Use of the term Side English - Opinions Please.

Colin Colenso said:
Please tell me if you think the term side english is required sometimes or should we just use the term english when refering to side spin on the CB?

I have heard the term stop english used. Are there any other uses of the term english, such as draw english or follow english?

All opinions appreciated, unless of course that opinion happens to be that I am an idiot.:grin:

Remember I grew up in a snooker world where we use side on the white pill and proper english when we speak.
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There are so many ways to describe rotation on the cue ball.
Here are some terms describing contact with the cue ball (there are others, but these are fairly common):
Left
Left english
Lef spin
Left side
Lef hand side

Right
Right english
Right spin
Right side
Right hand side

Top / Top spin / Top English
High ball
Forward Spin
Follow
Force Follow

Draw
Bottom / Bottom Spin / Bottom English
Rewind
Back Spin
Low ball
Screw

Here are some spin terms, relative to the object ball or rail:
Inside
Outside
Running
Hold up
Reverse
Slow Down
Back up
Check / Check Side
Top stop

And don't forget combos:
Top left
High right
Bottom right
Low left
etc.


The point is, most pool players will understand what you mean. There is no point in trying to adopt a universal set of definitions for these terms. It's part of the color of pool. Besides, there is no pool grammar police department I know of ;)

-td
 
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Colin Colenso said:
Please tell me if you think the term side english is required sometimes or should we just use the term english when referring to side spin on the CB? ...
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Some writers are aware of the problems of billiard terminology and will use unambiguous terms as much as possible. Others don't seem to see the problems and write confusingly. The term "english" is often unclear, so it is usually better to use some other term.

As an example, there is the dichotomy between "english can mean follow/draw" and "english never means follow/draw." People in the two camps often seem to be unaware that there are two camps, and believe that their use of the word is the only reasonable use.

So, my recommendation would be to to avoid the term "english" except in situations where it clearly refers to side spin by context. At the same time, know that some may use the term differently and be prepared to ask for clarification.
 
In the UK we tend to use "check" side and "running" side a lot,
"i put a lot of check on that shot"
might be a snooker and english 8ball thing.
 
boozebag said:
In the UK we tend to use "check" side and "running" side a lot,
"i put a lot of check on that shot"
might be a snooker and english 8ball thing.
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Have to ask.... Check = Left side ??
Running = Right Side??

ActionHound was the only guy on AZ who uses the word check in an inflammatory way as in, "the check is in the mail". :yes:
joeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Have to ask.... Check = Left side ??
Running = Right Side??

ActionHound was the only guy on AZ who uses the word check in an inflammatory way as in, "the check is in the mail". :yes:
joeyA
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No Joey 'check' and 'running' side don't define left and right side.

In Uk terminology check side is simply the type of cue ball action achieved by hitting the cue ball with the tip below the equator on either side of the vertical centre line. Running side is simply the type of cue ball action achieved by hitting the cue ball higher than the equator on either side of the vertical centre line.
 
to make things very simple I too like the clock method. I just added "max" numbers and "minimum" numbers to the clock.....like this....hit it with max 3oclock, which should be obvious, and minimum 3oclock would be 1tip right o center axis.

there can be no confusion when using a clock....we all tell time the same way! :D
 
pooltchr said:
Colin,
When I'm teaching, I try to avoid the term "english" just for that reason. Right spin, left spin, top spin or bottom spin seem to avoid any confusion in the minds of my students. I explain the term, but rarely use it when giving direction to my students.
Steve
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This is the approach that makes sense to me. The term "English" just confuses things (hence your question). There's no need for it.

pj
chgo
 
In Uk terminology check side is simply the type of cue ball action achieved by hitting the cue ball with the tip below the equator on either side of the vertical centre line. Running side is simply the type of cue ball action achieved by hitting the cue ball higher than the equator on either side of the vertical centre line.
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In the US "check" and "running" are more commonly used to mean sidespin that either slows the ball when it hits a rail (check) or speeds it up when it hits a rail (running). Nothing to do with top or bottom.

pj
chgo
 
I never use the term "side english", but I do say "side spin" when describing rotation on that axis.

When describing hits on the compass points of the ball, I use the terms follow, draw, left english, and right english.

When describing side spin in general (not specifically left or right), I say "side spin".

When describing hits that are not on the compass points, I'll say "high-left" or "low-right", using those terms as nouns (not adding "spin" or "english").

I also use the terms inside and outside english to describe the spin relative to the cut angle (not applicable to straight shots). Also I use the terms running and reverse english to describe the spin relative to the angle into the rail (not applicable if the ball approaches the rail perpendicularly).

So I guess I mix my terminology a bit. It's a little inconsistent, but those are the terms I use, and at least they are unambiguous.

-Andrew
 
Patrick Johnson said:
In the US "check" and "running" are more commonly used to mean sidespin that either slows the ball when it hits a rail (check) or speeds it up when it hits a rail (running). Nothing to do with top or bottom.

pj
chgo
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I've never heard an American pool player use "check"; it's usually "reverse" on this side of the pond. But I agree with your definitions; they only refer to side spin, and only in relation to the angle of the ball into the rail.

