Using a "Touch" of outside on cut shots

[Casting 9s]

Lately, I am hearing this talked about a LOT when I go out and play. I like TOI and I have been using it for several years. I "float" the cue ball around with TOI, and I get a lot of comments about it when I'm playing. I keep hearing that I should try a "Touch of outside" on all my cut shots, as it cancels out throw.

So, here is my question:

Whether it is a "Touch of Inside" or "Touch of Outside", is it really even necessary? Why not just slightly adjust for throw using center-ball instead of using a "Touch of anything?". I understand that a "Touch of outside" does cancel out throw, but only if the just the right amount is put on the cue ball. But is that even necessary?

Doesn't it just add another variable, making the shot more complicated than it needs to be? Why not just still use center ball and aim a tick thinner to account for the throw instead of adding side spin, deflection, and curve? What am I missing here?

To clear things up, I'm not talking about adding spin because you need it for position on a particular shot. I'm talking this whole "Touch of outside" for all cut shots to help pocket the ball phenomenon. I've even heard Shane say that he positions himself to use outside on all of his cut shots unless a particular situation calls for inside. I've also heard Mike Siegel, Buddy Hall, and a few others talk about this as well. I watch Corey Deuel a lot and he uses a bit of outside on almost every shot. But none of us are at their level.

I use TOI and have been for a couple of years now, but I don't think it's necessarily needed. I'm just comfortable with it. I like that I can hit the balls fuller with a stroke and still not lose the cue ball after contact; however, I can aim and pocket balls using just the center ball axis just as well. Sometimes I ask myself why I am adding variables when its not necessary.

So, is this just one of those illogical things people do because they've been told they should be doing it, or does it actually provide a tangible edge? Like I was saying, couldn't you achieve the same result just aiming a tad thinner with center-ball to account for throw?

 

[Sheldon]

Aiming is always going to be more instinctual than anything else. Aiming systems simply allow the conscious mind to relax a little, and help create consistency.
None of them ever work by themselves, they have to be learned and adjusted to by the subconscious.
A little bit of spin likely will help lessen skids on softer shots.

 

[Casting 9s]

Aiming is always going to be more instinctual than anything else. Aiming systems simply allow the conscious mind to relax a little, and help create consistency.
None of them ever work by themselves, they have to be learned and adjusted to by the subconscious.
A little bit of spin likely will help lessen skids on softer shots.

I don't really understand this reply as I never talked about any aiming systems...

I'm talking about people using a "touch of outside" on cut shots vs. just accounting for throw when aiming center ball.

 

[Sheldon]

TOI is an aiming system.
If you didn't grasp the point I was making, I'll try again.
No, spinning cut shots with inside or outside is not necessary for making the ball.
Inside, outside, center, all must be learned and practiced for you to have any consistency with them. This is why you're "comfortable" with hitting them with inside english.
Spin might help "cinch" a shot by reducing skids.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it!

 

[boogieman]

I am not an instructor. If I'm cinching a shot I'll often use a bit of outside. I find it more predictable and it feels better. It also "feels" like you're chipping the ball into the outside of the ball, whereas inside with deflection it feels like you're hitting the ball fuller. Say you're cutting a ball to the right. It feels more natural (to me) to deflect a ball by hitting it slightly left and "coming into" the edge of the ball than doing an inside shot and trying to go across the face of it. YMMV, this ain't rocket science.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... I keep hearing that I should try a "Touch of outside" on all my cut shots, as it cancels out throw. ...

A major reason to use some outside on cut shots is to avoid the possibility of skid. Skid is also called cling, kick, or bad contact. Mike Sigel was (is?) a big fan of using outside when possible.

Using a little inside will tend to increase the chance of skid.

If a significant fraction of your misses are due to skids, then you need to do what you can to reduce them. If your average pocketing percentage is under 95% or so, you have other issues to deal with.

Those who argue that you want to add sidespin because you probably won't be able to hit the center of the ball need to think about that more.

