Using Deflection to create a bigger pocket

[CJ Wiley]

The most difficult thing (in any game/sport) is to hit the ball EXACTLY in the center, with no spin or deflection...pool's the same because if you just hit the ball minutely off it will deflect in the opposite direction...because the very best players realize this (either consciously or unconsciously) they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)....that way they know FOR SURE which way the ball will deflect and if they hit it off center a bit more it will deflect a hair more, but most importantly if they hit it off the OTHER WAY it will just not deflect AT ALL.....the worse thing you can do is to try to hit the center every time and slightly hit it off one way OR THE OTHER...this way you will NEVER know why you are missing (and often leads to "fixing" the wrong thing).....and when you do you will often UNDERCUT shots...this is the worse mistake you can make.....if you notice, when a champion player misses they almost always OVER-CUT the shot...this is no accident, when I miss a shot I will always know it was from something tangible, not that I "MAY Have" hit the wrong side of center and "accidently" veered the ball the wrong way.

 

[DrOnePocket]

CJ

If I am understanding you correctly, this falls along the same line of thought that pro golfers use. they almost never try to hit a shot dead straight. It's too hard. The always try to shape the shot. I came from a golf background and have always applied this to my pool game. The ONLY time I use dead center (or what i believe is center) of the cue ball is when i HAVE to slow roll a ball like in one pocket.

 

[One Pocket John]

CJ,

Lee Brett goes into great detail about this in his DVD.

Thanks for re-enforcing this concept. I'll start using it more.

Thanks for all that you share.

John

 

[TheThaiger]

How does using deflection create a bigger pocket?

 

[ronscuba]

The most difficult thing (in any game/sport) is to hit the ball EXACTLY in the center, with no spin or deflection...pool's the same because if you just hit the ball minutely off it will deflect in the opposite direction...because the very best players realize this (either consciously or unconsciously) they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)....that way they know FOR SURE which way the ball will deflect and if they hit it off center a bit more it will deflect a hair more, but most importantly if they hit it off the OTHER WAY it will just not deflect AT ALL.....the worse thing you can do is to try to hit the center every time and slightly hit it off one way OR THE OTHER...this way you will NEVER know why you are missing (and often leads to "fixing" the wrong thing).....and when you do you will often UNDERCUT shots...this is the worse mistake you can make.....if you notice, when a champion player misses they almost always OVER-CUT the shot...this is no accident, when I miss a shot I will always know it was from something tangible, not that I "MAY Have" hit the wrong side of center and "accidently" veered the ball the wrong way.

Want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.

Say a long right cut shot into the right corner pocket. Aim OB left center of pocket and use outside english on CB ?

 

[Bob Jewett]

How does using deflection create a bigger pocket?

Of course the pocket remains physically the same size. I think the point CJ is making is that if you reduce the "spread" or "scatter" or typical error of your shots, the pocket is effectively larger. For more on this topic, see the article: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000-03.pdf

CJ is proposing a particular way to do that in the face of imperfect cuing.

 

[FranCrimi]

Want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.

Say a long right cut shot into the right corner pocket. Aim OB left center of pocket and use outside english on CB ?

Yes. I agree with C.J.. There is the odd exception where you absolutely have to hit center ball for a specific reason, however, you will find that it's rare.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The 3 part pocket system

CJ,

Lee Brett goes into great detail about this in his DVD.

Thanks for re-enforcing this concept. I'll start using it more.

Thanks for all that you share.

John

I've never seen his DVD...this was in my Ultimate Pool Secrets released in 1997...I'm just expanding on the "3 PART POCKET SYSTEM" that I developed from working with Tiger Wood's last swing coach HANK HANEY from here in Dallas. www.cjwiley.com

 

[CJ Wiley]

Shaping the SHOT

CJ

If I am understanding you correctly, this falls along the same line of thought that pro golfers use. they almost never try to hit a shot dead straight. It's too hard. The always try to shape the shot. I came from a golf background and have always applied this to my pool game. The ONLY time I use dead center (or what i believe is center) of the cue ball is when i HAVE to slow roll a ball like in one pocket.

This is correct....then you know exactly what I'm talking about...the reason it's not known by the average pool player is because of the "3rd factor"...in golf you "shape the shot" and it goes to the target zone, however, in pool, you "shape the shot", it then hits the object ball and THEN HITS THE TARGET ZONE. www.cjwiley.com

 

[CJ Wiley]

3 Part Pocket System

Of course the pocket remains physically the same size. I think the point CJ is making is that if you reduce the "spread" or "scatter" or typical error of your shots, the pocket is effectively larger. For more on this topic, see the article: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2000-03.pdf

CJ is proposing a particular way to do that in the face of imperfect cuing.

