U.S. Open payouts

[Nostroke]

It all depends on how the prize money payout is recorded for Uncle Sam's purposes. I have made some fairly large savers in poker tournies and they do the 1099 form on the amount you actually win, not the listed winnings. All players are treated the same. You pay taxes on your actual winnings.

So in other words, the TD would deduct the saver from the winners check and give it to the savee? To me that is asking for trouble.

If i was a TD, i wouldnt do it. Next thing you know somene comes back 6 months later and says "I didnt get the right amount"

 

[JAM]

So in other words, the TD would deduct the saver from the winners check and give it to the savee? To me that is asking for trouble.

If i was a TD, i wouldnt do it. Next thing you know somene comes back 6 months later and says "I didnt get the right amount"

No, they don't do that, Nostroke. The savers in pool tournaments are done behind closed curtains.

I know of one international player who won $45,000 in an American pool event, and by the time the taxes were taken out and his backer was paid his end, he pocketed $12,000.

That is why the payouts in pool, in particular, are deceiving at first glance.

 

[Nostroke]

No, they don't do that, Nostroke. The savers in pool tournaments are done behind closed curtains.

I know of one international player who won $45,000 in an American pool event, and by the time the taxes were taken out and his backer was paid his end, he pocketed $12,000.

That is why the payouts in pool, in particular, are deceiving at first glance.

Hi Jam

Whatever taxes are taken out are irrelevant to the actual amount of taxes due at the end of the year. They have no idea if the player is gonna be in the zero or 40% tax bracket by year end.

So im just saying that a player who does a saver without considering his final tax bracket can get screwed.

 

[JAM]

Hi Jam

Whatever taxes are taken out are irrelevant to the actual amount of taxes due at the end of the year. They have no idea if the player is gonna be in the zero or 40% tax bracket by year end.

So im just saying that a player who does a saver without considering his final tax bracket can get screwed.

I thought the same thing when Keith got paid his IPT winnings in Reno, selling out for a percentage to get paid immediately. Everybody else had to wait a while but not Keith. LOL

Keith still got a 1099 and had to pay taxes on the full amount, even though he didn't get the full amount. :wink:

 

[Nostroke]

I thought the same thing when Keith got paid his IPT winnings in Reno, selling out for a percentage to get paid immediately. Everybody else had to wait a while but not Keith. LOL

Keith still got a 1099 and had to pay taxes on the full amount, even though he didn't get the full amount. :wink:

That's what im talking about.

 

[Nostroke]

i dont know how long mika has been over her but if he isnt a US citizen is he gonna have to pay income taxes?

Yes no one skates from Income taxes. If you make it here, you are going to have to pay or take your chances which aren't that good.

For the longest time in this country there was almost a prevailing thought that old people didnt have to pay income taxes. That was BS too.

He is not a US Citizen either. Im not sure if he is even trying. First thing he should do is change his name to Mike.

 

[JAM]

Most American tournament promoters of HIGH-PROFILE tournaments do, in fact, take out one-third of ALL WINNINGS if the winner is an international player. In fact, it would not surprise me one bit if some of the American tournament promoters -- not all -- hope that an international player will win. Some first-place winnings are not immediately paid at the time of winning, and an agreement is entered into between the tournament promoter and the winner. They do eventually get paid, but sometimes it is not right after the event.

Unless the tax papers are in order, some tournament promoters will not pay one penny until papers are filled out.

When Efren won the $100,000 at the IPT King of the Hill tournament in Orlando Florida in December of 2005, I distinctly overheard a staff member state that one-third will be taken out of the first-place winnings.

Also, I helped Bustie and a few other Filipino players fill out their tax forms that all of the international pool players had to fill out before any money was disbursed by the tournament promoters.

 

[jay helfert]

So in other words, the TD would deduct the saver from the winners check and give it to the savee? To me that is asking for trouble.

If i was a TD, i wouldnt do it. Next thing you know somene comes back 6 months later and says "I didnt get the right amount"

Nothing is deducted from anything. The checks are written according to whatever deal is made. It's all kosher, and Uncle Sam gets his too.

 

[jay helfert]

Most American tournament promoters of HIGH-PROFILE tournaments do, in fact, take out one-third of ALL WINNINGS if the winner is an international player. In fact, it would not surprise me one bit if some of the American tournament promoters -- not all -- hope that an international player will win. Some first-place winnings are not immediately paid at the time of winning, and an agreement is entered into between the tournament promoter and the winner. They do eventually get paid, but sometimes it is not right after the event.

Unless the tax papers are in order, some tournament promoters will not pay one penny until papers are filled out.

