Uppers

chefjeff said:
Jeff Livingston
*(the same govt. that incarcerates mostly poor people for the similar dealings, btw.)

I think i've said everything i've had to say about the drug topic in the past.

Funny that you mention the government and their hypocrisy.

Just like the cocaine disparity between powder cocaine, and crack(base) form.
There was a time where if you were busted for having 5 grams of crack cocaine, you received a mandatory sentence of 5 years, where to have an equal mandatory sentence with powder cocaine, you would need to be caught with 500 grams. That's 100/1 ratio.
It's techically the same drug, but it is treated as if it were 2 different ones. There are those that say that the government has targeted the crack, because of it's alleged association with impoverished abusers.
Basically, trying to targeting the poor to harsher sentences.
Last i looked, it has been changed to 25 grams of crack vs. 500grams of powder to get the mandatory sentence, but they are still treated like 2 different drugs.

You have to wonder why.
 
Guys let me say I dont care if I shot like earl I would not take them.I was just wondering why I hear if a bunch.
 
lacey6783 said:
Guys let me say I dont care if I shot like earl I would not take them.I was just wondering why I hear if a bunch.

Because it's true, and some of the pros you think play absolutely amazing at times, are precisely the ones who are taking them.
 
TATE said:
There is nothing rational about taking illegal drugs. Either you do or you don't. If you do, in my book you're a loser.

Chris
Where exactly does the U.S. Constitution give Congress the power to regulate the practice of medicine? In my book, if you don't know that these laws, at least the federal ones, are themselves illegal, then you are ignorant.

I agree, however, that taking anything addictive that damages your health to play pool is not very smart. I have close friends that cannot play without a boost and that stuff is very dangerous. Staying up for days without sleep and hardly eating can lead to all kinds of problems for your body and your mind.
 
unknownpro said:
Where exactly does the U.S. Constitution give Congress the power to regulate the practice of medicine? In my book, if you don't know that these laws, at least the federal ones, are themselves illegal, then you are ignorant.

I agree, however, that taking anything addictive that damages your health to play pool is not very smart. I have close friends that cannot play without a boost and that stuff is very dangerous. Staying up for days without sleep and hardly eating can lead to all kinds of problems for your body and your mind.

Very interesting that Terrorist actions have killed a few thousand people in this country, and everyone gets all hyped up about it to go slaughter the enemy.

Yet, no one even thinks about the FDA, and it's role in this country, and the masses of people that are killed because of drugs that get approval, even though they can kill you.
 
chefjeff said:
SOME drugs are illegal, foolhardy, stupid, and dangerous....for SOME people, SOME of the time.

Drugs are like any other tool. They require careful use if the job is to be done successfully.

Uppers, at the right time, can make a tremendous difference in good outcomes. To dismiss them or to embrace them wholeheartedly is irrational. Use them with care for specific circumstances and they can be good and valuable. For example, the government* gives them to military pilots who are in the air for long periods of time....it makes killing people more efficient and saves replacing crashed airplanes. The risk of use is small compared to the risk of mission failure. This could be true of a late-night pool match, too, couldn't it for SOME people, SOME of the time?

Jeff Livingston

*(the same govt. that incarcerates mostly poor people for the similar dealings, btw.)

We are talking about meth, are we not? I believe the person who made this thread is talking about speed. There is a HUGE controversy about our government giving our pilots speed, being that it causes hallucinations, schizophrenia, paranoia, anxiety attacks, tremors, heart palpitations, heart attacks, damage to the spinal cord, extensive brain damage including early Alzheimers, nerve damage, rapid aging, and an intense craving for more after the dosage wears off leading to a nearly impossible to curb lifelong addiction. I know a few people who's lives have been permanently destroyed and changed from this drug. If you are not talking about methamphetamine, be more specific. If you ARE talking about meth, YOU ARE A F***ING IDIOT, and also a prick. You know alot of young impressionable pool players read this board.
 
Just to let you know also, right now meth is the worst drug epidemic in history, it's all over the US and the world now, and it has surpassed heroin as the most dangerous and addictive drug available. Kudos to you jeff for supporting it's usage. I wouldn't be surprised if you are an addict, they are known to make up as many reasons as possible to use the drug. LOL I can't get over how disgusted I am after reading your post...
 
Sorry for the post az

I am sorry I ever started this post.i wasnt talking about me taking them as I dont even know what half of you are talking about.I was talking about diet pills over and under the counter.
 
I think the subject's legitimate, but hard to believe anybody with any kind of life actually fools around with meth.

Using crank in marathon matches has got to be one of the reasons a lot of pool players don't make the typical three score and ten.
 
