JC
Coos Cues
I have no desire to play C players. I'm glad they have somewhere to go play.
We are starting another night of BCA play here with a $20 a night fee to weed out the players who don't want to improve.
JC
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United Billiard Leagues
- Thread starter gdc25
- Start date
I have no desire to play C players. I'm glad they have somewhere to go play.
We are starting another night of BCA play here with a $20 a night fee to weed out the players who don't want to improve.
JC
Agreed. When I joined BCA I was expecting to have a lot of table runs against me, the fact is, in a 6 month session it happened very few times, I believe I had 2 guys B&R on me, I've had about 3 table runs on me, etc.
When coaching in APA if there are 3 or more balls on the table I usually tell them to go for whatever they like because chances are, they'll get back to the table.
It simply doesn't happen that much, I would gladly play a C player who received 1 BIH per game and they would still have very little chance of winning.
And if you watch enough APA matches with 2's, 3's and 4's you'd know that BIH isn't going to help them get out if there are all 8 or 9 balls on the table. If they have to go cross table more than once they have little chance of getting out with 3 balls on the table.
Just for fun, I have attached the stats of the top five B&R players in our BCA session. As you can see even the top players don't get out (TR's) when they walk up to the table. I tracked it because I was amazed at how often it DIDN'T happen.
Attachments
JC
Coos Cues
It does both. Most of the fees will be returned at the end of the session in payouts.
This is not the night for unemployed pool bums. No biggie.
JC
I would agree. A lot of the APA players I play with want to improve and they ask questions, etc. but a lot of them also struggle with the $7 weekly fee plus the quarters.
I guess it depends on where he's at though and if the $20 includes table time? A buddy of mine is in BCA in the Boston area and he told me he paid $20 something a night, he called me an asshole because I pay $7
, but after some discussion we came to realize that we're not too far off. I pay $7 and if a 9B match against another 9 goes hill hill we've played no less than 15 racks, at .75 per rack so roughly an additional $6, puts me at $13, so $20 for him isn't that far off given the cost of living differences of where we live (Boise, ID - Boston, MA).
If you don't like handicapped leagues, then clearly this UBL is a really bad idea.
If the goal is to get roughly equal table time for players of widely different abilities, then I think it's an interesting way to do it. What I'd really like to know is whether the frequent placement decisions improve the lower players' position play and patterns.
If the goal is to get roughly equal table time for players of widely different abilities, then I think it's an interesting way to do it. What I'd really like to know is whether the frequent placement decisions improve the lower players' position play and patterns.
If they were getting direction/instructions from knowledgeable players then I would say yes, if not, then they will learn pool just like everything else in their life - they either get it or they don't.
JC
Coos Cues
I would agree. A lot of the APA players I play with want to improve and they ask questions, etc. but a lot of them also struggle with the $7 weekly fee plus the quarters.
I guess it depends on where he's at though and if the $20 includes table time? A buddy of mine is in BCA in the Boston area and he told me he paid $20 something a night, he called me an asshole because I pay $7
We know it will limit participation and that's one of our goals. We have some hell holes here and we also have two nice venues with diamond tables. We hope to limit participation to serious players who can afford it so we don't need to use any hell holes and can do the whole thing on nice equipment. So I guess you may say it's an elitist thing but as long as we aren't discriminating on anything other than affordability I think we're ok. If some lower level players want to play that's ok too. It's not going to be pitcher beer happy hour night though, that we are making clear. It's to play some good pool.
There will be no green fees for this.
JC
I get it. As much as I like playing APA it sure is nice to play BCA as well. We're lucky enough that the BCA league around here is comprised of people who want to play pool, they respect the establishment, they respect their opponents, and most importantly - they respect the game. APA, not so much, but that's OK, because that league is a night out for a lot of those people and if I don't like it I don't have to play, but I like it so therefore, I play
Good luck...:thumbup:
Jeez. It's like never ending Participation Trophies.
Is multiple BIH per inning allowed? So opponent hooks me, I get BIH and make a ball (yay for me!!) . Now I hooked myself.
Can I take another BIH, and continue doing so - in the same inning - until I run out of my, um, allotment.
Or do I simply get BIH at each inning, until I've used them up?
There's a lot of ways skilled players can ensure weaker opponents can't get out, even with multiple BIH each game.
My no BS view is this - there is NO amount of weight (except games on wire) that can compensate for skills, especially A+ level skills. A true pro can give an APA1 6 BIH per game and still win the match.
BUT you're not really helping the weaker player, you're simply ensuring they get more shots. They can make the same dumb shot 20 times in a match, each time with BIH and each time it's the WRONG SHOT.
They have no incentive to learn.
Hence the reference to Participation Trophies.
-von
Is multiple BIH per inning allowed? So opponent hooks me, I get BIH and make a ball (yay for me!!) . Now I hooked myself.
Can I take another BIH, and continue doing so - in the same inning - until I run out of my, um, allotment.
