noise when he farts either:angry::sorry:...
 
If you were polite, and explained the situation like you say, there's no pleasing the guy. He's probably pissed that you exposed his cuemaker for shoddy work, and he bought it.
Chances are, he'll be back when he cools off.

I wonder how many cuemakers would refuse to fit a LD shaft to a customer's cue? Doesn't make any sense to me....
 
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