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lacey6783 said:
Guys let me say I dont care if I shot like earl I would not take them.I was just wondering why I hear if a bunch.

Thank you and don't sweat it. I just want to make sure that others reading the boards the don't get the impression we think it's cool or useful to use illegal drugs. They create more problems than they're worth.

Chris
 
LastTwo said:
Just to let you know also, right now meth is the worst drug epidemic in history, it's all over the US and the world now, and it has surpassed heroin as the most dangerous and addictive drug available. Kudos to you jeff for supporting it's usage. I wouldn't be surprised if you are an addict, they are known to make up as many reasons as possible to use the drug. LOL I can't get over how disgusted I am after reading your post...

Thanks for your response, Last Two. I admire your concern for drug use and drug addicts. I share that concern, too. And I used to believe what you believe, until I put aside my prejudices and took an objective, honest look at the drug war. That's why I posted the truth as much as I knew it would bother the statists and other control freaks, and the misinformed, like you. I hesitate to say it, but I think you've been worked over by the drug thugs.

Meth is NOT the worst drug epidemic in history. Not by a long shot. It's just the current drug of choice for the drug warriors. Look at the illegal power they're gaining via the meth war. The constituion is being shit down the toilet, all in an attempt to "save the children." PUKE! It was crack a while ago. Before that, cocaine. Before that, LSD. Before that, pot. Before that, alcohol. Before that, opium. Before that.... Can you guess which drug is the most addictive and most deadly? Hint: The govt makes millions off of it, working both sides of the street.

And,herion addiction is overrated. Dr. Dean Edel (sp) has said repeatedly that he'd rather have his son addicted to herion than alcohol because one can live with a herion addiction, hold a job, raise a family, etc., whereas alcohol abuse destroys a person, his family, his job, his credibility, etc.

If I was a meth addict, I---and I'm laughing as I write this--I certainly wouldn't need to post on AZ to have a reason to use it. Come on....geez! This type of sillyness is what I was talking about in the so called war on drugs (which is really a war on some PEOPLE, mostly the politically powerless)

We are talking about meth, are we not? I believe the person who made this thread is talking about speed. There is a HUGE controversy about our government giving our pilots speed, being that it causes hallucinations, schizophrenia, paranoia, anxiety attacks, tremors, heart palpitations, heart attacks, damage to the spinal cord, extensive brain damage including early Alzheimers, nerve damage, rapid aging, and an intense craving for more after the dosage wears off leading to a nearly impossible to curb lifelong addiction.

I'm talking about liberty to own one's body and the responsibility to not initiate harm onto others when exercising said liberty, and make one's life happier through rational thinking and acting.

"mpossible to curb [a] lifelong addiction?" Do you really believe that the drug, per se, is the reason people stay on the drug? It's the high. People choose to change reality to suit their desires. That's the addiction, mysticism. You've got it, too, if you continue to ignore the reality of the drug situation. It is so much more involved than what the drug czars say. They're bald-faced liars and their actions show that they don't give a damn about users.


I know a few people who's lives have been permanently destroyed and changed from this drug. If you are not talking about methamphetamine, be more specific. If you ARE talking about meth, YOU ARE A F***ING IDIOT, and also a prick. You know alot of young impressionable pool players read this board.

I'm from the drug generation, man, so I know plenty of people who---and this wording is important---people who HAVE DESTROYED THEIR OWN LIVES BY CHOOSING TO ABUSE DRUGS. To blame the drug is to divert personal responsibility, the flip-side of the liberty coin. This is just one of the dangerous distortions that must be propagated when people use force to make others live to their standards. The whole drug war is filled with them.

Young people, maybe moreso than adults, need to know the truth. They must defend themselves against peer pressure, stupid adults, and dangerous laws and drug abuse. Bogus programs, such as D.A.R.E., Just Say No, etc. actually make the drug abuse problems worse. Young people are not stupid. They hear the lies and then see that adults function on drugs just fine. "How can this be" they ask? "They lied about pot, they're probably lying about speed, too. I think I'll try it." THAT is the danger: lies about the whole situation. No one can make intelligent decisions when s/he doesn't have the facts. URL=Young people and drugs] are used as a political tool by the dishonest elite intent on holding onto power, even if children die.

I'm hooked on liberty and with this sickening, unnecessary debate, I'm Jonesin' right now.

Jeff Livingston
 
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lacey6783 said:
I am sorry I ever started this post.i wasnt talking about me taking them as I dont even know what half of you are talking about.I was talking about diet pills over and under the counter.

Don't be sorry, lacey6783. Threads seem to take on a life of their own. It's just like talking at a pool hall...you never know where the conversation will go. This is the beauty of it.

