Us 10 ball Why the single elimination finals?

[trob]

The us 10 ball went from a race to 9 double elimination to a single race to 13 in the final. Why is this becoming the norm?
I understand when there are time restraints trying to finish up a tournament but they finished yesterday down to the finals and and played the finals today. There are no time issues. It always seems to help the player coming from the 1 loss side especially when your finishing the tournament the same day and the player from the 1 loss side comes in all warmed up while you’ve been getting cold in the hot seat. So at least that isn’t an issue here but he still should have to beat Shane twice. before anyone thinks that this isn’t an advantage for the 1 loss side player I don’t know anyone from that side if asked do you want to play 1 long race or have to beat him twice .. everyone is saying that 1 long race lol

Also I’m not talking about modified double elimination where it goes to that when you get down to the last 32 . For whatever reason that doesn’t bother me as much as this.

 

[sjm]

True double elimination has become a bit of a dinosaur in our sport, and thankfully so. It's not unfair to have a single extended race, as all players know that earning the hot seat means less in this format.

As for the fans, a final of such indeterminate length is always a bother. The fact that there was only one match played total is irrelevant, as format must be disclosed in the players meeting before every event. It can't be changed mid-tournament.

 

[nine_ball6970]

The us 10 ball went from a race to 9 double elimination to a single race to 13 in the final. Why is this becoming the norm?
I understand when there are time restraints trying to finish up a tournament but they finished yesterday down to the finals and and played the finals today. There are no time issues. It always seems to help the player coming from the 1 loss side especially when your finishing the tournament the same day and the player from the 1 loss side comes in all warmed up while you’ve been getting cold in the hot seat. So at least that isn’t an issue here but he still should have to beat Shane twice. before anyone thinks that this isn’t an advantage for the 1 loss side player I don’t know anyone from that side if asked do you want to play 1 long race or have to beat him twice .. everyone is saying that 1 long race lol

Also I’m not talking about modified double elimination where it goes to that when you get down to the last 32 . For whatever reason that doesn’t bother me as much as this.

I am pretty sure they said the finals would be a race to 13 before the tournament even started. You could say there was a time issue since it was supposed to finish last night. They can't just change it to double elimination because they decided to play the finals the next day.

 

[TrxR]

Time constraints probably. Shane had to jump right from winning the 10 ball onto a table against Albin in 8 ball.

 

[AtLarge]

... It always seems to help the player coming from the 1 loss side especially when your finishing the tournament the same day and the player from the 1 loss side comes in all warmed up while you’ve been getting cold in the hot seat. ...

I have readily available stats on this for only two events, and the stats go in different directions.

The last US Open 9-Ball event that was double elimination all the way until the finals was the 2017 event. For the 29 events from 1989 through 2017, 21 (72%) of the winners were from the undefeated side.

All 38 of the Turning Stone events held so far were double elimination all the way until the finals. 16 (42%) of the winners were from the undefeated side.

And for those two events combined, we have 37 of 67 (55%) winners from the undefeated side.

 

[Bob Jewett]

True double elimination has become a bit of a dinosaur in our sport, and thankfully so. ..

TDE is especially obnoxious in local tournaments that run into the wee hours.

I've been told that one of the main reasons ABC stopped doing pool tournaments is because of double elimination. They would be there to tape/film the finals but many times they ended up with two finals so they had to discard the first one.

I think double elimination is sort of OK in groups of four or eight to weed out the field by a factor of two or four, but after than events should be single elimination.

It is unfortunate that pool ever started using double elimination. I think it's a horrible format. I believe it came in with the BCA US Open in the 1960s.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Double elimination finals should be banned! Anti-climatic. Takes forever. Confusing for casual viewers.

Put me down for eliminating double elimination in the early rounds too. Or at minimum, double elimination only until about 1/2 or 1/4 of the field remains, then single elimination.

 

[trob]

TDE is especially obnoxious in local tournaments that run into the wee hours.

I've been told that one of the main reasons ABC stopped doing pool tournaments is because of double elimination. They would be there to tape/film the finals but many times they ended up with two finals so they had to discard the first one.

