Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

[CJ Wiley]

That may work for you but of course it requires a great deal of "interpolation" between the few standard angle you use. It may work psychologically, but it has nothing to do with geometry. Here is a technical description of the coverage of shots for fractional aim if no fiddling/interpolation/adjustment is used:

Fractional aiming and required accuracy

One aiming method is to imagine the 2-D overlap of the cue ball as it lands on the object ball and connect the amount of overlap to the cut angle. The common fractions and their approximate degrees of cut are: full ball -- 0 degrees -- straight shot 3/4 full -- 15 degrees 1/2 full -- 30 degrees...

forums.azbilliards.com

No, it works for anyone, I'm nothing special.

I seriously doubt if anyone has ever tried to describe how it's done in writing, it takes visual aids. Remember, the pocket is twice as big as the object ball and when you utilize the 3 part pocket system it makes a huge difference in margin of error and reduces the angles you have to create. I have people catch on to this and think it's some kind of magic lol but it's not, it's just taking advantage of the power and computing ability of the subconscious mind.

I did this for years and didn't quite understand how it worked, because when you really catch on it's like you aim the majority of your shots like they are straight in.....but the alignment is the key, you MUST align Center/Center or Center/Edge or it won't work.

This is what when you ask a champion player how they aim they will look at you like Michael Jordon would look at someone that ask him how he aims a basketball shot. There are only 8 total angles, however, there is another component that relies heavily on the alignment being the same every time. Most people align to the shot line, but that is NOT how you do what I'm referring to. I'll try to make a video to show how this is done, I'm working on another video project now, but may be able to put something together while it's fresh on my mind.

 

[CJ Wiley]

CJ,

I have always admired your game and the choices you made on and off the table. IMO, you have made more out of yourself than most, given the same abilities. Are or were you the best to ever play? No, but...IMO.... you made the right decisions at the right times to put yourself in a position to do great over the long haul. Not just walk off into the sunset after a period of time. I tip my hat to you sir!

The "math" says different than 8 angles, although I know exactly what your speaking of. What your trying to get across online is not gonna happen with 99% of players. As you know, very few will be able to fully or even partially understand what your talking about. I have used a toi way before anyone ever breathed a word of it.

I've had more than one coach tell me..........."your not at center ball"........... lol. It's because I used a "smidge" of what "appeared to be"......spin. In reality, it puts no actual spin on the ball. What it does do, is give me room for error in pressure situations.

Having said all that, with respect.... I wish you would not put down LD shafts. As someone that can play (when healthy) at a low tier pro speed with a high squirt or low squirt shaft, I choose to use the lowest squirt shaft I can find.

If a player is at a certain level of play, they should be able to adjust to "any" shaft, table, ball set, humidity level......etc...etc without any issues at all.

Again, you have my respect, but I disagree with the thought of LD shafts being even remotely bad.

Did I put down LD shafts? I don't have much of an opinion on shafts, from my experience they all play slightly differently, "good, bad who knows?"

I have a friend that's been after me to show players how to play with each one of them individually, he's really in to equipment and can tell you all about each one and how they differ in playability. My position is if you learn how the stroke properly works you don't have to rely on LD or any shafts other than what you prefer. My shafts are standard, but they don't deflect much at all, it's the size that makes the most difference to me.

Just like in golf, the pros don't want to play with golf clubs that can't spin the ball much, but beginners love them because they can't hook or slice the golf ball. This is fine temperately, but in the long run it keeps them from developing a good stroke and they reach a level they will never improve and probably, over time, get worse. I can see this happening with players that think a certain shaft will overcome poor tip targeting and stroking mechanics.

 

[Bob Jewett]

No, it works for anyone, I'm nothing special.
...

It is unlikely to work for those people who have the curse of understanding geometry and want a system that is based in fact.

Fractional aiming gives a framework for approaching all shots. I think its major advantage, which is common to many systems, is that it makes the player pay attention to the shot within that framework. Another advantage, in a way, is that it is so loosely connected to reality that it gives the subconscious free rein to make the shots.