Or do I simply get BIH at each inning, until I've used them up?
There's a lot of ways skilled players can ensure weaker opponents can't get out, even with multiple BIH each game.
My no BS view is this - there is NO amount of weight (except games on wire) that can compensate for skills, especially A+ level skills. A true pro can give an APA1 6 BIH per game and still win the match.
BUT you're not really helping the weaker player, you're simply ensuring they get more shots. They can make the same dumb shot 20 times in a match, each time with BIH and each time it's the WRONG SHOT.
They have no incentive to learn.
Hence the reference to Participation Trophies.
-von
That's a nice rant against all forms of handicapping. Good luck telling all APA players, not to mention golfers and anywhere else with handicaps, that they should MAN UP and spend their hard-earned cash playing straight-up against better players.
It must be nice to be that self-righteous though :thumbup:
It must be nice to be that self-righteous though :thumbup:
You should do your research before you rant. Lower skilled players would get BIH when it's their inning, if they miss play would transfer to their opponent.
And I disagree, I can probably give an APA1 unlimited BIH's per game and still win the match. The fact his, he/she will get a chance at the table and win a few games. Against a 2 they have chance of winning, against a 3 or 4 they would still have a chance of winning. That's the freakin' point. That's what handicapping does, this is just a different form of it. And handicapping allows lower skilled players the opportunity to win, which gives them the motivation to play, which gets them involved in pool, which gets their friends involved with pool, which keeps pool alive, which gives you the opportunity to kick their asses and take their money - so quit your *****in'
I didn't group ALL handicapping into my, um, rant.
I specifically stated that you can not give enough WEIGHT, including BIH, for a A+ or PRO PLAYER to be anywhere near even with an unskilled player, like an APA1.
I stand by this statement.
Never said that handicapping can't help some players.
But you simply can not handicap a true beginner to play competitively with an A+ player.
For that, yes, you must MAN UP.
-von
I specifically stated that you can not give enough WEIGHT, including BIH, for a A+ or PRO PLAYER to be anywhere near even with an unskilled player, like an APA1.
I stand by this statement.
Never said that handicapping can't help some players.
But you simply can not handicap a true beginner to play competitively with an A+ player.
For that, yes, you must MAN UP.
-von
JC, I wouldn't call you and your colleagues elitists. I think you have particular goals for league, have come up with an action plan, and following through with that plan. I applaud you guys for that.
I think there is room for bangers, novice, intermediate, advanced and so on. Not all leagues are for every grouping and that's fine. I will say I know plenty of folks that $20 per night isn't going to scare them off. But as long as you are open to them in this league format you're being fair.
I wish you guys the best and would love to read more in the future about its workings (so maybe I can bring it to some of my League Operators)...
Pete
I didn't group ALL handicapping into my, um, rant.
I specifically stated that you can not give enough WEIGHT, including BIH, for a A+ or PRO PLAYER to be anywhere near even with an unskilled player, like an APA1.
I stand by this statement.
Never said that handicapping can't help some players.
But you simply can not handicap a true beginner to play competitively with an A+ player.
For that, yes, you must MAN UP.
-von
Their marketing slogan or whatever is something like ‘anyone can be a runout player’ but it’s just a slogan, no ones saying brand new players are going to hold their own against Pro level. It’s just a system to make an interesting league so that the league operators/owners make $, which is the point of that business...not actually creating better players. The lower levels get table time and feel like they ‘had a chance’ just like with scratch offs that are 1 number away from $10k.
Higher level players get no BIH and at a certain level have to give an extra BIH to their opponent lol. So it’s probably pretty decent training not to mess up a run out, when you know they have 3 BIH with 3 balls left on the table. Kinda kewl I suppose.
More smarts or more luck? Either way, the word is that he and Pete Balner did very well, selling Palmer Video.
Eric
I've been watching the UBL playoffs today, via the UBLnow Facebook stream.
At first I wondered "Where is all this prize money coming from?". And "They can't possibly have a sustainable business model!"
But after listening to the stream for a while maybe I realized the answer to both questions: Apparently there is NO League Operator. Everything is handled through the UBL app.
Why does APA pay out very little to the players? Because being an APA League Operator is a full-time job. Recording scores in the system, printing out next weeks scoresheets, traveling around, running qualifier tournaments, resolving handicap complaints, etc. So League Operators need to be paid for doing a full time job.
But if there is no League Operator, most of the money can go back to the players, with the UBL home office taking a cut (and the poolhall gets 10% of the playoff winnings of any team from their poolhall).
Mike said on the stream that the initial prize money is coming from some rich benefactors. But apparently he hopes the money, and handicap system, brings in thousands of players, and that will fund even bigger prizes.
At first I wondered "Where is all this prize money coming from?". And "They can't possibly have a sustainable business model!"
But after listening to the stream for a while maybe I realized the answer to both questions: Apparently there is NO League Operator. Everything is handled through the UBL app.