 

[Casting 9s]

TOI is an aiming system.
If you didn't grasp the point I was making, I'll try again.
No, spinning cut shots with inside or outside is not necessary for making the ball.
Inside, outside, center, all must be learned and practiced for you to have any consistency with them. This is why you're "comfortable" with hitting them with inside english.
Spin might help "cinch" a shot by reducing skids.
Just my opinion, take it or leave it!

Ok, I see where we lost each other. I don't see TOI as an aiming system. To me, it's just a way to play. It's a parallel cueing shift slightly to the inside, where the inside becomes the new center. I like it because I can let my stroke out and still keep the cue ball under control. There is an aiming element to it, but it's not an aiming system by any means. It's more of a connection system, in where you connect to the object ball above the shot. Then when you get down on the line of the shot you just stroke straight through your new center, and it will create the angle needed.

The benefits of it are that it deadens your cue-ball after contact and it "floats" along the tangent line, and if you are contacting a rail, it will come off straight, making things very predictable.

As far as the aiming though, it's not really anything different than I do when aiming with center-ball. I basically use 3 perception points, the 15-30-45 degree angles you might see in CTE, and then fine tune from there. I've hit so many pool balls its all just kind of automatic at this point. I just trust my subconscious to do the fine adjustments.

I guess my main question still is: Isn't just aiming a tick thinner with center-ball to account for throw just the same as adding a "touch of outside"? Aren't you just trading one variable for another, which also is going to add deflection and curve to the equation? I genuinely could be completely wrong, so I guess I'm just asking for other opinions to see if my thinking is perhaps just wrong on this..?

 

[Island Drive]

Lately, I am hearing this talked about a LOT when I go out and play. I like TOI and I have been using it for several years. I "float" the cue ball around with TOI, and I get a lot of comments about it when I'm playing. I keep hearing that I should try a "Touch of outside" on all my cut shots, as it cancels out throw.

So, here is my question:

Whether it is a "Touch of Inside" or "Touch of Outside", is it really even necessary? Why not just slightly adjust for throw using center-ball instead of using a "Touch of anything?". I understand that a "Touch of outside" does cancel out throw, but only if the just the right amount is put on the cue ball. But is that even necessary?

Doesn't it just add another variable, making the shot more complicated than it needs to be? Why not just still use center ball and aim a tick thinner to account for the throw instead of adding side spin, deflection, and curve? What am I missing here?

To clear things up, I'm not talking about adding spin because you need it for position on a particular shot. I'm talking this whole "Touch of outside" for all cut shots to help pocket the ball phenomenon. I've even heard Shane say that he positions himself to use outside on all of his cut shots unless a particular situation calls for inside. I've also heard Mike Siegel, Buddy Hall, and a few others talk about this as well. I watch Corey Deuel a lot and he uses a bit of outside on almost every shot. But none of us are at their level.

I use TOI and have been for a couple of years now, but I don't think it's necessarily needed. I'm just comfortable with it. I like that I can hit the balls fuller with a stroke and still not lose the cue ball after contact; however, I can aim and pocket balls using just the center ball axis just as well. Sometimes I ask myself why I am adding variables when its not necessary.

So, is this just one of those illogical things people do because they've been told they should be doing it, or does it actually provide a tangible edge? Like I was saying, couldn't you achieve the same result just aiming a tad thinner with center-ball to account for throw?

To answer your question I need to be hands on & I need to know your skill level.
This cannot be done on a keyboard....
I'm not knocking you in any way, but it's very important for me to understand what you know and don't know first.
Understanding the cue ball when being struck with inside or outside, one must already understand what occurs when the spin transitions to a natural rolling ball.
Basically.....
Cueing outside/pushes the cb inward, cueing with inside pushes the cb outward.
Getting a feel for the ''transition'' to a natural rolling ball when hit in this manner is key.

Like a stop shot when you cue at 6 o'clock, it will Only stop dead upon contact, when the cb has no backward spinning/or natural forward rolling movement occurring.

