Upa, the players and the US Open

[Double D]

WPBA/UPA sanction

How can Karen play in Joss Tour events if the UPA contract mirrors the WPBA contract? Is it easier to get permission to play in unsanctioned events easier for the women??? Makes it seem to me that either the contract isn't as restrictive as it seems, or the fact that the governing body of womens pool is pretty easy going as far as letting women play in events that aren't sanctioned. If it is the later, what are the odds that CW will allow people to go play that easily? Or am I just being stupid and not understanding?

 

[jjinfla]

Gee, evidently the Joss tour must get special dispensation from the pope since several of the men who played in it belong to the UPA. So how does the UPA decide which tournaments require sanctioning? I seem to recall overhearing someone say that last year when several of the women from the WPBA played at Capone's in a tournament run by CW that Rocky had to monetarily compensate the WPBA. Evidently the UPA makes up a new unique contract for each tournament they want to sanction. As is evident from their home page. And it seems that Allen Hopkins got one that pleases him. Maybe the UPA will make up a special contract for the US Open too. Is the UPA attorney doing all this work pro bono? And since precedent is being set in Allen Hopkin's tournament where it is not necessary for players to be members of the UPA maybe Behrman should ask for the same in his contract. Since Mika didn't play in the US Open last year because it was not sanctioned why did he play in the Joss Tournament since it also was not sanctioned. Seems a bit hypocritical on his part. Jake

 

[Ken in CT]

I assume that Charlie the Dragon has nothing against the Joss. After all, he has played in it himself (I think it's his only win). The Joss is self-supporting and does not need the touring pros so the UPA is unlikely to succeed in extorting money from the Joss.

The new contract which requires the pros to promise not to play in any unsanctioned tournaments without permission is designed primarily to give Charlie the Dragon the ability to put the squeeze on promoters holding touring pro level tournaments. The contract is not in the interest of the players since it will restrict their ability to make a living. They cannot get by on the one tournament the UPA puts on or the few sanctioned tournaments there are.

Any pro who signs the new contract is cutting his own throat. Charlie the Dragon and his gang of four have gone too far this time. They are working against both the players and the promoters.
Ken in CT

 

[jjinfla]

Ken,

Is the tournament that CW is running this weekend in Orlando sanctioned by the UPA? It's not listed one way or the other on the UPA website.

I can't picture what tables the college kids and APA people will play on. I sure would be pissed if I bought VIP seats to watch the pros and come to find out that I was paying to watch unknowns. But then, even Charlie wouldn't do that. But no VIP seat for me this year. Still not even sure if I will drive down there on Saturday. I guess it all depends on how I feel when I wake up Saturday. But I might go just to buy Harry a drink or six. Jake

 

[Ken in CT]

Charlie's post in the tournaments section of the forum says "In conjunction with the Pro Event" so there must be one in addition to college and APA. I think it is not UPA sanctioned since it's not on the website and the next event is listed as the Gabriels 9 ball in Las Vegas.

I believe I've been to that room and it is small so I don't see how he can run all those tournaments there.

I've seen nothing anywhere else about this event so its a mystery to me. I hope it's not a long drive for you. I drove there from Holiday once to watch a women's event and left before very long. I went to one of Kennedy's one-day events the next day.
Ken in CT

 

[accdealer]

First off, let me state a small disclaimer. I actually have no opinion on the UPA, The US Open, etc. I have met CW, and I thought he was very nice. I also have met Nick Varner, and words cannot describe how nice he is. CW is a very good player, and we all know how great of a player Nick Varner is at all of the games.

Now, here is something that has been puzzling me since February. At the Trump Marina 10-Ball Challenge, I was told that Mika and Tony Robles were not there because of UPA restrictions. I mean, why else wouldn't they show up to a MAJOR tournament just south of their hometown? So here I am, running through the parking garage to make the players meeting and who do I see in the elevator but CW and Nick Varner? Now why would CW restrict his players from playing in this major event, but actually play in it himself?

Chew on that for a while.

 

[bruin70]

accdealer,,,obviously, you were misinformed. you answered your own question.

as for mika, he was in the phillipines on pleasure/business as he has off and on for the past year. he has been digging some business roots into the phillipines because he is very very very well known there.

i don't know about robles however. i can say that many times in the past he has opted to spend time with his son rather than compete.

