US Ivory Ban ( New )
- Thread starter Balabushka_Man
- Start date
A few years ago I sold a Scruggs which got an immediate offer from Hong Kong. I refused because I couldn't guarantee shipment because it had ivory ferrules and an ivory Hoppe ring.
If I can't guarantee they will receive it I just can't take the money. Of course I had like 3 offers in the first hour so it wasn't hard to turn it down.
If I can't guarantee they will receive it I just can't take the money. Of course I had like 3 offers in the first hour so it wasn't hard to turn it down.
Fish and Wildlife said they spoke to Bruehl in the run up to its decision and “we found his $11.9 billion estimate … to be speculative in nature.” The agency said its own economic analysis, conducted as part of the rulemaking, estimated the impact “to be well under $100 million.”
$100M is not even close. F*ck the government.
$100M is not even close. F*ck the government.
So any amount of ivory in a cue coming in will be confiscated?
** To qualify for the de minimis exception, manufactured or handcrafted items must meet all of the following
criteria:
(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use;
(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;
(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 percent of the value of the item;
(iv) The ivory is not raw;
(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the
ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 percent of the item by
volume;
(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams; and (vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before the effective date of this rule.
Seems like this would apply to almost all pool cues, ivory handled monsters maybe not (even if there isn't that much ivory in them, it looks like there is and would be tough to prove otherwise).
Not sure how one would prove when the item was made and especially when the ivory was attained that is in it, but this does seem to provide for the sale of existing cues with ivory. At least I hope.
New cues with ivory however would not meet the exemption. So this could be the end to ivory in new cues unless done quietly and intrastate. Or for those buyer and makers willing to risk it anyway, which I'm sure will happen as I don't see them starting to open and inspect interstate shipments all of a sudden. But still, we'll see a lot less ivory going forward I'm sure.
criteria:
(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use;
(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;
(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 percent of the value of the item;
(iv) The ivory is not raw;
(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the
ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 percent of the item by
volume;
(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams; and (vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before the effective date of this rule.
Seems like this would apply to almost all pool cues, ivory handled monsters maybe not (even if there isn't that much ivory in them, it looks like there is and would be tough to prove otherwise).
Not sure how one would prove when the item was made and especially when the ivory was attained that is in it, but this does seem to provide for the sale of existing cues with ivory. At least I hope.
New cues with ivory however would not meet the exemption. So this could be the end to ivory in new cues unless done quietly and intrastate. Or for those buyer and makers willing to risk it anyway, which I'm sure will happen as I don't see them starting to open and inspect interstate shipments all of a sudden. But still, we'll see a lot less ivory going forward I'm sure.
The problem is proving when/where the ivory came from. In most cases there will not be sufficient paperwork to prove the age of the ivory, therefore no legal sale. Once the ivory is cut and installed in the cue how does one prove where it came from? Proving would be more costly than most items would be worth and without documentation... impossible.
Definitely liberal embellishment like the 1500 dollar per pound market value. Hopefully we can get liberal bone inlays and bring them close to extinction. 
JV
JV
Poor,
Cue components / Atlas & etc!
Get stuck with unfinished inventory that is useless!!!
More importantly, they can't sell "Any" of it! Thus, they loss their entire investment in the item. I envision some super sales in the very near future.
Very sad news for these businesses
KD
Cue components / Atlas & etc!
Get stuck with unfinished inventory that is useless!!!
More importantly, they can't sell "Any" of it! Thus, they loss their entire investment in the item. I envision some super sales in the very near future.
Very sad news for these businesses
KD
These companies knew of the ivory taboo but invested anyway.
These two companies have added to the illegality of ivory by knowingly and willingly making illegal sales.
Surely you're not proposing some sort of sympathy for 'these two companies'.
Karma works in mysterious ways. They get what they deserve. Sad.
These two companies have added to the illegality of ivory by knowingly and willingly making illegal sales.
Surely you're not proposing some sort of sympathy for 'these two companies'.
Karma works in mysterious ways. They get what they deserve. Sad.
Work around is to sell the butt and then Gift the shafts per the rules and regulations.
Prices on (chalk or etc) might get inflated and accompanied by a small ivory gift! "HINT HINT HINT"
"Can I donate or give away ivory?
