USA Mosconi Team

[ShortBusRuss]

Any chance he was just avoiding the American guy who wouldn’t leave him alone?:grin:

Prolly not. I've been at the same tournaments as Shane in Wyoming, Indiana, and now in the Netherlands. He is either extremely shy, or unpersonable (I will assume the former), and after the first time or two trying to engage him in conversation, I stopped trying.

Earl on the other hand, enjoys talking to people, from what I see, and is a hoot to converse with, besides.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Hmmm...ok, if I get it right, you want to say, that the US players play the "wrong" shot more often than the Europeans.
You might be right, but I still have a different view on that matter, just because I think it is difficult to say what is right or wrong, especially on the level this players have.

If a player decides to make a jump shot and misses it, it is hard to tell if it was a bad concept or bad execution. If he would have executed it perfectly, his conception would have been fine.
I think, maybe if a player overestimates his ability in the first place, you could call it an conceptional error...or maybe if he hasn`t the knowledge to see certain shots, escape routes etc..

So I think it is more like having weaker fundamentals, lack of focus or being solid under pressure than making errors in your decision process.

My view of the top tier of American players is that they don't see their opponents as (as dangerous) as they should, and so they tend to default to the style of play they like best, which tends to be shooting, because everyone enjoys running out.

When you don't see your opponents as stone cold killers that need to be treated with the utmost strategical respect, then you aren't gonna give enough mental effort to find the highest percentage play, every single shot.

Americans underneath Shane simply don't get enough tabletime against world class opponents. They tend to play against slightly weaker competition, who they can still win against by making one extra error per match against. I saw this in person at the Eurotour event. I saw Skylar miss a fairly standard out, and I think he still beat his opponent 9-3. Someone like Niels Feijen might very well make you pay for that extra mistake with a loss.

And I will just go ahead and say it.. I think Shane suffers from this a bit as well, but to a much lower extent. I think he starts slow in a lot of matches, and then, when playing against world class competition, can sometimes play lackluster when behind. If the race is long enough, he often wakes up and drills the opponent, but if he played with the same high energy level all the time, he'd have a few world championships by now. No way that Ko Pin Yi and Albin Ouschan are better players than Shane. Shane just doesn't seem to have the same all-the-time killer instinct that Earl had back in the day. Shane seems to have to make an effort to "turn it on", and sometimes he's already significantly behind in the match, and requires his opponent to weaken a bit to let him win the match. (Like Kaci did..)

 

[jasonlaus]

I find this thread amusing for an entirely different reason. When I've done commentary on the MC and remarked how much better Europe's players executed safety's, jump and kick shots, I often get criticized for being Pro Europe. Now here we have a thread where many of us are talking about the same thing and it's all good. Maybe that's why Lou is not on here yet, because I'm not the only one saying these things. :grin:

I've always agreed with that. They get butt hurt cause their team is losing and don't want to hear the truth.
Jason<-----it's my team too, but facts are facts.

 

[sjm]

When you don't see your opponents as stone cold killers that need to be treated with the utmost strategical respect, then you aren't gonna give enough mental effort to find the highest percentage play, every single shot.

While this is true, shouldn't eight straight Mosconi losses be enough to make Team USA view Team Europe as stone cold killers?

Americans underneath Shane simply don't get enough tabletime against world class opponents. They tend to play against slightly weaker competition, who they can still win against by making one extra error per match against.

Very well said! This an important reason why America has fallen behind Europe in the tactical portion of the game, and a case can be made that because of insufficient exposure to the world's premier international players, some Americans have, to some extent, forgotten what the tactical percentages are. The exceptions are the one pocket specialists like Deuel, Thorpe and Bergman, who manage to translate their defensive skills from one pocket to tactical nine ball. Interestingly enough, Team USA vice captain Jeremy Jones also fit into this category when he was at his peak, so perhaps he can help out in this area.

 

[korey]

Prolly not. I've been at the same tournaments as Shane in Wyoming, Indiana, and now in the Netherlands. He is either extremely shy, or unpersonable (I will assume the former), and after the first time or two trying to engage him in conversation, I stopped trying.

Earl on the other hand, enjoys talking to people, from what I see, and is a hoot to converse with, besides.

Maybe if you lacked a key component of communication your process would be altered. He's always been top notch with me.

 

[jay helfert]

Your point is very reasonable that execution and conceptualization are intertwined and it can, at times, be tricky to pinpoint where an erroneous shot went wrong, as a mistake may be caused by poor decision making, poor execution, and sometimes even both. Still, the truth is that there are many situations where what went wrong it is crystal clear.