When Efren won the $100,000 at the IPT King of the Hill tournament in Orlando Florida in December of 2005, I distinctly overheard a staff member state that one-third will be taken out of the first-place winnings.

Also, I helped Bustie and a few other Filipino players fill out their tax forms that all of the international pool players had to fill out before any money was disbursed by the tournament promoters.

It's actually 30%. I've had to deduct it from many players winnings. It comes into play once your winnings exceed $600. Less than that and there is no paperwork.

ANY foreign player can apply for and get a Federal Tax ID number. Functions the same as a Social Security number. There is a form you fill out to apply for it, available online at irs.gov. Why so many foreign players don't do this I have no idea. I helped many Canadians get their Tax ID numbers.

 

[JAM]

It's actually 30%. I've had to deduct it from many players winnings. It comes into play once your winnings exceed $600. Less than that and there is no paperwork.

ANY foreign player can apply for and get a Federal Tax ID number. Functions the same as a Social Security number. There is a form you fill out to apply for it, available online at irs.gov. Why so many foreign players don't do this I have no idea. I helped many Canadians get their Tax ID numbers.

Yep, yep, and yep! :smile:

I've helped quite a few just get their cash in the past. Sometimes it's difficult for them to get paid if they don't produce the paperwork, and that's brutal when they're stuck and want to get paid.

That would be a good thing for the WPA to help with, getting the message out about that.

 

[cuesmith]

I feel pretty confident that Ralf Souquet and Mike Immonen did not agree on a saver. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

In this case Roy, You're wrong. They had a 5K saver and there's not a damn thing wrong with that! A lot of the "squares" think savers are tantamount to dumping! That's rediculous! All players know about the economics of "savers" and I don't know of any who feel it's wrong! It's just the "squares" who have no clue, who knock players for making "savers"! If they were trying to make a living playing pool, I assure you, they wouldn't be so self righteous!

just more hot air!


Sherm

 

[Nostroke]

Nothing is deducted from anything. The checks are written according to whatever deal is made. It's all kosher, and Uncle Sam gets his too.

We are not communicating well or I'm extra dense today. If nothing is deducted from the winner's check, how does the 2nd place guy get his saver money?

 

[JAM]

We are not communicating well or I'm extra dense today. If nothing is deducted from the winner's check, how does the 2nd place guy get his saver money?

The savers are made BETWEEN the players themselves. The tournament promoter has nothing to do with it. He pays the one player what he is supposed to pay that player. In fact, most times the savers are made without the knowledge of the tournament promoter.

As soon as the winning player gets his payout monies from the tournament promoter, then he is supposed to pay the saver to the player that he promised it to. Some players are good about this, and others, well, they are not.

Usually, the savers are made between players who are friends, and so there is no problem. :smile:

 

[jay helfert]

We are not communicating well or I'm extra dense today. If nothing is deducted from the winner's check, how does the 2nd place guy get his saver money?

Let's say first place pays 40,000 and second place pays 15,000. If they make a 5,000 saver, then first will get 35,000 and second 20,000. Kapeche? If they are being paid by check, the checks will be written for 35,000 and 20,000 and those are the numbers reported to the IRS. This isn't rocket science here.
In the event of all cash payouts, it is possible that no reports are being made to any government entity. I'm not saying that is the case, but it could be.

 

[Nostroke]

Let's say first place pays 40,000 and second place pays 15,000. If they make a 5,000 saver, then first will get 35,000 and second 20,000. Kapeche? If they are being paid by check, the checks will be written for 35,000 and 20,000 and those are the numbers reported to the IRS. This isn't rocket science here.
In the event of all cash payouts, it is possible that no reports are being made to any government entity. I'm not saying that is the case, but it could be.

The only thing im questioning is that you said there were NO DEDUCTIONS from anywhere. There is a $5000 deduction from the winners check which is credited to the 2nd place finisher. I guess you dont call that a deduction but some people would.

 

[JAM]

The only thing im questioning is that you said there were NO DEDUCTIONS from anywhere. There is a $5000 deduction from the winners check which is credited to the 2nd place finisher. I guess you dont call that a deduction but some people would.

Nostroke, I respect Jay's contributions to this thread, and what he described in the post right before yours does happen.

That said, the MAJORITY of savers are done BETWEEN THE PLAYERS.

There is no tournament director, tournament promoter, or any tournament staff involved.

Here is a HYPOTHETICAL to explain it a wee bit better, I hope.

Two great friends are getting ready to play against each other EARLY in the tournament. Let's say they are Keith McCready and Buddy Hall. Both of them have known each other for years, and both of them are well aware that the other guy can win.