Yes. This ESA 4(d) rule and other federal wildlife laws and regulations such as CITES, the ESA, and the AfECA do not prohibit donating or giving away your ivory specimen, or receiving an ivory
item as a donation or a gift, provided it was lawfully acquired and there is no exchange for other goods or services involved. We recommend that you provide the recipient with any records or documentation you have that demonstrates the origin and chain of ownership of the items. Check to make sure that you are also in compliance with local and state laws."
http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/questions-and-answers-african-elephant-4d-final-rule.pdf
Additional info
What is the de minimis exemption?
The final rule provides an exemption from prohibitions on selling or offering for sale in interstate and foreign commerce for certain manufactured items that contain a small (de minimis) amount of ivory that meet the following conditions:
A. If the item is located in the United States, the ivory must have been imported prior to January 18, 1990, or imported under a CITES pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use.
B. If the item is located outside of the United States, the ivory must have been removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976.
C. The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured item and is not the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 percent of the value of the item.
D. The ivory is not raw.
E. The manufactured item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or
components do not account for more than 50 percent of the item by volume.
F. The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams.
G. The item must have been manufactured before the effective date of the final rule.
What types of items are likely to qualify for the de minimis exception?
When we proposed the 200-gram limit we had a particular suite of items in mind. The following types of items may qualify for the de minimis exception: many musical instruments (including many keyboard instruments, with ivory keys, most stringed instruments and bows with ivory parts or decorations, and many bagpipes, bassoons and other wind instruments with ivory trim); most knives and guns with ivory grips; and certain household and decorative items (including teapots with ivory insulators, measuring tools with ivory parts or trim, baskets with ivory trim, walking sticks and canes with ivory decorations, and many furniture pieces with ivory inlay, etc.). However, to qualify for the de minimis exception, all of the above criteria must be met (either A or B and C- G).
What types of items are not likely to qualify for the de minimis exception?
Examples of items that we do not expect would qualify for the de minimis exception include chess sets with ivory chess pieces (both because we would not consider the pieces to be fixed or integral components of a larger manufactured item and because the ivory would likely be the primary source of value of the chess set), an ivory carving on a wooden base (both because it would likely be
primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value), and ivory earrings or a pendant with metal fittings (again both because they would likely be primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value).
Based on the items mentioned in the "ALLOWED" section. the decorative inlays and trim work found in pool cues is allowed. I don't think the ivory handled cues are though because they approach the 50% volume and weight regulations.
KD
Prices on (chalk or etc) might get inflated and accompanied by a small ivory gift! "HINT HINT HINT"
"Can I donate or give away ivory?
Yes. This ESA 4(d) rule and other federal wildlife laws and regulations such as CITES, the ESA, and the AfECA do not prohibit donating or giving away your ivory specimen, or receiving an ivory
item as a donation or a gift, provided it was lawfully acquired and there is no exchange for other goods or services involved. We recommend that you provide the recipient with any records or documentation you have that demonstrates the origin and chain of ownership of the items. Check to make sure that you are also in compliance with local and state laws."
http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/questions-and-answers-african-elephant-4d-final-rule.pdf
Additional info
What is the de minimis exemption?
The final rule provides an exemption from prohibitions on selling or offering for sale in interstate and foreign commerce for certain manufactured items that contain a small (de minimis) amount of ivory that meet the following conditions:
A. If the item is located in the United States, the ivory must have been imported prior to January 18, 1990, or imported under a CITES pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use.
B. If the item is located outside of the United States, the ivory must have been removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976.
C. The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured item and is not the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 percent of the value of the item.
D. The ivory is not raw.
E. The manufactured item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or
components do not account for more than 50 percent of the item by volume.
F. The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams.
G. The item must have been manufactured before the effective date of the final rule.
What types of items are likely to qualify for the de minimis exception?
When we proposed the 200-gram limit we had a particular suite of items in mind. The following types of items may qualify for the de minimis exception: many musical instruments (including many keyboard instruments, with ivory keys, most stringed instruments and bows with ivory parts or decorations, and many bagpipes, bassoons and other wind instruments with ivory trim); most knives and guns with ivory grips; and certain household and decorative items (including teapots with ivory insulators, measuring tools with ivory parts or trim, baskets with ivory trim, walking sticks and canes with ivory decorations, and many furniture pieces with ivory inlay, etc.). However, to qualify for the de minimis exception, all of the above criteria must be met (either A or B and C- G).