CJ, I urge you check the link I posted above and try to understand the geometry.

 

[CJ Wiley]

It is unlikely to work for those people who have the curse of understanding geometry and want a system that is based in fact.

Fractional aiming gives a framework for approaching all shots. I think its major advantage, which is common to many systems, is that it makes the player pay attention to the shot within that framework. Another advantage, in a way, is that it is so loosely connected to reality that it gives the subconscious free rein to make the shots.

CJ, I urge you check the link I posted above and try to understand the geometry.

I do understand geometry, what you don't seem to understand is how you go about the shot makes a difference.

If the ball is hanging in the pocket how many angles are there? Does it matter how far the object ball is away from the pocket in. your opinion?

 

[Brookeland Bill]

The problem with using "center ball" is if you don't make the shot, or hit the part of the pocket desired you won't get the necessary feedback to make adjustments to calibrate your future shots.

This makes the player play a guessing game, which will break down when competing against a player that KNOWS why their shot reacted a certain way.

Giving handicaps to "center ball players," as a result of them being unaware of this knowledge is almost unfair. Just like playing golf, you won't see a professional trying to hit a full shot straight. They will move the ball off the straight line so they can align to one side of the green (or fairway) and force it into the center zone......if the ball curves too much it goes into the far side of the target area.

I would love to see all my opponents using center ball, they would (unknowingly) be at a disadvantage. If you're trapped at a level that you can't seem to improve I'd highly recommend learning how to use spin and deflection to help your shotmaking, not hurt yourself by using a "low deflection shaft".

The Game is the Teacher

I’ve always had it explained this way-determine and hitting center ball is very difficult and inconsistent...hence I never play “center ball” unless it’s a stun shot and I’m no more than 10-12 inches from the object ball...

 

[straightline]

I want to play every shot as a unique entity; one of the luxuries of CPA. Every time I get to the table I am presented with the infinity of options; very inspiring. That ventured, you don't need or even want to pack all of that to take down the cash. This thread shows us some practical insight on job related issues and proven remedies. Lotta apples and oranges back there. ^^^^^

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I’ve always had it explained this way-determine and hitting center ball is very difficult and inconsistent...

No more so than determining and hitting any other spot on the CB - and missing any spot has the same consequences. Avoiding center ball only adds more variables to the shot.

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

At perceived center, that same margin of error encompasses opposing error zones.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

At perceived center, that same margin of error encompasses opposing error zones.

Assuming that's supposed to mean "misses to the left or right", it's the same no matter what CB spot you're trying to hit. Hitting too far left = CB goes too far right; hitting too far right = CB goes too far left.

This isn't rocket surgery.

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

It is unlikely to work for those people who have the curse of understanding geometry and want a system that is based in fact.

This apparently is my problem...lol.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I’ve always had it explained this way-determine and hitting center ball is very difficult and inconsistent...hence I never play “center ball” unless it’s a stun shot and I’m no more than 10-12 inches from the object ball...

Yes, anyone that thinks they can come down to the exact center every time is delusional. Even SKY Woodward, one of the most talented players in the world (2 time Mosconi Cup VIP) went down slightly to the inside when he was photographed trying to target the exact center. If he can't do it, do you really think players that aren't as good as he Is. can?

My teaching is based on the fact that the human mind and body are NOT created to play pool. So, to try to build a foundation that is based on perfection is not wise, we should not try to be perfect, it's better to build a foundation that has the most margin for error. This happens at the pocket for shotmaking and on the table for position play, I use ZONES to make sure I have maximum margin of error. As far as the pocket is concerned I divide it into 3 parts, the inside, the middle and the outside of the pocket.....that is a zone, and I do something similar when playing position.

The result is I contact the pocket's center most of the time (unless trying to hit one of the other 2 parts) and I appear to put the cue ball exactly where I want it. This is a result of going about the game much different than what may seem "logical" - our minds are not designed to play pool either, so what seems "logical" is probably not the best way to achieve your goals and play at your highest level possible!