Diet pills are drugs, too. And your body doesn't have a clue as to which side of the counter a drug comes from or by what name it is called.

Jeff Livingston
 
drivermaker said:
Now, now....don't be calling him those names for just the meth alone. It goes beyond that. ;)

Thank you for providing a great example of how the drug thugs use dishonesties to persuade people to give them their unearned power. Attack the person, ignore the facts, inflame emotions, and--booom!--ChefJeff is bad, therefore his thoughts are bad, therefore drugs are bad. Non-sequitur dishonesties all designed to stay lazy in thinking and acting, resulting in lost knowledge, bad choices, and destroyed lives.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Meth is NOT the worst drug epidemic in history. Not by a long shot. It's just the current drug of choice for the drug warriors. Look at the illegal power they're gaining via the meth war. The constituion is being shit down the toilet, all in an attempt to "save the children." PUKE!
Jeff Livingston

You don't have kids, right?

I used to say this kind of thing, too, but I've come to the conclusion that while I appreciate an idealistic view of personal liberty and our poor abused Constitution, there are some things that most folks just can't handle. Especially kids, but also the large proportion of dopes among us.

In those cases in the which the medicine is way too strong, I think some governmental in loco parentis is the lesser of two evils. Which drugs to ban? Alcohol is manageable for most, though more has to be done to stop DWI deaths. And no doubt the feds exaggerate the dangers of pot. But coke, heroin, meth? The harm those users do to everybody who crosses their path is too much for any sane society to tolerate.
 
chefjeff said:
Thanks for your response, Last Two. I admire your concern for drug use and drug addicts. I share that concern, too. And I used to believe what you believe, until I put aside my prejudices and took an objective, honest look at the drug war. That's why I posted the truth as much as I knew it would bother the statists and other control freaks, and the misinformed, like you. I hesitate to say it, but I think you've been worked over by the drug thugs.

Meth is NOT the worst drug epidemic in history. Not by a long shot. It's just the current drug of choice for the drug warriors. Look at the illegal power they're gaining via the meth war. The constituion is being shit down the toilet, all in an attempt to "save the children." PUKE! It was crack a while ago. Before that, cocaine. Before that, LSD. Before that, pot. Before that, alcohol. Before that, opium. Before that.... Can you guess which drug is the most addictive and most deadly? Hint: The govt makes millions off of it, working both sides of the street.

And,herion addiction is overrated. Dr. Dean Edel (sp) has said repeatedly that he'd rather have his son addicted to herion than alcohol because one can live with a herion addiction, hold a job, raise a family, etc., whereas alcohol abuse destroys a person, his family, his job, his credibility, etc.

If I was a meth addict, I---and I'm laughing as I write this--I certainly wouldn't need to post on AZ to have a reason to use it. Come on....geez! This type of sillyness is what I was talking about in the so called war on drugs (which is really a war on some PEOPLE, mostly the politically powerless)



I'm talking about liberty to own one's body and the responsibility to not initiate harm onto others when exercising said liberty, and make one's life happier through rational thinking and acting.

"mpossible to curb [a] lifelong addiction?" Do you really believe that the drug, per se, is the reason people stay on the drug? It's the high. People choose to change reality to suit their desires. That's the addiction, mysticism. You've got it, too, if you continue to ignore the reality of the drug situation. It is so much more involved than what the drug czars say. They're bald-faced liars and their actions show that they don't give a damn about users.




I'm from the drug generation, man, so I know plenty of people who---and this wording is important---people who HAVE DESTROYED THEIR OWN LIVES BY CHOOSING TO ABUSE DRUGS. To blame the drug is to divert personal responsibility, the flip-side of the liberty coin. This is just one of the dangerous distortions that must be propagated when people use force to make others live to their standards. The whole drug war is filled with them.

Young people, maybe moreso than adults, need to know the truth. They must defend themselves against peer pressure, stupid adults, and dangerous laws and drug abuse. Bogus programs, such as D.A.R.E., Just Say No, etc. actually make the drug abuse problems worse. Young people are not stupid. They hear the lies and then see that adults function on drugs just fine. "How can this be" they ask? "They lied about pot, they're probably lying about speed, too. I think I'll try it." THAT is the danger: lies about the whole situation. No one can make intelligent decisions when s/he doesn't have the facts. URL=Young people and drugs] are used as a political tool by the dishonest elite intent on holding onto power, even if children die.

I'm hooked on liberty and with this sickening, unnecessary debate, I'm Jonesin' right now.