I think double elimination is sort of OK in groups of four or eight to weed out the field by a factor of two or eight, but after than events should be single elimination.

It is unfortunate that pool ever started using double elimination. I think it's a horrible format. I believe it came in with the BCA US Open in the 1960s.

I get that. I do like the modified double elimination.

 

[trob]

Double elimination finals should be banned! Anti-climatic. Takes forever. Confusing for casual viewers.

Put me down for eliminating double elimination in the early rounds too. Or at minimum, double elimination only until about 1/2 or 1/4 of the field remains, then single elimination.

Yup. Modified double elimination is what I think all the matchroom events are. I’m cool with that. I just don’t like doing it the whole way to the finals then changing it. Donut or don’t lol

 

[trob]

True double elimination has become a bit of a dinosaur in our sport, and thankfully so. It's not unfair to have a single extended race, as all players know that earning the hot seat means less in this format.

As for the fans, a final of such indeterminate length is always a bother. The fact that there was only one match played total is irrelevant, as format must be disclosed in the players meeting before every event. It can't be changed mid-tournament.

Again the simple question. If your on the losers bracket and asked do you want to play one long race or two short ones. You would always take the one long race. Not to mention as I’ve said your all warmed up from playing non stop and the guy in the hot seat hasn’t played in 2 hours. Doesn’t make sense to me. Again I think the answer is the modified double more then double until the finals then change it.

 

[nine_ball6970]

Again the simple question. If your on the losers bracket and asked do you want to play one long race or two short ones. You would always take the one long race. Not to mention as I’ve said your all warmed up from playing non stop and the guy in the hot seat hasn’t played in 2 hours. Doesn’t make sense to me. Again I think the answer is the modified double more then double until the finals then change it.

Wiktor zelinski talked about this last night when asked if he would rather keep playing to get to the finals or be in the hot seat. He said it doesn't matter to him. He just plays. Maybe some players need to have that momentum to play well whereas others just bring their A game to any match they play.

 

[sjm]

Again the simple question. If your on the losers bracket and asked do you want to play one long race or two short ones. You would always take the one long race. Not to mention as I’ve said your all warmed up from playing non stop and the guy in the hot seat hasn’t played in 2 hours. Doesn’t make sense to me. Again I think the answer is the modified double more then double until the finals then change it.

The holder of the hot seat can practice for the length of their wait if they choose, so this doesn't matter. There is no reason of any kind for true double elimination finals, but a few event producers persist with them. The disservice is to the fans and to those who produce and watch the streams.

Changing from double elimination to single occurs in almost every major championship in both Matchroom and WPA play, and it's also the norm in Euro-tour events. It's what the players are accustomed to in all important events.

Independent events (Derby City, for example) can do as they please, but they are niche events, not mainstream events.

Heaven forbid that true double elimination should ever come back from the dead. Win or go home matches are the ones that get fans most excited.

 

[trob]

Time constraints probably. Shane had to jump right from winning the 10 ball onto a table against Albin in 8 ball.

Maybe .. I know at tournament like sbx coming up that was a problem . The tournament is usually one of the last done on sunday as it is.

 

[trob]

The holder of the hot seat can practice for the length of their wait if they choose, so this doesn't matter. There is no reason of any kind for true double elimination finals, but a few event producers persist with them. The disservice is to the fans and to those who produce and watch the streams.

Changing from double elimination to single occurs in almost every major championship in both Matchroom and WPA play, and it's also the norm in Euro-tour events. It's what the players are accustomed to in all important events.

Independent events (Derby City, for example) can do as they please, but they are niche events, not mainstream events.

Heaven forbid that true double elimination should ever come back from the dead. Win or go home matches are the ones that get fans most excited.

not the same as actually playing in a match against people. Theres no possible way you can swing it as it doesn’t favor the player coming from the loser side.

Let me be clear I agree double elimination is too much. My problem is having an entire tournament double elimination except the finals. do or don’t do it lol but I think a good compromise is modified double.