For new players that want to do more than make a ball, I explain it comparatively/about playing with a blow up beach ball.
If you punch the beach ball dead center it goes forward straight.
If you punch it one fist off center right side it goes forward, but slightly left.
As you go outward more with you punch it goes forward, but More to the left.
Now when you add spin, which part of the cb are you hitting. 3 o'clock 2 or 4? or 5?
How much spinning do you need?
Is it an extreme outside spinning 3 o'clock cue ball???
All these factors one must understand first.
Then when you miss you understand why.

bm
ACS level two instructor coach.
Colorado

 

[Casting 9s]

Those who argue that you want to add sidespin because you probably won't be able to hit the center of the ball need to think about that more.

Yes, and this is another point I wanted to make about "touch of inside/outside". I don't really see how that would be any different than aiming center ball. Your margin for error is still exactly the same. Yes, you might know what side you errored on by favoring one side, but you're still going to miss the shot just the same. It doesn't increase your margin for error. If you catch the wrong side trying to hit centerball, you are going to know which side you errored on very quickly. So I don't buy the notion that "using TOI/TOO gives you instant feedback on what you did wrong." If you're even remotely good at pool, you will know immediately which side of the cue ball you errored on. So, that "selling point" of TOI/TOO never did make any sense to me. The margin of error is the same.

I played poker professionally for many years, and went on to work in the industry for 20 more. There were a LOT of common practices/beliefs among pros (which trickled down to the amateurs who worship them) that made no logical sense at all. I see a lot of parallels to pool in that regard.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Yes, and this is another point I wanted to make about "touch of inside/outside". I don't really see how that would be any different than aiming center ball. Your margin for error is still exactly the same. Yes, you might know what side you errored on by favoring one side, but you're still going to miss the shot just the same. It doesn't increase your margin for error. If you catch the wrong side trying to hit centerball, you are going to know which side you errored on very quickly. So I don't buy the notion that "using TOI/TOO gives you instant feedback on what you did wrong." If you're even remotely good at pool, you will know immediately which side of the cue ball you errored on. So, that "selling point" of TOI/TOO never did make any sense to me. The margin of error is the same.

I played poker professionally for many years, and went on to work in the industry for 20 more. There were a LOT of common practices/beliefs among pros (which trickled down to the amateurs who worship them) that made no logical sense at all. I see a lot of parallels to pool in that regard.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, when a pro sidespin (TOI/TOO) to direct a ball toward one side of a pocket, they are also mindful of how they tend to miss. For instance, they might miss more than 90% of the time due to applying too much spin, rather than too little.

On the other hand, an amateur's mistakes tend to be more balanced, which reinforces the point you've made, but for some, not all, players.

 

[Casting 9s]

This can-of-worms has been opened and thankfully closed quite a while back. https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/cj-wileys-touch-of-inside-3-part-pocket-system.291380/ There's a lot more on here too if you do a quick SEARCH. I agree it is a playing method NOT an aiming system. Like i said, been covered a LOT as in TO DEATH previously.

Oh boy. Where do I begin here. First of all, are you ok? Why are we SHOUTING random WORDS throughout OUR sentences?

You either didn't read, or just missed the entire point of the original post. This post is not about TOI. It's literally talking about the practice of "throwing" balls in using a touch of outside and whether or not it is nonsense. I use TOI, but I also am willing to concede that it may just be nonsense and that it provides no edge compared to using center ball. That's what I am trying to get to the bottom with this TOI/TOO stuff. Do they actually provide an edge/margin of error, or is it all just parroted nonsense? If we are using a "touch of outside" to cancel out throw, why not just aim a tick thinner with center ball to account for the throw?

Take a deep breath, regroup, read the actual post, and only decide to reply if it pertains to the topic. You also may want to look into the mental health of your caps lock key. It may have schizophrenia.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I am trying to get to the bottom with this TOI/TOO stuff. Do they actually provide an edge/margin of error, or is it all just parroted nonsense?

They provide no more margin of error - as others have mentioned, they simply substitute one source of error for another (maybe that you're more familiar with).

pj
chgo

P.S. Here's a method of finding the right amount of tip offset for perfect "gearing" (no-throw) english - simply substitute the OB contact point for the rail contact point (the "perpendicular" line shows the CB contact point).

 

[Casting 9s]

They provide no more margin of error - as others have mentioned, they simply substitute one source of error for another (maybe that you're more familiar with).

pj
chgo

P.S. Here's a method of finding the right amount of tip offset for perfect "gearing" (no-throw) english - simply substitute the OB contact point for the rail contact point (the "perpendicular" line shows the CB contact point).