A simple example in conceptualization error is poor pattern play. A player may play the angle/path to the next ball incorrectly, thereby placing greater emphasis on speed control than would have otherwise been required. Even if exceptional execution leads to a good result, which often happens, an error was made in conceptualization. Such errors add up eventually, and the result is less consistency in running out the kind of racks that the world's best players expect to run. Year after year, Team Europe plays the patterns better than Team USA, choosing the right paths/angles with greater consistency, and it is one of the reasons they do a better job completing the runouts. Choices in pattern play is one of a few areas in which there is a conceptualization gap between Team Europe and Team USA.

THIS is closer to the reality of why Team USA keeps losing. It's a combination of poor shot selection and equally poor execution. It's not just when to play safe as opposed to shooting, as it is how to properly execute the safety or the shot that the player chooses to shoot. The great Jim Rempe once said, "Shot selection is not as important as good execution. If you can execute the shot, then it's the right shot for you."

That said, a player must make his decision based on what he is capable of doing. It's no good to shoot shots that are low percentage for that particular player, as we have often seen happen in the MC. The same goes for safeties, jumps and kick shots. You must be able to execute the shot that you chose. As someone else mentioned on here, only one error in judgement or execution can cost you the match in the MC, and he's right about that.

 

[sjm]

THIS is closer to the reality of why Team USA keeps losing. It's a combination of poor shot selection and equally poor execution. It's not just when to play safe as opposed to shooting, as it is how to properly execute the safety or the shot that the player chooses to shoot. The great Jim Rempe once said, "Shot selection is not as important as good execution. If you can execute the shot, then it's the right shot for you."

That said, a player must make his decision based on what he is capable of doing. It's no good to shoot shots that are low percentage for that particular player, as we have often seen happen in the MC. The same goes for safeties, jumps and kick shots. You must be able to execute the shot that you chose. As someone else mentioned on here, only one error in judgement or execution can cost you the match in the MC, and he's right about that.

I've known Jimmy for 40 years and no wiser man exists in our game. Jimmy's right, especially when it comes to choices of nearly equal merit, and sometimes for choices of unequal merit ..... but if a player must choose too many lower percentage shots because shots that ought to be in their arsenal are not, I'd call that player unprepared for success. In my view Jay, there are also many situations in which a player does not even consider the shot that a situation calls for, due to either poor analytical skills or bad habits.

These are areas in which coaching can make a huge difference. Coaches have the opportunity to review past Mosconi Cup matches with their players and do a post-mortem on some of the choices made to study and develop decision making skills and help pinpoint areas requiring development for each player.

Maybe I'm a tough grader, but I am of the opinion that recent coaches of Team USA have not sufficiently helped with improving decision making skills or with identifying areas in which development is needed. That's why Team USA makes the same exact mistakes Mosconi Cup after Mosconi Cup.

To sum, I agree that there are times when a player must go against the book to stick with their own personal percentages, but there are countless times when it evidences poor preparation. I think our friend Jimmy would agree.

 

[jay helfert]

I've known Jimmy for 40 years and no wiser man exists in our game. Jimmy's right, especially when it comes to choices of nearly equal merit, and sometimes for choices of unequal merit ..... but if a player must choose too many lower percentage shots because shots that ought to be in their arsenal are not, I'd call that player unprepared for success. In my view Jay, there are also many situations in which a player does not even consider the shot that a situation calls for, due to either poor analytical skills or bad habits.

These are areas in which where coaching can make a huge difference. Coaches have the opportunity to review past Mosconi Cup matches with their players and do a post-mortem on some of the choices made to study and develop decision making skills and help pinpoint areas requiring development for each player.

Maybe I'm a tough grader, but I am of the opinion that recent coaches of Team USA have not sufficiently helped with improving decision making skills or with identifying areas in which development is needed. That's why Team USA makes the same exact mistakes Mosconi Cup after Mosconi Cup.

To sum, I agree that there are times when a player must go against the book to stick with their own personal percentages, but there are countless times when it evidences poor preparation. I think our friend Jimmy would agree.

I would love it if one day you and I get to coach this team. Now wouldn't that be something! Two shortstops coaching some of the best players in the USA and leading them to victory. There have been many instances of very average players in various sports becoming great coaches. The first one that comes to mind for me is Tommy Lasorda, the long time coach of the Los Angeles Dodgers. He barely had a cup of coffee in the majors, but he led the Dodgers to many successful seasons and even to winning the World Series.