 

[Vicki]

As for your comment about my inclusion on the BD poll being a 'token', are you saying that you don't believe I was mentioned and that BD simply threw my name in as a gesture? I don't buy that for a second. A magazine that writes an article once a year about the best billiard sites on the net and barely mentions AzB, would have no reason to throw me a bone like that.

Mike

Mike,

You are nobody's token. Not that I need to tell you, but you are by far one of the most respected media personalities in the business.

I think you, and all the other people who promote pool in a positive way, deserve to be able to make a decent living. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how fans of pool get off accusing people of trying to make money - as if it's a bad thing! If someone makes a profit on their event, publication, product or what ever they are accused of being "money grabbing schemers." How ridiculous!

You have my respect for the hard work that you do and the sacrifices you and your family make for us to be able to enjoy AzB!

Vicki

 

[Vicki]

Well, here is an interesting one.

The US Open is not a UPA sanctioned tournament. The UPA contract calls for UPA members to only play in UPA santioned events.

Earl's contract with one of his sponsors says he must play in the US Open each year.

So, how does that one work?

Mike

This thread has gotten extremely off topic. I'll attempt to bring it back to your original question, which has yet to be answered.

To the best of my knowledge, Earl is not a UPA member, so the fact that the US Open is not sanctioned by the UPA will allow him to play in it since you have to be a member of the UPA to play in one of their sanctioned events. If all that is true, and I'm a little foggy on all the in's and out's of the UPA requirements, then all the UPA players will not be at the US Open since they cannot play in any non-UPA sanctioned event without an exemption by the UPA (an exemption I somehow doubt they will offer given the attempted boycott last year). So either there will be very few players at the US Open OR the UPA players will be there and Earl will not - thus causing him to be in violation with his sponsorship agreement.

Right?

I have wondered how this will all playout myself. I am also curious how Matchroom Sports will handle these issues given that thay ADORE Earl in the UK. The Mosconi Cup and the World Championships are going to be affected by these conflicts as well.

Good questions. I hope someone has some answers.

Vicki

 

[azhousepro]

as for mika, he was in the phillipines on pleasure/business as he has off and on for the past year. he has been digging some business roots into the phillipines because he is very very very well known there.

i don't know about robles however. i can say that many times in the past he has opted to spend time with his son rather than compete.

These are exactly what I had heard about Mika and Tony not playing at the Trump event. My understanding was that Mika tried to find some way to change his schedule so that he could go to the Trump event.

As far as the UPA goes, I was told that they had no interested in the Trump event because it was 10-ball.

Mike

 

[DoomCue]

I've been lurking for quite some time, and I've got to throw in my $.02 on this.

I'm not sure I understand what all the fuss is about over the UPA. Can anybody possibly argue that the state of men's pool is satisfactory at this point in time? Players aren't happy, promoters aren't happy, and fans aren't happy. Right now, the sport has no direction whatsoever, there is no real governing body, and the players have no future. There are no benefits to being a pro player. There are no health plans, no 401K, no pensions, nothing. All a pro is guaranteed is a chance to have to beat somebody else just as good in order to make just enough money to survive. Obviously, a change must be made in order to garner our sport the attention and monetary awards it deserves. Somebody (Charlie Williams) is trying to do something to organize pool in an attempt to effect some changes, and all anybody can do is bitch about it. Seems to me that people are complaining about the status quo, and then complaining again when somebody wants to change the status quo. There's a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The corollary is also true - if it's broke, then dammit, fix it. Well, pool is broken, and it needs to be fixed.

A lot of people seem to think that CW is harming the game by trying to get a certain promoter to honor his promises. If I agree to pay you $20 to wash my car, and after you're done, I give you $10, wouldn't you try to seek some course of action to get the other $10 owed to you? What course of action can a pool player take against Barry Behrman? Is there a governing body with which the player can file a grievance? Is there anybody else he can complain to besides other people who got screwed? Yes, I know that Barry did pay up in the end, but what if he didn't? The player just ends up biting the bullet. CW's forming of an organization which represents the players and their interests means using that organization to do just that. It is in the players' best interests to have guaranteed money be exactly that - guaranteed. The game could possibly be harmed short-term, but long-term, it can only get better if the UPA is supported. There's too much short-term thinking, and too much "me, me, me." That type of thinking has destroyed past tours. The men need to put away their selfishness. The women are getting it right, and the UPA is trying to mimic them. The WPBA seems to be a good model to me.