What types of items are not likely to qualify for the de minimis exception?
Examples of items that we do not expect would qualify for the de minimis exception include chess sets with ivory chess pieces (both because we would not consider the pieces to be fixed or integral components of a larger manufactured item and because the ivory would likely be the primary source of value of the chess set), an ivory carving on a wooden base (both because it would likely be
primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value), and ivory earrings or a pendant with metal fittings (again both because they would likely be primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value).
Based on the items mentioned in the "ALLOWED" section. the decorative inlays and trim work found in pool cues is allowed. I don't think the ivory handled cues are though because they approach the 50% volume and weight regulations.
KD
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I was told by two senior officials & the head biologist at CA Fish & Wildlife about how they detect ivory in a cue.
Their answer was that ivory cannot be determined to be legal or illegal without actually sampling the actual ivory in the pool cue which is analyzed for age
If the ivory is old (pre-ban 1978 ivory), the cue is fine but unfortunately samples are taken by taking core samples on the inlays, ferrules, cue joint, etc.
The sampling is pretty much all of the ivory in the cue since some might be legal and some could be illegal. If the cue's ivory is determined to be legal, the
cue would be returned to its owner.....looking like Swiss cheese from all of the drill holes......and there is zero liability on the part of the inspecting agency for
destruction of your personal property.
The laws are pretty stupidly conceived and in CA, the ban is being challenged on the basis of ex post facto enactment which is against the US Constitution.
Meanwhile, cue buyers, cue-makers and cue owners all suffer.......look at what's in my small collection.......the value is undermined by passage of laws that will
ultimately judged to be unconstitutional and thus changed or rescinded.
Meanwhile, I am still willing to add more ivory laden cues to my repertoire because the US Constitution is clear about ex post facto and the solution is by registering
trades people and regulating the sale of legal ivory instead of banning what's been in the good old USA long before the first ban was ever even conceived of 40 years ago.
Thank goodness I was able to assemble my collection now because it only becomes even more special for me and eventually, my children.
Matt B.
Their answer was that ivory cannot be determined to be legal or illegal without actually sampling the actual ivory in the pool cue which is analyzed for age
If the ivory is old (pre-ban 1978 ivory), the cue is fine but unfortunately samples are taken by taking core samples on the inlays, ferrules, cue joint, etc.
The sampling is pretty much all of the ivory in the cue since some might be legal and some could be illegal. If the cue's ivory is determined to be legal, the
cue would be returned to its owner.....looking like Swiss cheese from all of the drill holes......and there is zero liability on the part of the inspecting agency for
destruction of your personal property.
The laws are pretty stupidly conceived and in CA, the ban is being challenged on the basis of ex post facto enactment which is against the US Constitution.
Meanwhile, cue buyers, cue-makers and cue owners all suffer.......look at what's in my small collection.......the value is undermined by passage of laws that will
ultimately judged to be unconstitutional and thus changed or rescinded.
Meanwhile, I am still willing to add more ivory laden cues to my repertoire because the US Constitution is clear about ex post facto and the solution is by registering
trades people and regulating the sale of legal ivory instead of banning what's been in the good old USA long before the first ban was ever even conceived of 40 years ago.
Thank goodness I was able to assemble my collection now because it only becomes even more special for me and eventually, my children.
Matt B.
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These laws are bullshit and won't have any effect on poaching,
lets start banning politicians who propose or support this shit.
lets start banning politicians who propose or support this shit.
So can I take my cue with an ivory bumperless butt cap with me across the border and back or not
That is a great question and the powers that be should address it now. I would think a weight per size inlay using calipers. Figure most Butts weigh around 15 to 16 oz so around 1/2 the butt would need to be solid ivory for the 7 oz
This begs the question of how much does a typical joint and butt cap weigh? A typical handle section?
Across which border?
There are bound to buyers on the other side of the border because you can probably leave with the cue but likely as not there would be no returning with it......seems like a pretty big risk to take.....I wouldn't chance it.
In the USA, our northern border is Canada and southern border is Mexico. Absent that, you have to fly or travel by sea to get out of the USA which means ICE & US Customs is in charge.
In the USA, our northern border is Canada and southern border is Mexico. Absent that, you have to fly or travel by sea to get out of the USA which means ICE & US Customs is in charge.
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