-Andrew
 
Patrick Johnson said:
In the US "check" and "running" are more commonly used to mean sidespin that either slows the ball when it hits a rail (check) or speeds it up when it hits a rail (running). Nothing to do with top or bottom.

pj
chgo
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Yes Patrick you're quite right and that's very common in uk too and is mostly what I was trying, admittedly very badly, to express....I didn't describe it very well or very fully at all. I meant the action you want to achieve on the cue ball after hitting a rail but thought that was too obvious to mention. I was in a bit of a rush to give Joey the left/right aspect answer he was looking for.

Fully agree that the slowing down (checking) or the speeding up (running) of the cue ball off the rail by applying side obviously does not necessarily need to include any hitting above or below the equator (unless the cue ball is being played on to the cushion at a 90 degrees angle), but the speeding up or slowing down of the cue ball off the rail can of course always be further influenced by adding that high or low factor to the side being applied no matter how shallow or acute the angle of approach to the cushion.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Some writers are aware of the problems of billiard terminology and will use unambiguous terms as much as possible. Others don't seem to see the problems and write confusingly. The term "english" is often unclear, so it is usually better to use some other term.

As an example, there is the dichotomy between "english can mean follow/draw" and "english never means follow/draw." People in the two camps often seem to be unaware that there are two camps, and believe that their use of the word is the only reasonable use.

So, my recommendation would be to to avoid the term "english" except in situations where it clearly refers to side spin by context. At the same time, know that some may use the term differently and be prepared to ask for clarification.
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Thanks Bob,

That was pretty much exactly the feedback I was looking for. I had picked up on the two camps thing over the years and just wondered how best to deal with it. No easy solution obviously but food for thought.

Cheers,
Colin
 
Patrick Johnson said:
In the US "check" and "running" are more commonly used to mean sidespin that either slows the ball when it hits a rail (check) or speeds it up when it hits a rail (running). Nothing to do with top or bottom.

pj
chgo
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Patrick,

I've also seen check and running defined by the direction to which the CB approaches the rail. So if it approaches at 90 degrees the CB may be considered to have both or neither. There would be situations where the CB has running but doesn't necessarily accelerate upon hitting the rail.

btw: Isn't the term hold up used in preference to check in the US? Do they have a separate term for running?

Also, I've only heard the term 'reverse' side as it 'reverse' to playing draw shots with side spin, such that right side makes the CB deviate left off the rail when it hits it. Does it have that same meaning in the US?

Colin
 
In the US "check" and "running" are more commonly used to mean sidespin that either slows the ball when it hits a rail (check) or speeds it up when it hits a rail (running). Nothing to do with top or bottom.
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I've also seen check and running defined by the direction to which the CB approaches the rail.
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Well, the direction of the sidespin in relation to the direction the CB approaches the rail, yes. That's essentially saying the same thing.

So if it approaches at 90 degrees the CB may be considered to have both or neither.
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I'd say left or right in that case. I don't know how it could be considered to be both.

There would be situations where the CB has running but doesn't necessarily accelerate upon hitting the rail.
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Yes, if the sidespin wasn't fast enough to add speed to the CB's forward movement, but its direction was such that it would add speed if it was spinning fast enough, then it would still be running sidespin. In fact, I suppose the CB could be spinning slow enough that running sidespin could actually slow the CB. It's the direction of spin that's described, not the amount.

btw: Isn't the term hold up used in preference to check in the US?
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Yes, check is recognized as the British term.

Do they have a separate term for running?
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The only other common US term that means the same thing as running (that I know of) is "outside", but that's used to describe sidespin in relation to an OB rather than a rail. Otherwise it means the same thing. (Note: a less common term for running sidespin is "helping" sidespin.)

Also, I've only heard the term 'reverse' side as it 'reverse' to playing draw shots with side spin, such that right side makes the CB deviate left off the rail when it hits it. Does it have that same meaning in the US?
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No, I don't think we have a term specifically for that. I mostly hear "reverse" used when the CB hits the rail at a steep enough angle that its rebound angle might actually be reversed by the sidespin (if the CB's angle to the rail would normally make it rebound to the right, then reverse sidespin might make it rebound to the left instead).

I've also heard the term "braking" sidespin used to mean the same thing as holdup/check sidespin (where the CB wouldn't actually reverse rebound direction, but would merely slow down and rebound more steeply).

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
In the US "check" and "running" are more commonly used to mean sidespin that either slows the ball when it hits a rail (check) or speeds it up when it hits a rail (running). Nothing to do with top or bottom.

pj
chgo
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Hi Patrick,

You are correct - it is actually the same as you described in snooker.

In snooker "running side" will make the cue-ball bounce off the cushion at a wider angle (speeding it up), and "check side" will narrow the angle at which the cue back rebounds off the cushion (slowing it down).

Regards.

Alan.
 
I am a big fan of the clockface...

hit it half way to one o'clock

get all of the six o'clock

bout 3/4 of the way to 10:30 and your golden..

I find it simply explains to everyone where you intend the tip to contact the cueball.

better players will use smaller units of measure.. it takes a pretty good shot to hit 1:15 consistently... but tell a banger to hit it at 1 o'clock and they will at the very least try to send the tip to the proper part of the cueball.
 
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