Here’s another side you may not be thinking of. Last year the expo went to playing the best out of 3 sets even for the pro’s single elimination and the turn out was terrible. If your a pro playing off your own dime and you have to make the top 15 just to maybe break even a single elimination tournament is going to get crossed of your list. It makes it twice as hard to make the money and even thought pro’s have been doing better then they have in a long time they still can’t afford to risk a couple grand on a single elimination tournament When double or modified doubles still exist.

 

[Dimeball]

I keep reading comments here about the fans, which I believe is backwards mostly... let's see, one extended race vs true double elimination...
First let's define "fans of pool".

1. This forum is proof enough that the vast majority of pool fans are fans of certain players equally or more so than to the game. I don't think this can be argued in any way, there's still hangers on of Mosconi, Fats, Red, Efren, etc, to name a few... these are fans of the player for whatever reason, era, country, whatever...

2. The true pure fan of the game, in today's world, rotation play, banks and one pocket fans.

So, by definition above, there's only two questions... do you want to see more of your favorite player and have them have them be treated equally, "you lost one and still get to play, what did I do wrong, beat everyone :/ "? Secondly, do you want to see more good pool, which the final of any major will without doubt provide...

by simple logic, pool fans would rather see true double elimination = more high quality play.

The alternate would be single elimination all the way through. Hell, why not, seems the game is copying tennis play more and more...
Have a nice day kids.

 

[Taxi]

TDE is especially obnoxious in local tournaments that run into the wee hours.

I like single elimination for the final 16 in pro events, but since our local tournament is 8 ball / winners bracket, 9 ball / losers bracket, until they change it to 9 ball only I'm always going to favor double elimination. Did I mention that I hate 8 ball?

 

[nine_ball6970]

I keep reading comments here about the fans, which I believe is backwards mostly... let's see, one extended race vs true double elimination...
First let's define "fans of pool".

1. This forum is proof enough that the vast majority of pool fans are fans of certain players equally or more so than to the game. I don't think this can be argued in any way, there's still hangers on of Mosconi, Fats, Red, Efren, etc, to name a few... these are fans of the player for whatever reason, era, country, whatever...

2. The true pure fan of the game, in today's world, rotation play, banks and one pocket fans.

So, by definition above, there's only two questions... do you want to see more of your favorite player and have them have them be treated equally, "you lost one and still get to play, what did I do wrong, beat everyone :/ "? Secondly, do you want to see more good pool, which the final of any major will without doubt provide...

by simple logic, pool fans would rather see true double elimination = more high quality play.

The alternate would be single elimination all the way through. Hell, why not, seems the game is copying tennis play more and more...
Have a nice day kids.

Typically the finals of most tournaments happen when most pool fans are sleeping anyway if they are in the same country as the tournament. I think that most players are exhausted at that point as well and may not give their best performance in a true double elimination final if it goes to a second set.

Even in smaller tournaments when it is late, most people split instead of playing out around here when it is double elimination.

 

[CaptainBly]

What fans? The same 1 or 2 thousand that watch the streams?
Single elem in the finals is nothing new. Been done that way for years. The OP really seems to have a major problem with this weeks tournaments at Griffs. Funny, the players all seem to love it and are having a great time! There have been a lot of live interviews with them. I haven't seen so many smiles and joking around anywhere else. I love weeks like this and the Derby, nice change up from the Matchroom events. Not a knock on Matchroom, They are doing great things for the sport. Other than the purple 5 ball.

 

[Rocket354]

I think there's competing concepts here: one of fairness, and the other of entertainment. By fairness, if a tournament is double-elimination, then it should be that way all the way through, including the final(s). But for entertainment value (and time constraints) I can see how a single finals is preferred.

I think if players are still against single-elimination, an option would be instead of having a DE stage following by an SE stage (which still seems "unfair") is to have a round-robin stage followed by the top 20-40% of players moving on to a single-elimination bracket.

 

[JolietJames]

Single elimination start to finish.
The losers can gamble all comers or each other until the event is complete.
No long delays waiting for the back draw to catch up, every match is for your tournament life, etc.
Much better format imo.