Jeff Livingston


Jeff please explain to me where you get the idea that you are on the 'inside' of knowledge on the world of drugs over a 24 year old guy who's been around all of the hard street drugs since high school? In your generation drugs were MUCH less potent than they are now, and consequently much less dangerous, allthough I'm sure you had firsthand experience of what they can do to people. My point is whatever first hand experience you've had with these drugs, I've got more.

Now let me fill you in on what I know about narcotics abuse. The doctor you quoted who believes heroin addiction is overrated, and would rather have his own sibling addicted to heroin instead of alcohol, because on heroin you can still hold a job, etc. What a bunch of BULLSHIT!!!

You make it sound as though heroin addiction is rather easy to overcome!! Do you have any clue how many people are severely addicted to narcotic pain pills? Vicodin, Oxycontin, Codeine, and dozens of other types of PILLS? Do you have ANY CLUE how devastating a two or three yearlong addiction to vicodin can be?

I suffer from chronic back pain after an injury in the military, and I got hooked on vicodin for 4 months, so I learned all about all kinds of narcotics abuse. Of course we all know that if you stop taking these pain pills abruptly you get severe withdrawal symptoms similar to that of heroin, but on a milder scale. They last up to two weeks, so people end up going to detox so they don't have to endure the withdrawal symptoms. You get detoxed, and for 6 months to A YEAR, you deal with extremely restless legs, insomnia, severe chills like a constant fever, and many other symptoms. Why? Because they are opiates, they stay in your BONES for months and months even if you are detoxed.

So I've just talked about pain pills, what does this have to do with Heroin? It's an opiate, the strongest of all narcotics, with morphine and oxycontin just one or two steps below it's potency. When you are addicted to heroin, you are BEYOND FUCKED. The drug envelopes your entire life. You cannot take care of a family on that drug. The only reason a heroin addict can hold a job is because the addict's sole purpose of living is for the next high. Necessities such as paying rent, eating, taking care of a family, etc., escape the addict because although those problems can be extremely stressful to the user, when they shoot up those problems disappear, everything doesn't matter. Their high fades away and reality strikes again, so they shoot up again.

In the meanwhile, the addict's own body creates an ever-growing tolerance to the drug, so after time a normal doseage doesn't have the same strong effects, so more and more is used to counter that. While this is happening the mind and body are absorbing all of the powerful negative psychological and physical effects of the drug. Heroin addicts become so developed as drug users that there is almost no going back, and over time it becomes visually apparent the ravages the drugs effects have taken on the body of a user.

Like narcotic pain meds, they can go to detox for heroin for a few weeks, but they can feel powerful withdrawal effects for over a year after detoxing. Aside from the physical ailments of heroin withdrawal, the psychological can be just as bad. Severe depression, anxiety attacks, suicidal tendencies, etc COMBINED with the physical ailments usually cause the ex-addict to go back to the drug. The body never forgets self medication.

Ok, as for meth. When I was 18 I had a group of four close friends and we were all potheads. One of my friends got introduced to crystal meth by another one of his friends. The drug had a different name back then and since I thought that speed could only be snorted I didn't think that it was meth he was using. Nevertheless I avoided using the drug even though it was tempting, but my three other close friends tried it.

Over the next two years I saw the effects of this drug and the complete transformation my four friends suffered as a result. They all turned into violent, paranoid criminals. They would get into constant arguments about who took too many hits and didn't leave any for the next person, sometimes the arguments turned violent. When I learned what the drug really was it was too late to help any of them.

These guys were never criminals before the drug, and all of a sudden they started robbing houses and stealing cars to support their drug habits. Eventually they all even split up as friends, each of them finding their own friends who used the drug. One died in a car accident because he stayed up for nearly a week on meth and tried driving from LA to San Diego in that state of mind. Another one disappeared and nobody knows what happened to him, we don't know if he's dead or alive or if his parents deported him to his home country.

My other two friends who were my closest friends of the group, one is serving a life sentence in prison for his third strike, after being caught for something like 20 GTA's and over $100,000 in stolen electronic equipment. All of this to support a drug habit. A friend of mine who was cellmates with him for a short period of time told me that he still finds a way to use the drug in prison and that meth has fried his mind to the point that he is a paranoid schizophrenic who trusts noone. My other close friend was caught by his father with a large stash of crystal meth forced him to clean up his act, basically put him under house arrest, and got him to join the Marines. Now he's in Iraq. Out of these friends the only one I still remain friends with is the one in Iraq and the last time I saw him he tells me that he still gets cravings for the drug here and there. Amazing. If you don't believe me about meth being the worst drug epidemic, go look on the cover of Newsweek. It's the worst ever.

