Two new kicking systems

Z

Zafer

New member
Here are two new systems I created for no-english rolling one-rail kicks. If you keep missing kick shots using simpler visual approaches, give these a try.

The Sid system is useful when shooting from the rail opposite the kicking rail, but does not extend to shooting from the adjacent rail (even though sometimes shown as such, the geometry breaks down). I will describe a new system to cover that case first, and generalize it to anywhere on the table. I will then introduce a different system specifically for shallow kicks (no longer equal-angle) at the long rail, to get from one end rail to the other.

Long-to-Short-Long​


Zafer L2SL kick system.png


We are shooting from a long rail R0, kicking at the short rail R1, to arrive at the other long rail R2. Look up the numbers on the long rails, and subtract to get the aim point R1=R0-R2.
  • Note how R1 aim numbers are through the diamonds, whereas R0 and R1 are on the rail groove across from the diamonds (on the rail edge to be precise, but the rail groove where balls sit is easier to judge and close enough).
  • Use even spacing between adjacent numbers given. For example, on R1, +15 is exactly halfway to +30.
  • The symmetry is assuming typical rails where through-diamonds aiming for equal-angle kicks works well enough. On snappier rails, aim longer accordingly, either closer to the rail nose or longer on the diamonds line.
    • Diamond Red Label tables at my local pool hall need a fixed +5 adjustment to aim.

General One-Rail​

Now, we can generalize this and use it anywhere, without relying on either ball being near a side rail. The R0 and R2 numbers will then be the cue ball (CB) and object ball (OB) numbers by distance from the kicking rail. And R1's -80...+80 range is then relative to the segment between their projected positions on the kicking rail, though I personally find it easier to work on the segment connecting the two balls on the table.

Zafer one rail kick system.png


Locate the midpoint "0" between the CB/OB on the table, then pick the midpoint "30" between that and the ball closer to the kick rail, and find the ball difference number on the 0-30 or 30-80 segment. Project that point perpendicular to the kick rail to get the aim point.
  • I know, back to visual judgments, and errors do creep in here for me, but so far it still works better and faster than eyeballing angles or diagonals.
We can use the same system to kick into the long rail as well, using the same ball numbers at half-diamond distances along the short rail now.
  • If aiming through-diamonds as on a normal table, the first half-diamond is 25 instead of 20, due to kick rail diamonds now being relatively farther.
This system is based on the equal-angle assumption (relative to wherever is best for the table), and it works well as long as that holds, which is until you get to shallower angles where rebounds flatten out.
  • The rest of the system is just trying to sidestep mental multiplication and division using logarithms. The mathematically inclined might spot the affine log scale and the piecewise-linear approximation to the logistic sigmoid, which I computationally optimized for numbers round and memorable while good enough to make contact on a 9-foot table.

Short-to-Long-Short​

Here is another system, for shallow angles specifically.

Zafer end rail kick system.png


Similar, but no longer symmetric between the CB and the OB.
  • Note that R0 and R1 numbers are through-diamond, and R2 numbers are on the rail groove across from the diamonds.
  • The numbers in parentheses on R0 are slightly more accurate values that may be worth remembering when kicking near the pocket (75-80) where small differences matter the most.
  • When the side pocket would interfere, use english to go longer, or speed/draw to shorten.
This system was fitted directly to interpolate rebound data I recorded on local tables, with no equal-angle or other fixed model assumption. As such, it works unreasonably well for me (much more accurately than this easy alternative). I find it especially useful for banking an OB into a pinpoint safety at the other end.

I'd love to hear your feedback.

Zafer
 
Zafer said:
It's literally one subtraction, but no worries, I do appreciate your feedback.
Click to expand...
That's entirely possible. Just speaking for myself when i see a sea of text trying describe it i skip it. Not just you, anybody. If its that simple make a short video.
 
garczar said:
Other than being insanely complicated its great. If it takes that many words to describe it i see no use for it.
Click to expand...
I agree…..way too complicated and not much need to use it when the Diamond System is simple to use.
And the Diamond system does work and it is rare that I incur a BIH foul by missing any kick shot on the OB.

Unsurprisingly, I pocket a much higher % of kick shots than most players I know and like I wrote, seldom foul
I attribute this to learning and practicing kick shots in practice using the Diamond System. It’s easy to learn.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The correct numbers cannot all be even fives. How much error have you built into the numbering?
Click to expand...
Good question- surprisingly not all that much. I can dig up the full numbers, but basically I had two variables in a*log+b to shift them until they were close enough to multiples of 5 and ending at 80. Because of the subtraction, b cancels out and doesn't matter, and a only scales the (arbitrary) aim rail.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The correct numbers cannot all be even fives. How much error have you built into the numbering?
Click to expand...
Here's how little, the end-rail system's numbers in integers:
R0=0, 9, 21, 29, 35 (as included in parentheses)
R2=30, 50, 60, 66, 71, 75, 77.5, 80

The L2SL/one-rail numbers:
R0, R2=23, 41, 52, 60, 66, 72, 76, 80
The final set in 5s was fuzzed for all pairwise combinations, not simply rounded, so 23->20 had lower error than 23->25, and deviations were well within a ball diameter under the equal-angle-through-diamonds model.
 