The Game is the Teacher

 

[garczar]

Yes, anyone that thinks they can come down to the exact center every time is delusional. Even SKY Woodward, one of the most talented players in the world (2 time Mosconi Cup VIP) went down slightly to the inside when he was photographed trying to target the exact center. If he can't do it, do you really think players that aren't as good as he Is. can?

My teaching is based on the fact that the human mind and body are NOT created to play pool. So, to try to build a foundation that is based on perfection is not wise, we should not try to be perfect, it's better to build a foundation that has the most margin for error. This happens at the pocket for shotmaking and on the table for position play, I use ZONES to make sure I have maximum margin of error. As far as the pocket is concerned I divide it into 3 parts, the inside, the middle and the outside of the pocket.....that is a zone, and I do something similar when playing position.

The result is I contact the pocket's center most of the time (unless trying to hit one of the other 2 parts) and I appear to put the cue ball exactly where I want it. This is a result of going about the game much different than what may seem "logical" - our minds are not designed to play pool either, so what seems "logical" is probably not the best way to achieve your goals and play at your highest level possible!

The Game is the Teacher

Been following this thread and i have one question: if its near impossible to come to exact center every time HOW can you come a 'touch of whatever' every time? What am i not seeing here?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Been following this thread and i have one question: if its near impossible to come to exact center every time HOW can you come a 'touch of whatever' every time? What am i not seeing here?

I can come down to the inside of center millions of times in a row, I'm pretty sure nobody can do that targeting the exact center.

When you favor the inside, it really doesn't matter if you cue it slightly more or less to the inside. The essential factor is if your stroke deviates, you won't contact the other side of center and accidentally deflect the cue ball the other way. Therefore there are only 2 possible results (left or right and straight) if you try to target the center there are 3 (left, right, straight) variables.

This may not seem like that big of an advantage, however, if you want to play to your highest potential you will need to develop a way to make the cue ball do what you THINK......if you have 3 different results from your cue ball contact it's not possible to know for sure and you won't be able to make the cue ball do what you THINK......when you do master this concept you will graduate from "playing the game," to a much higher level.... the Game plays Through you!

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if its near impossible to come to exact center every time HOW can you come a 'touch of whatever' every time?

The argument seems to be "it doesn't matter as much" if you miss your tip target when you're trying to hit off center. Of course, that's nonsense - missing your tip target causes the CB to go in the same wrong direction no matter what CB spot you're trying to hit.

The whole "eliminating misses to one side" idea is a mental gimmick. The only thing it does for the shot itself is encourage you to pay closer attention to hitting the CB precisely (and maybe give you more confidence). Of course, it also adds spin/squirt complications.

pj
chgo

 

[garczar]

I can come down to the inside of center millions of times in a row, I'm pretty sure nobody can do that targeting the exact center.

When you favor the inside, it really doesn't matter if you cue it slightly more or less to the inside. The essential factor is if your stroke deviates, you won't contact the other side of center and accidentally deflect the cue ball the other way. Therefore there are only 2 possible results (left or right and straight) if you try to target the center there are 3 (left, right, straight) variables.

This may not seem like that big of an advantage, however, if you want to play to your highest potential you will need to develop a way to make the cue ball do what you THINK......if you have 3 different results from your cue ball contact it's not possible to know for sure and you won't ever be able to make the cue ball do what you THINK......when you do master this concept you will graduate from "playing the game," to a much higher level.... the Game plays Through you!

The Game is the Teacher

I kinda see that. Slight variation of one side are better than variations of three.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When you favor the inside, it really doesn't matter if you cue it slightly more or less to the inside. The essential factor is if your stroke deviates, you won't contact the other side of center and accidentally deflect the cue ball the other way.