There is no 'smart way to use' any of these drugs, none of them can be used in moderation, and there are no good benefits for using them every once in a while. You feel so good when you take them your body and mind NEVER, EVER forgets it. You think you can control it since you didn't get hooked the first time, but you don't realize that those are the thoughts of an addict. The ONLY WAY you are not an addict or potential addict, is if you try a drug, AND YOU DON'T LIKE HOW IT FEELS. For example, some people have tried ecstasy for the first time and they had a negative reaction to it, so they end up never using it again. Although ecstasy is not physically addictive, and mainly psychological, most people who use ecstasy for the first time and like how it feels end up using it multiple times thereafter. Sadly Jeff it's the people like you who think they are a higher intellect above everyone else that become the worst drug addicts. If you really think you can control it, you are stupid. Every single fucking addict in the world THOUGHT THE SAME EXACT WAY AS YOU DO, AND NOW LOOK AT THEM. They said the same exact things that you're saying, and now they are screwed for life. And yes, it is the DRUG, the drug addiction is a disease, you can ONLY blame the person for TRYING the drug. Everything that happens after that IS the drug. Wake up dude, this ain't the 60's...
 
LastTwo said:
Jeff please explain to me where you get the idea that you are on the 'inside' of knowledge on the world of drugs over a 24 year old guy who's been around all of the hard street drugs since high school? In your generation drugs were MUCH less potent than they are now, and consequently much less dangerous, allthough I'm sure you had firsthand experience of what they can do to people. My point is whatever first hand experience you've had with these drugs, I've got more.

Now let me fill you in on what I know about narcotics abuse. (snip)

. Wake up dude, this ain't the 60's...

You didn't refute any of the FACTS I produced. You dismissed a great Doctor who has more knowledge than either one of us ever will. You used anecdotal evidence as if it is universally true. You PRETEND that you know what I've done and seen in my life and you know you've done more than I concerning this subject. And more.

You have engaged in the EXACT same behavior as drug abusers who rationalize their use with dishonest, misleading statements.

Shall we look at the facts or not? I will and I will integrate them as fully as possible.

As for your specific rantings about meth, since this is the subject of this thread, read this article that just appeared in Slate, by the editor, Jack Shafer. Here's an excerpt:


Pharmaceutical companies produced 3.5 billion legal tablets of various amphetamines in 1958, enough to supply every American with 20 standard doses (5 to 15 milligrams) a year. Those pills were potentially just as addictive and potentially just as deadly as the meth found on the street today. Less than a decade later, annual production of pharmaceutical amphetamines had climbed to 8 billion tablets, and by 1971 it topped 12 billion. These quantities far exceeded the amount needed for the then-approved medical uses of amphetamines in treatment of narcolepsy, obesity, depression, fatigue, anxiety, and hyperkinetic children.

Where did all those amphetamines go? For starters, script doctors over-prescribed the drugs. One well-known and avid consumer of legal amphetamines was President John Kennedy. When users (and dealers) couldn't obtain a doctor's prescription, they would divert the drugs from legal channels—stealing them, forging prescriptions, setting up fraudulent companies and ordering them from the source, or smuggling them across the border. Use was so prevalent that a 1964 study in Oklahoma City (population 300,000) identified 5,000 individuals who got amphetamines and barbiturates (downers) through illegal sources.


Enjoy and thanks for responding,

Jeff Livingston
 
Travis Bickle said:
You don't have kids, right?

I used to say this kind of thing, too, but I've come to the conclusion that while I appreciate an idealistic view of personal liberty and our poor abused Constitution, there are some things that most folks just can't handle. Especially kids, but also the large proportion of dopes among us.

In those cases in the which the medicine is way too strong, I think some governmental in loco parentis is the lesser of two evils. Which drugs to ban? Alcohol is manageable for most, though more has to be done to stop DWI deaths. And no doubt the feds exaggerate the dangers of pot. But coke, heroin, meth? The harm those users do to everybody who crosses their path is too much for any sane society to tolerate.

First, please read the article that I posted in my response to Last Two.

As for taking away OTHER PEOPLE's rights for YOUR children's safety, that is pure crap and will never work. Your children's chances of suffering are much higher coming from governemnts than all the drugs in the world. Last century, govts. killed over 200,000,000 individuals. If your kids can't handle the exposure to drugs, then they need to know how asap, thus they need the truth, not emotional-based propaganda. This subject is too important to leave to chance.

You mentioned the harm those users do to everybody who crosses their path. There are already just and objective laws against those harms. Diverting attention and resources to a non-crime only makes that problem worse, not better.

Thanks and take care of those kids,

Jeff Livingston
 
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