Zafer said:
This system is based on the equal-angle assumption (relative to wherever is best for the table), and it works well as long as that holds, which is until you get to shallower angles where rebounds flatten out.
Click to expand...
The basic mirror system (using your cue to measure the exact mirror point) is, in my opinion, the simplest and most accurate at achieving this goal for 1-rail kicks, and any number/math-based systems that also just give you the mirror point seem like a waste with no extra benefits.

The only scenario where I'd see a number/math-based system that doesn't require measuring with the cue be better is under shot clock pressure, if you don't have time to walk around the table, measure the point and come back. In such cases I'd personally just do my best to eyeball/visualize the mirror point from standing behind the shot line by "doubling the distance" from the target->rail point outwards, and still not use any extra system, but I can definitely see the benefit if one learns them well enough.
 
Last edited:
Oikawa said:
The basic mirror system (using your cue to measure the exact mirror point) is, in my opinion, the simplest and most accurate at achieving this goal for 1-rail kicks, and any number/math-based systems that also just give you the mirror point without giving any extra benefit seem like a waste with no benefits.
Click to expand...
Thank you, that's certainly going to be true for most people. I just make too many mistakes using visual judgment, and this works better for me, for now. It's an addition to the several other tools to get the mirror point.

The End-Rail one, though, is not the mirror system, and therefore probably more generally useful. There is just no way I myself could aim those this accurately without the system.
 
with the cue ball at 10(9)...ro
and wanting to hit 75...r2
aiming at 65
or 66
i miss the 75 by half a diamond just like tor's video predicts not your system
i have a gold crown 1
 
bbb said:
with the cue ball at 10(9)...ro
and wanting to hit 75...r2
aiming at 65
or 66
i miss the 75 by half a diamond just like tor's video predicts not your system
i have a gold crown 1
Click to expand...
Thank you!! I fitted those numbers on the Diamond tables at the local club. I really appreciate the data point!
 
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Reactions: bbb
Zafer said:
Thank you, that's certainly going to be true for most people. I just make too many mistakes using visual judgment, and this works better for me, for now. It's an addition to the several other tools to get the mirror point.
Click to expand...

Perhaps we mean different things by the mirror system, but the way I do it requires no visual judgement/guesswork/intuition, just simple steps to measure and memorize a point on the rail.

I'll clarify how I do it, perhaps there's some key difference that might help you:

1722468281661.png


1. Stand behind the target point (black cross next to the one-ball in the image), and place your cue on the table such that the tip touches the target point. Make sure your cue is angled in a straight line towards the rail, and then put your fingers on the cue on the rail-hit point (black cross next to the rail in the image) to form the red line in the image.

2. Keeping the fingers on the cue, move the cue backwards such that your tip now touches the rail-hit point (Forming the orange line in the image). This effectively doubles the distance, and your fingers touching the cue are now placed exactly at the mirror aiming point (Red cross in the image).

3. Keep your mirror aiming point carefully by not moving your fingers, and then move the cue such that it points from your fingers to the cue ball (blue line in the image).

4. Keeping your cue on this line, locate the point your cue overlaps the rail on the diamond-line. To memorize this point, I personally subdivide the diamond markings in my head (for example into 1/10ths) and then memorize it as a decimal number, e.g. in this image it would be 7/10 between the diamonds (0 being the left diamond, 1 being the right diamond). To not forget which diamonds we are talking about, I would memorize the point in this case by memorizing "1.3 from the end rail", meaning 1 full diamond then 0.3 diamonds.

Zafer said:
The End-Rail one, though, is not the mirror system, and therefore probably more generally useful. There is just no way I myself could aim those this accurately without the system.
Click to expand...
I agree that if you gain value past just locating the mirror point, various systems can indeed be useful in some scenarios.
 
Bavafongoul said:
I agree…..way too complicated and not much need to use it when the Diamond System is simple to use.
And the Diamond system does work and it is rare that I incur a BIH foul by missing any kick shot on the OB.