The UPA contract is exactly the same as the WPBA contract, but I don't hear the women players whining about playing in non-sanctioned events. Obviously, the contract isn't as restrictive as some people seem to think (see Grady's rant), since I see women all the time playing in non-WPBA events. The women are doing what's necessary to promote the game, and are willing to do whatever it takes, and they're still able to do the extra things on the side. The men should do the same by forming an organization for the players, by the players, in order to provide some guidance for the sport (see the US Declaration of Independence). This is what CW is trying to do, and I can't see how he can be faulted for it.

As far as having to be a member of the UPA to play in a UPA-sanctioned event, what's the big deal? In golf, you have to earn your tour card in order to play on the tour. On the WPBA tour, you have to earn your way onto the tour. To play in a UPA event, you just have to join the UPA. No qualifiers, no points, just a very small fee ($25/year for membership, or $100/year for your tournament points to count in the standings). Personally, I would rather see the qualifier format for the UPA, but that's just my opinion (as is this long post). Obviously, there are exceptions to the required memberships of these respective organizations (see Annika Sorenstam), so I can't see why Earl wouldn't be allowed to play in UPA events (unless his infamous "charm" gets him into trouble).

These are just my opinions, but I feel like pool seriously needs a change. I'd be willing to bet that most people in the pool world feel the same. Instead of tearing Charlie and the UPA down, I feel he deserves to be lauded for attempting to put together a real unified tour. If it succeeds, then great, pool may get out of the gutter. If he fails, nothing has been lost since pool is already in the gutter. I support CW and the UPA because I feel that the rewards far outweigh the risk, and I would like to see his dreams come to fruition.

 

[bruin70]

i happen to agree with you. what they seem to be complaining about, as i see it, is that they don't like the WAY CW is doing things.....as if they have a better idea to implement(see grady's whining post)....as if they feel they are giving up something to the upa(yeah, like what. if you have nothing, there is nothing to give up).

what CW has to face, from all sides, players and promoters, is what they all perceive is an infringement on their fiercely guarded independance. promoters and players have all grown up doing things their own way, which as we know, is the wrong way. they will never come together unless they see something tangible, like donald trump holding up a ten million dollar fund for a men's tour. anything less is too vague and uncertain for them to invest of their "effort".

. Somebody (Charlie Williams) is trying to do something to organize pool in an attempt to effect some changes, and all anybody can do is bitch about it. Seems to me that people are complaining about the status quo, and then complaining again when somebody wants to change the status quo. There's a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The corollary is also true - if it's broke, then dammit, fix it. Well, pool is broken, and it needs to be fixed.

 

[Blackjack]

I tend to agree with you that CW IS doing something. I am glad that somebody is. As a player, I have a different perspective on this issue, as I feel players are being once again used as pawns in an argument between two separate business entitities. This is nothing new in men's professional pool. Personally, my only issue with this whole thing is this:

We are not ready for exclusivity - YET

For 17 years I was out there scraping money up to get from place to place. I did not have the luxuary of a big name sponsor, I was not independently wealthy, and I was not winning major tournaments on a regular basis. I believe that 90% of the UPA players will also fit into that category. Now it would be different if there was a sanctioned tour stop every week of the year, then I could see the argument for playing exclusively in UPA events. But even at 14 events a year (and I believe I am stretching the schedule), the average player might take home (If they are lucky) $200 per event, or $2800. I believe that I am exaggerating that amount as well. Also, it costs money to get to the tournament, and it costs money to get back. I need a room, food, all out of my pocket. As a player that does not have a major sponsorship deal with Predator, Brunswick, JS Sales, etc, I NEED to enter other venus, regardless of what CW thinks about it. Exclusivity might work fine for "maybe" the top 5-7 players. It won't help out anybody else. This was proven in the MPBT when Camel tried the same thing.

I know Charlie is doing his best, and I respect that. But as a player, I am not willing to cut off my nose to spite my face. When the MPBT cut there schedule back 1993, it was also presented to the players as a way to "help out the sport". I am referring to losing tour stops to finance the World Team Billiards fiasco, as well as the costly Worlwide Collectibles Trading Card deal. You should have seen the look on some of the players faces when their slots in the 1993 World Championships were given to some of the visiting European players, many of whom were shooting with snooker cues. Back then I made the decision look out for myself and my interests. Players lack representation. I'm not talking about electing a player rep for the Tour, because players in all shapes and sizes have been pushed around filling those positions.