It's not about "imperfect cuing"....it's about "shaping the shot" to create more margin of error (by favoring one side of the cue ball)....and this approach does make the pocket seem bigger because instead of 2 parts like most people use (middle and side), I'm suggesting you can create 3 (side-middle-side)....I've always called this the 3 PART POCKET SYSTEM. This can NOT be done cueing center ball.

I'm not sure what you mean by "spread" or "scatter"....I would think you are referring to deflection or what's commonly referred to as "squirt or veer".

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

CJ

If I am understanding you correctly, this falls along the same line of thought that pro golfers use. they almost never try to hit a shot dead straight. It's too hard. The always try to shape the shot. I came from a golf background and have always applied this to my pool game. The ONLY time I use dead center (or what i believe is center) of the cue ball is when i HAVE to slow roll a ball like in one pocket.

The way Nicklaus describes why players work the ball one way or the other isn't so much because hitting it straight is too hard, but rather because by hitting a fade or a draw you increase your margin of error.

Say the fairway is 30 yards wide. If you try to hit it straight down the middle of the fairway you only have 15 yards to work with. If you miss by more than that you are in the rough. But if you aim down the left side and play a fade (for a righty) you can miss by almost 30 yards and you are still in the fairway.

 

[Shaky1]

Even on a short putt, most Pros want to try to see some break to use the biggest margin of error. What you say makes sense!:smile:
Mike Siegel almost always uses half a tip of spin on the cue ball.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Controlling Both Elements

The way Nicklaus describes why players work the ball one way or the other isn't so much because hitting it straight is too hard, but rather because by hitting a fade or a draw you increase your margin of error.

Say the fairway is 30 yards wide. If you try to hit it straight down the fairway you only have 15 yards to work with. If you miss by more than that you are in the rough. But if you aim down the left side and play a fade (for a righty) you can miss by almost 30 yards and you are still in the fairway.

This is exactly how it works when aiming at a pool pocket...it's the same type scenario....it increases the "size" by how you go about your approach...and you can't do it without cueing the ball off center....just remember, you can do it with deflection or with spin...or with both, but you have to be VERY conscious of your speed control...Buddy Hall did this, but if you noticed he hit most every shot the same speed (when possible)....this is the only way you can control both elements consistently:thumbup: ....imho

 

[scottjen26]

Completely agree with this. I unknowingly used to do this same thing for years, throwing balls in and using spin on everything. My issue was I always felt like it might have caused some consistency issues, so after I quit playing for 6 years i started paying more attention to center ball.

When I started messing with aiming systems, I really became more attuned to center ball, and started working on ball pocketing with center and compensating with cling etc. I thought I was improving things, maybe I should have stuck with the spin method...

I never got a clear answer to this, so thank you for posting this and confirming. I'm able to make a lot of squirt compensations in a very systematic way, and like you said speed consistency is a big part of that. I still am not convinced that using say 1/2 tip of spin all the time for cuts is more accurate than center, but when aimed properly as you said it just might be. That could have been the piece missing that I wasn't consciously doing before.

Thanks again for sharing the info.
Scott


Scott

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
I'm not sure what you mean by "spread" or "scatter"....I would think you are referring to deflection or what's commonly referred to as "squirt or veer".

That's described in the article I referenced. It's a pretty standard idea in the study of anything that has some random -- or apparently random -- component.

 

[CJ Wiley]

That's described in the article I referenced. It's a pretty standard idea in the study of anything that has some random -- or apparently random -- component.

Thanks, it looks like I need a crash course on the billiard buzz words...I'll read the articles asap

CJ

 

[CJ Wiley]

Fading and Drawing/golf and pool similarities

CJ

If I am understanding you correctly, this falls along the same line of thought that pro golfers use. they almost never try to hit a shot dead straight. It's too hard. The always try to shape the shot. I came from a golf background and have always applied this to my pool game. The ONLY time I use dead center (or what i believe is center) of the cue ball is when i HAVE to slow roll a ball like in one pocket.

That's what I do as well....golf and pool are similar in a lot of respects....the hardest thing IS to hit the ball completely straight, that's why it's a good idea to find a way around it....intentional fading and drawing is the answer as you would well know.....as long as you don't start hooking and slicing that is

 

[randallt6]

been reading alot about this in the Corey and John aiming systems thread, going to give it a try tonight and see how it works. CJ im excited for your new DVD to come out.