Unsurprisingly, I pocket a much higher % of kick shots than most players I know and like I wrote, seldom foul
I attribute this to learning and practicing kick shots in practice using the Diamond System. It’s easy to learn.
Click to expand...
The Corner-5 system is great for 2-4 rails with english, I know, I come from 3-cushion. But man, if you think these one-rail kicks are "way too complicated" and Corner-5 is easy to learn, with its track shifts or even 2nd rail contacts, I really don't know what to tell you. I was fully expecting the "lol this is stupid just play" replies, but that's... new. Thanks for the perspective.
 
garczar said:
Other than being insanely complicated its great. If it takes that many words to describe it i see no use for it.
Click to expand...
I gotta agree. Most newbies and league guys I know have forgotten most of the math from high school and this would slow down play like another ice age if they had to figure all that shit out b4 kicking.
That's not to say it isn't workable or even an excellent system, but Simplicity is the key word for most players.
Kiss.
And nothing beats hamb for sizing up a new table. Roll a few around b4 choosing which kicking system applies best for that table. Nothing beats experience when playing on minimally serviced bar boxes w dead spots and questionable cloth.
 
Zafer said:
Here are two new systems I created for no-english rolling one-rail kicks. If you keep missing kick shots using simpler visual approaches, give these a try.

The Sid system is useful when shooting from the rail opposite the kicking rail, but does not extend to shooting from the adjacent rail (even though sometimes shown as such, the geometry breaks down). I will describe a new system to cover that case first, and generalize it to anywhere on the table. I will then introduce a different system specifically for shallow kicks (no longer equal-angle) at the long rail, to get from one end rail to the other.

Long-to-Short-Long​


View attachment 770434

We are shooting from a long rail R0, kicking at the short rail R1, to arrive at the other long rail R2. Look up the numbers on the long rails, and subtract to get the aim point R1=R0-R2.
  • Note how R1 aim numbers are through the diamonds, whereas R0 and R1 are on the rail groove across from the diamonds (on the rail edge to be precise, but the rail groove where balls sit is easier to judge and close enough).
  • Use even spacing between adjacent numbers given. For example, on R1, +15 is exactly halfway to +30.
  • The symmetry is assuming typical rails where through-diamonds aiming for equal-angle kicks works well enough. On snappier rails, aim longer accordingly, either closer to the rail nose or longer on the diamonds line.
    • Diamond Red Label tables at my local pool hall need a fixed +5 adjustment to aim.

General One-Rail​

Now, we can generalize this and use it anywhere, without relying on either ball being near a side rail. The R0 and R2 numbers will then be the cue ball (CB) and object ball (OB) numbers by distance from the kicking rail. And R1's -80...+80 range is then relative to the segment between their projected positions on the kicking rail, though I personally find it easier to work on the segment connecting the two balls on the table.

View attachment 770435

Locate the midpoint "0" between the CB/OB on the table, then pick the midpoint "30" between that and the ball closer to the kick rail, and find the ball difference number on the 0-30 or 30-80 segment. Project that point perpendicular to the kick rail to get the aim point.
  • I know, back to visual judgments, and errors do creep in here for me, but so far it still works better and faster than eyeballing angles or diagonals.
We can use the same system to kick into the long rail as well, using the same ball numbers at half-diamond distances along the short rail now.
  • If aiming through-diamonds as on a normal table, the first half-diamond is 25 instead of 20, due to kick rail diamonds now being relatively farther.
This system is based on the equal-angle assumption (relative to wherever is best for the table), and it works well as long as that holds, which is until you get to shallower angles where rebounds flatten out.
  • The rest of the system is just trying to sidestep mental multiplication and division using logarithms. The mathematically inclined might spot the affine log scale and the piecewise-linear approximation to the logistic sigmoid, which I computationally optimized for numbers round and memorable while good enough to make contact on a 9-foot table.

Short-to-Long-Short​

Here is another system, for shallow angles specifically.

View attachment 770436

Similar, but no longer symmetric between the CB and the OB.
  • Note that R0 and R1 numbers are through-diamond, and R2 numbers are on the rail groove across from the diamonds.
  • The numbers in parentheses on R0 are slightly more accurate values that may be worth remembering when kicking near the pocket (75-80) where small differences matter the most.
  • When the side pocket would interfere, use english to go longer, or speed/draw to shorten.
This system was fitted directly to interpolate rebound data I recorded on local tables, with no equal-angle or other fixed model assumption. As such, it works unreasonably well for me (much more accurately than this easy alternative). I find it especially useful for banking an OB into a pinpoint safety at the other end.

I'd love to hear your feedback.

Zafer
Click to expand...
The intelligence of pool players never ceases to amaze me. I love this game for that very reason... The people that play at upper levels are usually very smart folks. Lol. B4 taking issue, there are exceptions to any rule. Lol.
 
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