Why does APA pay out very little to the players? Because being an APA League Operator is a full-time job. Recording scores in the system, printing out next weeks scoresheets, traveling around, running qualifier tournaments, resolving handicap complaints, etc. So League Operators need to be paid for doing a full time job.
But if there is no League Operator, most of the money can go back to the players, with the UBL home office taking a cut (and the poolhall gets 10% of the playoff winnings of any team from their poolhall).
Mike said on the stream that the initial prize money is coming from some rich benefactors. But apparently he hopes the money, and handicap system, brings in thousands of players, and that will fund even bigger prizes.
Finals start in 5 minutes.
https://www.facebook.com/5657232304...STEwMDAwMDAwMTk0ODMwNDoyNjMyMTI4MDYwMTMwNTY2/
Imma weigh in on this ...
Background: I played APA league in the late 80's, a couple of in-house teams and a 'road' team for the Brew and Cue in Chattanooga. I was a strong 5. I don't gamble, but play for enjoyment.
Not having played in many years, I was intrigued with Sigel's new system. Having played league 8-ball before I knew that there would be attempts to 'game' the system. The UBL handicap system 'seems' to be pretty robust at defending against those attempts.
But having watched some of the play from the playoff (and I was there with my son for a bit yesterday as I live close to CBC) gave me a better understanding of how it actually happens.
Now, I don't want to take anything away from Mike's efforts and I think he's devised as workable a system as any, but like any 'system', play is based on what will benefit you the most within the system. The stated goal of having all players run tables like the pros is a pipe dream. As many have said before, a lower-level player ... even with 5 or 6 BIH's ... won't get out because they will select poor shots. A coach helps this but I think there are time limits on coaching (I have the rules but haven't read them cover-to-cover, so take that with a grain of salt!). The actual game play is mostly strategic, followed distantly (IMNSHO) by actually playing pool.
If you're a 4 handicap (meaning you get 4 BIH's per game in a race to 4) playing a 0 handicap (who gets no BIH's, except for fouls), your strategy is to run 3 balls, then take your 4 BIH's (you can't use a BIH for the 8) to win. If you're the 0, your strategy is to either run out (if possible) or force your opponent to use their BIH's to get out of a trap. If you're the 0 and you can't get out, a well-coached 4 will then safe you to death, using free BIH's until they can use their allotted BIH's to win. Of course, the 0 can make his opponents' balls and give up a BIH but you can only do that a couple of times before you're up against the opponent having BIH for his remaining group.
I'd encourage you to watch the coverage by Upstate Al, especially the final match (which is a separate feed due to time constraints on Fb live, and showcases a 4 against a 0) and you'll see what I mean. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the UBL, but I don't think I'd enjoy playing in that system, even though the chance to win a pile of money is there. After all, the Kracker Jacks #5 team walked away with $100 large last night!
Background: I played APA league in the late 80's, a couple of in-house teams and a 'road' team for the Brew and Cue in Chattanooga. I was a strong 5. I don't gamble, but play for enjoyment.
Not having played in many years, I was intrigued with Sigel's new system. Having played league 8-ball before I knew that there would be attempts to 'game' the system. The UBL handicap system 'seems' to be pretty robust at defending against those attempts.
But having watched some of the play from the playoff (and I was there with my son for a bit yesterday as I live close to CBC) gave me a better understanding of how it actually happens.
Now, I don't want to take anything away from Mike's efforts and I think he's devised as workable a system as any, but like any 'system', play is based on what will benefit you the most within the system. The stated goal of having all players run tables like the pros is a pipe dream. As many have said before, a lower-level player ... even with 5 or 6 BIH's ... won't get out because they will select poor shots. A coach helps this but I think there are time limits on coaching (I have the rules but haven't read them cover-to-cover, so take that with a grain of salt!). The actual game play is mostly strategic, followed distantly (IMNSHO) by actually playing pool.
If you're a 4 handicap (meaning you get 4 BIH's per game in a race to 4) playing a 0 handicap (who gets no BIH's, except for fouls), your strategy is to run 3 balls, then take your 4 BIH's (you can't use a BIH for the 8) to win. If you're the 0, your strategy is to either run out (if possible) or force your opponent to use their BIH's to get out of a trap. If you're the 0 and you can't get out, a well-coached 4 will then safe you to death, using free BIH's until they can use their allotted BIH's to win. Of course, the 0 can make his opponents' balls and give up a BIH but you can only do that a couple of times before you're up against the opponent having BIH for his remaining group.
I'd encourage you to watch the coverage by Upstate Al, especially the final match (which is a separate feed due to time constraints on Fb live, and showcases a 4 against a 0) and you'll see what I mean. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the UBL, but I don't think I'd enjoy playing in that system, even though the chance to win a pile of money is there. After all, the Kracker Jacks #5 team walked away with $100 large last night!
a little bump