View attachment 809333

That's a good diagram. Thank you for that.

In your opinion, is it worth doing this? With the added variables, is it a net positive? Are there other benefits of doing this on all cut shots that maybe I am missing? Wouldn't just aiming a tad thinner aiming center-ball achieve the same thing? Does it actually improve your pocketing %, or is it a placebo?

I guess I am just trying to get to the bottom of all of this TOI/TOO/Center-ball stuff and if it really adds anything to your game.

I study players like CJ Wiley (TOI), Mike Siegel (TOO), Corey Deuel (TOO), SVB (TOO), Buddy Hall (TOO), and they use it on almost every shot. I almost never see them hit center ball. Even CJ Wiley uses TOO on a lot of shots if you watch closely, even though he would never admit to it.

So while I have yet to see a really logical reason as to why you would do this instead of just accounting for throw while using center-ball, there must be a reason every good player does it. Or is there?? Sometimes things just get parroted and people get it in their head that it is the "standard" practice, so they should be doing it too. I saw that ALL the time in the world of professional poker.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

That's a good diagram. Thank you for that.

In your opinion, is it worth doing this? With the added variables, is it a net positive? Are there other benefits of doing this on all cut shots that maybe I am missing? Wouldn't just aiming a tad thinner aiming center-ball achieve the same thing? Does it actually improve your pocketing %, or is it a placebo?

I guess I am just trying to get to the bottom of all of this TOI/TOO/Center-ball stuff and if it really adds anything to your game.

I study players like CJ Wiley (TOI), Mike Siegel (TOO), Corey Deuel (TOO), SVB (TOO), Buddy Hall (TOO), and they use it on almost every shot. I almost never see them hit center ball. Even CJ Wiley uses TOO on a lot of shots if you watch closely, even though he would never admit to it.

So while I have yet to see a really logical reason as to why you would do this instead of just accounting for throw while using center-ball, there must be a reason every good player does it. Or is there?? Sometimes things just get parroted and people get it in their head that it is the "standard" practice, so they should be doing it too. I saw that ALL the time in the world of professional poker.

Bob previously mentioned the anti-skid effect. So while I agree that some professionals share misleading information, I've also witnessed a pro at a tournament—where I was reporting ringside—slap the table HARD in frustration--the audience was stunned--after successfully making several shots, and indeed, several whole tables before that, only to miss a perfectly struck ball due to throw. TOO is one way to help pros not miss that every hundredth shot or whatever due to throw/skid. That's one reason of several that they use it for.

 

[Casting 9s]

Bob previously mentioned the anti-skid effect. So while I agree that some professionals share misleading information, I've also witnessed a pro at a tournament—where I was reporting ringside—slap the table HARD in frustration--the audience was stunned--after successfully making several shots, and indeed, several whole tables before that, only to miss a perfectly struck ball due to throw. TOO is one way to help pros not miss that every hundredth shot or whatever due to throw/skid. That's one reason of several that they use it for.

Ok, good stuff. Thanks for sharing that.

I suppose for the average player - or I guess any player that isn't at an elite level - this isn't really necessary. I would image that we all miss balls because of our imperfect strokes, inconsistent stances, and other miscalculations far more than a skid.

Let me guess... it was Earl?

 

[boogieman]

Even CJ Wiley uses TOO on a lot of shots if you watch closely, even though he would never admit to it.

I'm pretty sure he's said he will use that when the situation calls for it. Honestly I can't remember but I thought I heard him mention it.

 

[boogieman]

Bob previously mentioned the anti-skid effect. So while I agree that some professionals share misleading information, I've also witnessed a pro at a tournament—where I was reporting ringside—slap the table HARD in frustration--the audience was stunned--after successfully making several shots, and indeed, several whole tables before that, only to miss a perfectly struck ball due to throw. TOO is one way to help pros not miss that every hundredth shot or whatever due to throw/skid. That's one reason of several that they use it for.