 

[kollegedave]

SJM,

Of course, you make good points here. Although, I wonder, to what extent the USA players are REALLY amenable to coaching on decision making...or anything for that matter. The decision making process you outline here of taking a tough look at percentages and making your decision based on that does not seem different than the approach I have heard, with my own ears, Mark Wilson advance and defend.

I have a suspicion that USA players listen to their coaches, smile, nod politely, and then they try to draw their ball an run out.

I believe no matter who we send, the team will be an underdog. However, the last few years, particularly the years where the team included SVB, Dechaine, and Bergman, I did not think the USA team was as weak as the score suggested. I wonder to what extent that 11-2 thrashing in England has weighed on the players since then? It does seem to me that Europe, while better at strategy, has the ability to really come with some tough, pivotal, and pressure packed shots, whereas we seem to have way fewer instances of great success that could rally team and spark momentum.

kollegedave

I've known Jimmy for 40 years and no wiser man exists in our game. Jimmy's right, especially when it comes to choices of nearly equal merit, and sometimes for choices of unequal merit ..... but if a player must choose too many lower percentage shots because shots that ought to be in their arsenal are not, I'd call that player unprepared for success. In my view Jay, there are also many situations in which a player does not even consider the shot that a situation calls for, due to either poor analytical skills or bad habits.

These are areas in which coaching can make a huge difference. Coaches have the opportunity to review past Mosconi Cup matches with their players and do a post-mortem on some of the choices made to study and develop decision making skills and help pinpoint areas requiring development for each player.

Maybe I'm a tough grader, but I am of the opinion that recent coaches of Team USA have not sufficiently helped with improving decision making skills or with identifying areas in which development is needed. That's why Team USA makes the same exact mistakes Mosconi Cup after Mosconi Cup.

To sum, I agree that there are times when a player must go against the book to stick with their own personal percentages, but there are countless times when it evidences poor preparation. I think our friend Jimmy would agree.

 

[sjm]

SJM,

Of course, you make good points here. Although, I wonder, to what extent the USA players are REALLY amenable to coaching on decision making...or anything for that matter. The decision making process you outline here of taking a tough look at percentages and making your decision based on that does not seem different than the approach I have heard, with my own ears, Mark Wilson advance and defend. I have a suspicion that USA players listen to their coaches, smile, nod politely, and then they try to draw their ball an run out.

Dave, I think you're missing my point. I am not talking about the process of "analyze then identify the options then evaluate the options then select" or suggesting that we've ever had a coach that didn't advocate this process.

I am, instead, noting that -

1) our players have, far too often, shown poor analytical skills
2) our players, far too often, don't see all of the options
3) even when our players evaluate correctly, they are, far too often, forced to go against the percentages because they lack some critical features in their games

I am further taking note of my opinion that Team Europe is much more solid in each of these three areas. and that, consequently, Team Europe players ENTER the decision making process on firmer footing than Team USA members. This is a big problem that can be addressed. It is a problem that Team USA will need to address before it is viewed as the favorite over Team Europe. Of course, there is a gap in shot execution that must also be addressed, but that's not my focus in this post.

If there has been a coach of Team USA that has tried to address these conceptualization weaknesses, and I don't see any evidence of any kind that this is the case, then they have failed to get their players to make better decisions at the table and to fill in the weaknesses evidenced by some of their decisions in past Mosconi Cups. The result has been a Team USA that makes the exact same errors in every Mosconi in recent memory.

 

[lfigueroa]

Does *anyone* here really think that: under the lights, with all the TV cameras rolling, and with the crowd howling, a single solitary even one USA player standing at the table at the MC is looking at a shot thinking, "Well, Johan told me..."

lol.

Lou Figueroa

 

[sjm]

Does *anyone* here really think that: under the lights, with all the TV cameras rolling, and with the crowd howling, a single solitary even one USA player standing at the table at the MC is looking at a shot thinking, "Well, Johan told me..."

lol.

Lou Figueroa

Exactly right, Lou. The preparation must come before long players arrive at the Mosconi Cup. Instincts will often take over in the heat of battle, but good coaching is the path to making as much of the desired decision process as instinctive as possible. Team Europe's instincts are far better than those of Team America, and there are things the coach of Team USA can do about it, but by the time we get to the event, I'll agree with your suggestion that it's too late.