Nonsense. Missing centerball and missing your intended off center hit have identical results. In both cases you want the CB to go to the same place (adjusted for whatever throw you get with the off center hit) - miss hit to the right on the CB and your CB goes farther left of the same place (either way) - miss hit to the left on the CB and your CB goes farther right of the same place (either way).

pj <- for the bazillionth time
chgo

 

[garczar]

Nonsense. Missing centerball and missing your intended off center hit have identical results. In both cases you want the CB to go to the same place (adjusted for whatever throw you get with the off center hit) - miss hit to the right on the CB and your CB goes farther left of the same place (either way) - miss hit to the left on the CB and your CB goes farther right of the same place (either way).

pj <- for the bazillionth time
chgo

Just curious, have you ever tried TOI at all? Is your dismissal just based on what you think/believe should or shouldn't work? Not trying to start a flame war just wondering if you tried it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just curious, have you ever tried TOI at all? Is your dismissal just based on what you think/believe should or shouldn't work? Not trying to start a flame war just wondering if you tried it.

Have I ever tried hitting the CB a touch left or right of center? Thousands of times - probably a dozen or more already today. And I noticed that if I missed left or right of my intended tip target, my cue ball would miss right or left of where I intended it to go - exactly as if I was trying to hit center ball (and by the same amounts).

Thinking of it differently (for instance, like hooks and slices in golf) doesn't change that physical reality. It might make you more confident, but artificially favoring one kind of hit over another will also limit your growth.

You don't even need to "try it" to know that much - it's simple common sense based on knowing how squirt works.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Have I ever tried hitting the CB a touch left or right of center? Thousands of times - probably a dozen or more already today. And I noticed that if I missed left or right of my intended tip target, my cue ball would miss right or left of where I intended it to go - exactly as if I was trying to hit center ball (and by the same amounts).

Thinking of it differently (for instance, like hooks and slices in golf) doesn't change that physical reality. It might make you more confident, but artificially favoring one kind of hit over another will also limit your growth.

You don't even need to "try it" to know that much - it's simple common sense based on knowing how squirt works.

pj
chgo

I should clarify that I'm one of CJ's admirers - he's a great player and businessman, who can even tell a great story - a credit to the sport.

CJ, I assume when you post here on this discussion forum it's not just to advertise, but for conversation about what you have to say. I've gone around about this before, so I might sound impatient with it, but I hope you don't take it personally or think I'm trying to "block your action". It's all in the spirit of sharing facts and understanding.

And, by the way, what I've seen of your instruction is great. My difference with this one idea may just come down to semantics - maybe you're really saying this is a "pro way of seeing things" rather than an objective physical fact. I could get behind that.

Glad you're here. Let's argue.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

I should clarify that I'm one of CJ's admirers - he's a great player and businessman, who can even tell a great story - a credit to the sport.

CJ, I assume when you post here on this discussion forum it's not just to advertise, but for conversation about what you have to say. I've gone around about this before, so I might sound impatient with it, but I hope you don't take it personally or think I'm trying to "block your action". It's all in the spirit of sharing facts and understanding.

And, by the way, what I've seen of your instruction is great. My difference with this one idea may just come down to semantics - maybe you're really saying this is a "pro way of seeing things" rather than an objective physical fact. I could get behind that.

Glad you're here. Let's argue.

pj
chgo

Yes, there's definitely differences in human perception, which makes the world much more interesting and mentally stimulating. I know why you have issues with the Touch of Inside, and it's more fun not to tell you specifically what it is, you'd rather figure it out anyway. Definitely figure into the equation that I aim for the inside of the pocket unless it's a straight in shot and try to calibrate the center pocket....this is how I create the pocket zone, what I refer to as the 3 Part Pocket System.....it works synergistically with the Touch of Inside (or Outside if you prefer).

As far as creating angles in pocket billiards, it's like classical music, there are a limited amount of themes and then there's variations of those themes. Pool and music both are very mathematical and at the same time creative so they are an ideal harmony of the left/right brain functions.

I appreciate your participation and input, the game is the teacher....for all of us.