Before the match, Keith might go up to Buddy and say, "Hey, Buddy, do you want to do a 10-percent saver?" Buddy replies, "Sure, Keith. You and I will have a 10-percent saver with each other."

Buddy beats Keith. Keith was in the winner's side but goes to the B side of the charts and eventually gets knocked out of the tournament.

Meanwhile, Buddy Hall is beating everybody, match after match. Keith is happy to see Buddy playing so well, and he's pulling for him to win the whole shebang. The higher Buddy Hall goes in the charts, the more Keith's 10 percent saver will be.

Buddy comes in third place. The tournament director gives Buddy Hall $10,000 for his third-place win. Buddy finds Keith at his hotel room or in the tournament room. He hands Keith $1,000 in cash, which is 10 percent of $10,000 that Buddy won.

That is how the majority of savers work.

Most times these savers are made between FRIENDS.

Sometimes a player will ask his opponent to save, and the opponent will say no. The opponent may have already saved with two other players in the tournament and has to cut up his winnings with a stakehorse. So he can only save with so many players.

At the $25,000-added Joss tourmament at Turning Stone, one player was backed in the tournament. He had to give half of his winnings plus expenses to his backer. He made savers with two players in the tournament. When the monies were chopped up with the backer and the two players, the player who cashed in the tournament had very little cash to show for his great play in the tournament.

To add insult to injury, he owed several specators in the stands money from previous bites. They were standing their with their hands out while the TD was paying him. They wanted to make sure they got paid, seeing this player collecting cash. After all, he owed them money. After the tournament, this player was seen going up to one of the people he paid a saver to, begging him to lend him some money. He was broke, even though he cashed high in the tournament.

Some players will get paid and "claim" they couldn't find the other player they made a saver with after they get paid their tournament monies. Some players get paid EARLY IN THE TOURNAMENT, as opposed to everybody getting paid at the END OF THE TOURNAMENT. The next time the two players see each other, the player who was supposed to be paid his saver is pissed off and wants to get paid immediately his 10 percent from the previous tournament.

In most cases, again, the tournament promoter and/or the tournament director have no idea about the arrangement of a saver made between the players. In fact, the viewing audience has no knowledge of it either.

Keith has paid and received savers. In each case, except one, he paid the saver out of his pocket in cash, or the other player who won paid Keith in cash. If it's a big number, the player who wins, if he receives a 1099 from the tournament promoter, will have to pay tax on the entire amount of tournament winnings, even though he paid out a saver.

One thing to add to this topic is that not all tournament promoters give the players who win more than 600 bucks a 1099. In fact, most REGIONAL TOURS do not give out 1099 forms to players who win more than 600 bucks.

Some high-profile tournament promoters do mail out 1099s each year. Allen Hopkins does. The IPT did. Mike Zuglan does. There have been some tournaments where Keith has won more than $600, say a regional tournament, and he did not receive a 1099 form. In fact, if one were to add up the entire year of winnings on some regional tours today, most of the top 15 players have definitely won more than $600 for the year. Yet, they are not sent a 1099. I never understood that.

Again, everybody's experience may be different than mine. I am sharing with you what I have seen with my own eyes.

Hope this helps to explain my experience with savers, taxes, and 1099 forms. :smile:

 

[samy1969]

Looking at the payouts, 96 players were paid a total of $200,000. If the entry fee was in fact $600, and if the number of players were 216, total cash in was $129,600. That means $70,400 was added. Am I missing something here?

 

[JAM]

Looking at the payouts, 96 players were paid a total of $200,000. If the entry fee was in fact $600, and if the number of players were 216, total cash in was $129,600. That means $70,400 was added. Am I missing something here?

That sounds about right to me.

Also, some players such as previous U.S. Open champions do not have to pay the $600 entry fee. They are given a FREE entry fee for life to the U.S. Open.

I don't know how many of them were there this year. But those monies -- $600 each for entry fee -- they didn't pay are also added monies.

 

[jay helfert]

Looking at the payouts, 96 players were paid a total of $200,000. If the entry fee was in fact $600, and if the number of players were 216, total cash in was $129,600. That means $70,400 was added. Am I missing something here?

That is the correct amount. Barry also paid $3,500 to the WPA in sanction fees. Plus several past champions got free entries, paid by Barry.

 

[Nostroke]

I understand Savers and the tax implications just fine. There was only one thing i was unclear on which has now been cleared up.

I would advise anyone having a real good year who is making a substantial saver, to try to do it "Jays Way", i.e with the TD involved to avoid the negative tax ramifications. Most of the time, it would make no difference, as once travel, hotel etc has been deducted, there is no significant tax liability for pool players but this year in Mika's case, there surely will be.