Way back when, I was involved in the business of professional wrestling. Workers (wrestlers) and referees, and others were not represented at all by anyone. We were constantly being ripped off, taken advatage of, and lied to by promoters, agents, and scam artists. They always knew that they could wave the carrot under our noses, and out of desperation for work, food, and shelter, we would sign the contracts regardless of what they contained. None of us could afford an attorney to review the contract, and the promoters used that to their own advantage. In 1984, Jesse Ventura was the first guy to stand up and demand private, outside representation. Nobody liked it, but slowly but surely, it became the standardized way to do business with signed talent. Pool players should take a long hard look at what Jesse Ventura did and model their representation accordingly. Back in 1980, I was told by a wrestling promoter that "this is just the way it is." 23 years later, its not like that anymore, and it changed because one man had the BB's to stand up and say "enough is enough."

My question to CW is this:

What am I getting out of the disagreement between you and Barry Behrman? I fail to see where this helps a player with the ability to make it past the first round, maybe the second. What are you getting out of this? Good press? Bad Press? Unfair criticism? I understand it is easy to single you out as you have volunteered to keep yourself in the forefront. If the UPA is best thing ever to happen to pool, people will shake your hand and pat you on the back. If the UPA fails, your name will always be associated with it, and people will probably never allow you to live it down. My suggestion is to stop doing the same things over and over expecting different results. Many of us older guys are shaking heads saying, "here we go again."

The US Open is the longest running tournament. Just out of historic value alone, you should work diligently to come to some sort of compromise. The PBA made a major mistake when it ordered its players to cease their participation in the BCA 14.1 US Open. Please, do not make the same type of error.

 

[jjinfla]

Doomcue you would give much more credence to your unsolisited testimonial if you would attach your name to it rather than a nom de plume. Otherwise it just sounds like something that CW would have written. And if you read some of the UPA's contract's you will see that now a player they must also sign a contract with the UPA in addition to the small, as you say it, membership fee. Only Hopkins has the contract part excluded from his tournament. What Charlie does not understand is that he is living in Florida which is a right to work state. In other words, unions are not allowed. Of course that does explain all the low salaries the workers here get. LOL. If the UPA had their own set of scheduled tournaments then I could understand them making requirements for their members to play in it. That is what the WPBA does. But to me it appears that the UPA is trying to strong arm independent tournament opperators and make them kow tow to the UPA. Jake

 

[Josh C]

Dear Mr. Gremlin,
I have read many of your posts and I am responding to your comment regarding how the tournament promoters make all the money. Since you are such a smart man, and you think you know where all this money is going, I want to know when your tournament is so I can attend. I mean, it makes sense from such a smart man as yourself to cash in on all the big bucks that these promoters are making!

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Are there any pro players out there planning to play in the Sands Reno Open this year (next week actually) who are members of the UPA?

Just wondering,

 

[Skeezicks]

My question to CW is this:

An e-mail would have a better chance of getting a response, imo.

 

[azhousepro]

L.S., I heard that Max Eberle was thinking about trying to head out to Reno after the Florida event.

He isn't a UPA member, but I believe Keith McCready is supposed to be in Reno too.

Mike

 

[Wally in Cincy]

Re: Re: Upa, the players and the US Open

.....I have wondered how this will all playout myself. I am also curious how Matchroom Sports will handle these issues given that thay ADORE Earl in the UK. The Mosconi Cup and the World Championships are going to be affected by these conflicts as well.

Vicki [/B]

Matchroom will do exactly what they want and Earl will be at the Mosconi Cup and the WPC and the WPL. Matchroom doesn't give a rat's ass about Charlie W or the UPA.

 

[bruin70]

Re: Re: Re: Upa, the players and the US Open

Matchroom will do exactly what they want and Earl will be at the Mosconi Cup and the WPC and the WPL. Matchroom doesn't give a rat's ass about Charlie W or the UPA.

anybody with money can get the ALL pool players to jump through hoops.

and btw,,,when did they start adoring earl? i know they didn't put up with his antics in cardiff....