And when you are on conditions that amplify throw, like old dirty balls you must do something to mitigate it or you will miss many shots you would have made with clean balls.

One other thing for inside or outside, you can use it to cheat the pocket or manufacture an angle, say you got too straight on a shot to get shape... with throw and inside/outside you can make a bit of shape, not ideal as if you had left an angle in the first place, but it can bail you out in less than ideal situations.

 

[dquarasr]

I am a lowly player trying to improve. I suppose right now I'm shooting at a high 400's FR (480 or so) even though my official rating is 425 (it's been months since I've played in a league that reports to Fargo, and I have improved a ton since late summer last year). So take my comments for what they're worth.

I often use TOO for the simple reason that I don't have to adjust my aim if I am going to shoot softly or medium softly. Rather than shoot it a "tick thinner", I'll shoot it exactly as I would aim it (I use Ghost Ball) as if I am going to hit it with pace, and if I need to hit softly, I'll hit it with outside. I sometimes will adjust how far from center I'll go depending on the cut angle, exactly how softly I am hitting, and distance to the pocket. For me it removes the variable of having to thin the shot. How much thinner? I don't have to know.

Of course all this goes out the window if I need center ball or inside because I'm going to bounce the CB off a rail to control shape. In that case, yes, I'll hit it a "tick thinner". So it's good to have both methods in one's repertoire.

If you would be so kind as to explain something. In your post you said "I use TOI and have been for a couple of years now, but I don't think it's necessarily needed. I'm just comfortable with it. I like that I can hit the balls fuller" (emphasis mine). I'm confused. Isn't hitting fuller and increasing the cut angle what TOO does? How are you able to thicker hit a shot using inside yet get more OB angle? Can you please explain?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...is it worth doing this? With the added variables, is it a net positive? Are there other benefits of doing this on all cut shots that maybe I am missing? Wouldn't just aiming a tad thinner aiming center-ball achieve the same thing? Does it actually improve your pocketing %, or is it a placebo?

Both ways (adding "gearing" sidespin or adjusting aim for throw) have variables to adjust for:
- with spin you have to compensate for squirt/swerve and use the right amount of tip offset
- without spin you have to compensate for throw with the current cloth/ball/etc. conditions

I think so many pros use gearing sidespin because (1) they're good at it, and (2) it minimizes the effects of cloth/ball/etc. conditions.

pj
chgo

 

[Casting 9s]

If you would be so kind as to explain something. In your post you said "I use TOI and have been for a couple of years now, but I don't think it's necessarily needed. I'm just comfortable with it. I like that I can hit the balls fuller" (emphasis mine). I'm confused. Isn't hitting fuller and increasing the cut angle what TOO does? How are you able to thicker hit a shot using inside yet get more OB angle? Can you please explain?

With TOI, Coming from the inside of the cue-ball (often referred to as a "heavy" ball), you can let your stroke out more as you are deflecting the cue ball into the object ball. Also, because this mitigates the post-contact spin transferred to the cue-ball, it deadens the cue ball after contact and makes it appear to "float" to the next position. Because of this, you are able to pound the ball and still keep it on a string. To me, this is the biggest "edge" TOI offers, although I will concede that I'm not entirely sure that isn't just a "comfort" thing for me. However, I'm fully open to the idea that it's all nonsense. That is why I am trying to get to the bottom of all of this TOI/TOO stuff.

TOO is more of a "touch/feel" thing to me. Someone above said it best, it's like you are "chipping" the balls in. Since you are hitting the outside of the cue-ball (the "lighter" side), a heavy stroke isn't necessary. I've found it easier to overrun my landing zone when spinning balls in with TOO, however, I also have gone on very long runs using it.

I'm not trying to be facetious with this thread. I'm trying to honestly assess if these methods are a + net gain over using center ball. I practice a LOT, and I want to buy in to a method and just stick with it. A lot of times I run racks for hours just practicing using nothing but the center ball axis. I don't see a huge difference from using TOI or TOO. I am so comfortable with TOI now that it's just my default. I used it when I first started playing pool as I wanted to have something to focus on, and it's just ingrained in me now. But I have advanced to the point where I am examining and questioning everything and open to trying some new things and evolve.