 

[sjm]

I would love it if one day you and I get to coach this team. Now wouldn't that be something! Two shortstops coaching some of the best players in the USA and leading them to victory. There have been many instances of very average players in various sports becoming great coaches. The first one that comes to mind for me is Tommy Lasorda, the long time coach of the Los Angeles Dodgers. He barely had a cup of coffee in the majors, but he led the Dodgers to many successful seasons and even to winning the World Series.

First and foremost, Jay, thanks for the compliment ---- as far as competition in pro pool, I've had, at most, a demi-tasse. Second, I've reached the point where I need weight from the players I'd rate as shortstops!

Rest assured, Jay, that I have no interest in ever being a member of the coaching staff of Team USA. That said, I know you'd be a superb choice for coach and if you are ever appointed, I'll help you as an unpaid consultant who'd cover all of his expenses and even some of those of the team where practical. I'd happily study past Team USA matches thoroughly and do a presentation (both in writing and in person) to either you, the team, or both on some of the takeaways from a shot design standpoint. I'd make a few recommendations, which you'd be free to either incorporate into your plans or ignore.

Dreaming of the day that you'll be named as our coach, Jay.

 

[jay helfert]

First and foremost, Jay, thanks for the compliment ---- as far as competition in pro pool, I've had, at most, a demi-tasse. Second, I've reached the point where I need weight from the players I'd rate as shortstops!

Rest assured, Jay, that I have no interest in ever being a member of the coaching staff of Team USA. That said, I know you'd be a superb choice for coach and if you are ever appointed, I'll help you as an unpaid consultant who'd cover all of his expenses and even some of those of the team where practical. I'd happily study past Team USA matches thoroughly and do a presentation (both in writing and in person) to either you, the team, or both on some of the takeaways from a shot design standpoint. I'd make a few recommendations, which you'd be free to either incorporate into your plans or ignore.

Dreaming of the day that you'll be named as our coach, Jay.

Thanks Stu! I would first change the mindset of the U.S. players about playing in the MC. Right now, no matter what they are "taught' they need to REALLY believe they can win, and not just be told they can win. There is a way to do this which I won't go into here. But I firmly believe that getting the players to play their best game under pressure is key to everything.

Like you, I think studying videos of past MC matches (they are almost all available on Youtube) is vital. When they can see what worked for the European players and what didn't work for us it would have a much stronger impression than just talking about it. There is a good reason why all major pro sports teams study videos while preparing for upcoming games.

Also we would go over the percentages! Which shots have the greatest chance of success and which shots should be avoided. In my mind there about a half dozen key situations that make all the difference between winning and losing matches. For many years now I've seen Team Europe players make the right choices most of the time and the U.S. players make bad choices many times. One such error can be enough to determine the outcome of the match. That can be cured!

I will give you only one example. In a situation where you need to kick, and making a good hit or a safety is very difficult, I've seen the U.S. players foul time and time again when they fail to hit the ball. Usually it is because they are trying to do too much on the shot. I would emphasize how important it is to just hit the object ball in such a situation. Simply focus on hitting the ball so you don't give up ball in hand. What many players (even good ones) don't understand is that just by hitting the ball there is nearly a 50-50 chance that you won't leave an easy shot. Whereas if you foul, you've almost certainly lost the game. I'll take the 50-50 chance every time in that situation!

That's one of the six or seven common situations that arise in many matches at least once, where we lack the knowledge of the percentages to make the best choice. If I can get through to them here, we will have a chance! And of course, I would emphasize that with this knowledge they have the shooting ability to match up and win against ANYONE!

 

[parvus1202]

From all the comments here, it seems that US player are not fond of each other. To each his own. Very far from Euro and Asian teams where they always joke and have fun.

 

[MGM3]

Usa!!!

Wondering how people enjoy their Crow? I will enjoy reading how some of the so called experts will spin previous comments and predictions.

USA baby!

 

[one stroke]

Exactly right, Lou. The preparation must come before long players arrive at the Mosconi Cup. Instincts will often take over in the heat of battle, but good coaching is the path to making as much of the desired decision process as instinctive as possible. Team Europe's instincts are far better than those of Team America, and there are things the coach of Team USA can do about it, but by the time we get to the event, I'll agree with your suggestion that it's too late.[/QUOTE
The reason why sports Psychologists are used in so many sports is to leave a clear path of thinking not guided by instincts or negative thoughts to stay in the moment and analyze the task at hand and draw off imbedded lessons learned so yes in many cases if taught a player will certainly not even knowing it come to the right conclusion if its been taught to him before hand


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