Understanding of tip-hardness

Detlev Rackow

Detlev Rackow

Barbox addict
Silver Member
Hi,

I am contemplating a tip-change from my standard LePro to a medium or soft tip, just to try the difference. I have read often that a softer tip allows for more english.

How does this happen:

1. If I play the cue-ball i.e. one tip-size off-center, does the soft tip give me more english from this, or
2. is the english the same if I play the same off-center stroke, but I can play further off-center than with a hard leather?

Second: Is a Talisman medium softer than a standard LePro leather, or is it similar and only a Talisman "soft" really softer than a LePro?

Regards,

Detlev
 
Detlev Rackow said:
Hi,

I am contemplating a tip-change from my standard LePro to a medium or soft tip, just to try the difference. I have read often that a softer tip allows for more english.

How does this happen:

1. If I play the cue-ball i.e. one tip-size off-center, does the soft tip give me more english from this, or
2. is the english the same if I play the same off-center stroke, but I can play further off-center than with a hard leather?

Second: Is a Talisman medium softer than a standard LePro leather, or is it similar and only a Talisman "soft" really softer than a LePro?

Regards,

Detlev
Click to expand...

LePros, by nature, are between medium-hard to hard tips. So if you're trying to go to extreme English on the white (say perhaps, 1 and 3/4 of a tip to the left using a 13mm diameter shaft) a hard tip will have a higher percentage of miscuing than a (maybe) medium - soft tip. Although I have never used a Talisman, I hear that it "grabs". Talisman are considered as laminated tips. But from what I have read, Talisman is not as strong as (say) Moori tips and/or Tiger's -my future tips- Everest and Sniper. And FYI, when using laminated tips, it's suggested that you just scuff the tip and not (Tip) Pick it... that's what I've learned.
 
I have seen different hardness scales, found this one online.

This scale for tip hardness can be found in Mueller's catalog.
These tips are rated on a scale of 1 (softest) to 4 (hardest).
Individual tips vary.

Elk Master: 1
Blue Knight: 1
Royal Oak: 2
Triumph: 2.5
Chandivert Match: 2.5
Triangle: 3.5
Chandivert Crown: 3.5
Chandivert Champion: 3.5
Le Pro: 3
Chandivert Rocky: 4

I personally use a triangle, and with it well groomed I get enough english without miscues. English is a tricky thing in that the more you use, the more it can throw off your shots. Also, a softer tip allows you to go further out on the cue ball. Just for proof try playing with a phenolic tip. you can still get english, but you will miscue if you go too far from center.
Good luck
 
Choose your tip according to the feel of the hit you want, not the amount of english you think you'll get.
 
re: talisman

IMO, a Talisman M is much harder than a LePro. The average lifespan of one of these for me is 1.5-2 years, and I play every day. Plus, its shape never changes, just add chalk.

-s
 
seymore15074 said:
Choose your tip according to the feel of the hit you want, not the amount of english you think you'll get.
Click to expand...

Seymore has it right. Miscues are a result of a poor stroke, not the hardness of a tip.

Although I wasn't able to find the document with a google search, there was a study done that showed that harder tips did not miscue more often than soft tips.
 
I'll chime in here, with the same observation. Miscues are a result of a poor stroke. Application of sidespin has nothing to do with how hard or soft the tip is. Again, a good stroke is all that is needed to get great contact with the CB...regardless of what tip you use.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
My LePro tip gets harder everytime I sand it and get it shaped up nice & round. I notice more of a "Tink" now that I have shaped it up a few times, but the amount of english does not seem to be affected.

It holds it shape better now, and I don't have to shape it up anymore.

:)
 
Tip hardness...

I used to be under the impression that softer tips miscue less also. About nine or ten years ago, I was talking to a very good player named Joe Demaio about tips. He told me you get more english from a harder tip. The reason he said that, is due to the fact that no energy is lost from the tip compressing, which is what a softer tip does when you hit the cue ball. To my surprise I found his information to be correct. Once I got used to the hard tip, I was able to juice the ball much more without miscueing. It just took a while to adjust to hit the ball without sliding off the cue ball. Guess I improved my stroke a little after all.
 
Thank you for your advice.

After reading this, I ask myself what the sense behind a medium or soft leather might be. Normally, I read a lot of postings from people who prefer i.e. a moori medium, but none of these appear to answer in this thread.

So, soft-tip-players, where are your comments? Is there any advantage in a soft tip at all? ;)

Regards,

Detlev
 
Scott Lee said:
I'll chime in here, with the same observation. Miscues are a result of a poor stroke. Application of sidespin has nothing to do with how hard or soft the tip is. Again, a good stroke is all that is needed to get great contact with the CB...regardless of what tip you use.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
Scott,

I like to use, what many feel is hard and some say is medium and as you saw last week I can spin a ball reasonably well. I've heard that masse artists use a soft tip. Is that true and if so, why? 3C players usually use a med or hard tip for this game where extreme side,top and bottom is more common than with pocket games.
 
Last edited:
supergreenman said:
Seymore has it right. Miscues are a result of a poor stroke, not the hardness of a tip.
Click to expand...

I think tip maintenance before and "while" playing has something to do with miscueing also.

I think Snipers are a much more forgiving tip, they hold the chalk better and longer and they have a nice grip. I am using a Triangle and haven't had any problems but I chalk often.

Here is another page with some hardness ratings

http://www.wolfbite.com/tip-selection.htm
 
3kushn said:
Scott,

I like to use, what many feel is hard and some say is medium and as you saw last week I can spin a ball reasonably well. I've heard that masse artists use a soft tip. Is that true and if so, why? 3C players usually use a med or hard tip for this game where extreme side,top and bottom is more common than with pocket games.
Click to expand...

Tom...Some trickshot artists have a soft tip on their masse' cues (I don't). The current world champion uses a Sniper tip on his masse' cues. A soft tip may have some application in a masse' shot, because of the extreme aspect of shooting these kinds of shots. They require a very hard stroke (for most heavy masse's), and barely hit the edge of the CB. IMO, for normal pool shooting, there is relatively little difference between tips...provided you have an accurate, repeatable stroke! Use what feels good to you, as the individual.

Scott Lee
 
Detlev Rackow said:
Normally, I read a lot of postings from people who prefer i.e. a moori medium, but none of these appear to answer in this thread.
Click to expand...

A Moori medium is much harder than a LePro (3 - med) as well. It may be a little harder than the Talisman too. You know how you wear a size 9 in Nike's, but it's a 10.5 in an Adidas? Tip manufacturers haven't decided on a hardness rating system, either.

Just pick one and try it. Like an eye exam 'better, same, or worse'.

-s
 
steev said:
Tip manufacturers haven't decided on a hardness rating system, either.

-s
Click to expand...

If you install an ElkMaster tip on a cue, and only shoot soft shots with it, it will remain relatively soft, and that soft feel should last for quite a while.

However, if you start breaking with it, shooting power stun follow shots, and so on, it will gradually become harder and harder. The result is that the tip will continually be changing, both in hardness and playability.

Something similar can perhaps be said about other tips. Pound the tip, and it will tend to become harder. Unless the tip is quite hard to start with.

I play almost exclusively now with "milk dud" tips, which are Elkmasters soaked in milk for 24 hours and then compressed in a c-clamp for another 24 hours. Flattens 'em out quite nicely.

Install, shape, and play. They don't mushroom, spin the ball very nicely, and play well. And by the way, they are HARD...

Miscues? As others have said, miscues are largely a result of a poor stroke. Do they miscue? Well, if my stroke is off, I assure you they will. Same as with any other tip.

Hardness ratings probably will change as you play with any tip. Maybe that's one reason the manufacturers just give us the soft-medium-hard-X hard ratings.

Some people say the Sniper tips are better than milk duds. Perhaps, but I'm very happy with the MDs...

Flex
 
steev said:
A Moori medium is much harder than a LePro (3 - med) as well. It may be a little harder than the Talisman too. You know how you wear a size 9 in Nike's, but it's a 10.5 in an Adidas?
Click to expand...

Actually, I have just changed from New Balance to Reebok ;-) however I get your point.

Guess I'll just try the Talisman medium and see whether I like it. Thanks for all your advice.

Regards,

Detlev
 
Last edited:
Detlev Rackow said:
Thank you for your advice.

After reading this, I ask myself what the sense behind a medium or soft leather might be. Normally, I read a lot of postings from people who prefer i.e. a moori medium, but none of these appear to answer in this thread.

So, soft-tip-players, where are your comments? Is there any advantage in a soft tip at all? ;)

Regards,

Detlev
Click to expand...

Chalk and stroke determines the spin/action/miscue, not the hardness of the tip. This is a very prominent misconception. The chalk grips the ball not the tip.

Tip hardness is sometimes determined by the size and speed of the table. A fast table or small table, softer tip: slow table or oversized table, harder tip.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top