Using draw causes more misses?

S

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've heard a comment numerous times recently, even from some decent players, and I gently disagreed, but I didn't want to be too vocal about it just in case I was wrong.

I typically play on Brunswick Centennial or Diamond tables, both with 4 1/2" or slightly smaller pockets (2 balls won't fit past the shelf into the hole). So as is normal with tighter tables, if you are hitting a ball at speed into a pocket that's nearer a rail, you really can't touch the rail on the way in, or if you do just barely, and you only have so much room to hit the pocket facing depending on the shape of the pockets. In other words, you have to hit the shot much more accurately than when you are aiming at a full pocket from the middle of the table. Obviously most of us try to not leave these straighter angles that require a bunch of draw or power to get position on the next shot, but it happens.

So several people recently have commented after a missed shot like the one above that "I just can't draw the ball on these tables" or "draw is really tough on these tables". I tried to explain that I didn't think the draw itself had anything to do with it, but that typically when trying to draw the ball back down table or draw and spin to the opposite rail people hit the ball pretty firm (often firmer than necessary) and it's the pace of the ball and the inaccuracy of the shot that's causing the ball to be rejected, not something magical about the draw itself. I think people just don't notice as much with follow because typically they are hitting a softer follow shot and not trying to follow up and down the table, where the same amount of power is required.

So - is there some strange phenomenon at work with draw vs. center or follow that I'm not aware of, or is it just a matter of the effective pocket opening being even tighter as the speed of the shot increases?

Scott
 
I hardly use draw. I'm not that advanced in ability, so I can't tell you what you should do when trying to draw a ball. If you hit it right it will go straight for the hole ( I hear this all the time), so I don't see how draw should affect it all that much.
 
IMO and experience, powering up on a shot tends to expose the flaws in our stroke.

Powering up on a table with 4.5" corner pockets should be used sparingly... and only at short distances.
 
scottjen26 said:
but that typically when trying to draw the ball back down table or draw and spin to the opposite rail people hit the ball pretty firm (often firmer than necessary) and it's the pace of the ball and the inaccuracy of the shot that's causing the ball to be rejected
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You answered your own question and didnt even realize it. No, draw itself will not make balls miss. Its the technique in that persons stroke that causes them to miss. Everyone should know that the firmer you shoot a shot, the more magnified your stroke errors will become. I would rather follow forward two rails then try to draw the piss out of the ball. That being said I spend alot of time shooting table length draw shots and draw the cue ball into the corner pocket. To do this takes good fundamentals and a sound stroke.

If you can run out with only using follow, then you are playing good patterns and you are not forcing position or doing anything unatrual with the cueball because you are mearly (rolling) the cue ball to the next position.
 
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There's also some simple physics involved. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Draw on the cue ball imparts top spin on the object ball. This top spin can affect how the object ball comes off the inside rail of the pocket and cause the ball to jaw whereas a center struck ball at the same speed would likely fall.
 
center pocket said:
If you can run out with only using follow, then you are playing good patterns and you are not forcing position or doing anything unatrual with the cueball because you are mearly (rolling) the cue ball to the next position.
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Years ago, I heard an old timer, a good player, remark: "Draw, draw, draw, nobody uses follow?" I had a really good, accurate draw stroke years ago and lots of times preferred using it over follow. At this point, though, I agree that draw seems to bring out a lot firmer stroke than necessary and can cause more misses. I tend to use center ball and stay on the vertical axis and have for the last twenty years or so. Roll the ball, don't drive it.
 
Winston846 said:
There's also some simple physics involved. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Draw on the cue ball imparts top spin on the object ball. This top spin can affect how the object ball comes off the inside rail of the pocket and cause the ball to jaw whereas a center struck ball at the same speed would likely fall.
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Doesn't topspin on the OB help it into the pocket?
 
Winston846 said:
There's also some simple physics involved. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Draw on the cue ball imparts top spin on the object ball. This top spin can affect how the object ball comes off the inside rail of the pocket and cause the ball to jaw whereas a center struck ball at the same speed would likely fall.
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I don't believe that...at the power-level being discussed.
 
Winston846 said:
There's also some simple physics involved. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Draw on the cue ball imparts top spin on the object ball. This top spin can affect how the object ball comes off the inside rail of the pocket and cause the ball to jaw whereas a center struck ball at the same speed would likely fall.
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A center struck OB will gain forward roll on its way to the pocket unless its a short shot with with a lot of power. Also forward roll on the OB helps the ball into the pocket. Ask one pocket players who depocket their opponent's balls alot if forward or backward roll helps an object ball into the pocket.
 
center pocket said:
A center struck OB will gain forward roll on its way to the pocket unless its a short shot with with a lot of power. Also forward roll on the OB helps the ball into the pocket. Ask one pocket players who depocket their opponent's balls alot if forward or backward roll helps an object ball into the pocket.
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I could be wrong, but I also seem to jaw a lot of hard draw shots and that seemed like the logical reason.
 
You can't do much to the object ball with the cue ball. A cue ball rotating fiercely moving at a slow pace is example of how spin can't transfer. If it does, there isn't enough to affect the ob's movement. Not enough to derail it.
 
C.Milian said:
You can't do much to the object ball with the cue ball. A cue ball rotating fiercely moving at a slow pace is example of how spin can't transfer. If it does, there isn't enough to affect the ob's movement. Not enough to derail it.
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Not necessarily true. That can depend on the cloth and how clean the balls are. Play enough banks and you can start to learn how to do funky unnatural things to the object balls.
 
brandoncook26 said:
Not necessarily true. That can depend on the cloth and how clean the balls are. Play enough banks and you can start to learn how to do funky unnatural things to the object balls.
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After the OB touches a rail, all bets are off, with respect to CB influence!
 
A lot of the lower capability players think they must use excessive CB velocity in order to get a lot of backspin. What they lack is the dexterity in their wrist to snap forward through impact so that the cue-stick is moving rather slowly at impact, while accelerating rapidly. The separation between cue-stick velocity at impact and cue-stick acceleration at impact is what allows big draw with soft speeds.
 
You may also think spin helps move cue ball along the rails. It doesn't. "Running" English is commonly known to give the ball more momentum, but that's not true. It does, but not as much as people think...probably about as much as crumb on crumb-cake. Whatever. Bad analogy.

You would think outside kills the cb when going two rails in, but it doesn't. You can even come out the other end rail if you hit it right. I've seen that done once. The guy has some stroke and he did it accidentally.
 
C.Milian said:
You may also think spin helps move cue ball along the rails. It doesn't. "Running" English is commonly known to give the ball more momentum, but that's not true. It does, but not as much as people think...probably about as much as crumb on crumb-cake. Whatever. Bad analogy.

You would think outside kills the cb when going two rails in, but it doesn't. You can even come out the other end rail if you hit it right. I've seen that done once. The guy has some stroke and he did it accidentally.
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Let me try and find the video of Efren spinning a ball that is basically stopped into position and I will show you this can be done.
 
MitchAlsup said:
A lot of the lower capability players think they must use excessive CB velocity in order to get a lot of backspin. What they lack is the dexterity in their wrist to snap forward through impact so that the cue-stick is moving rather slowly at impact, while accelerating rapidly. The separation between cue-stick velocity at impact and cue-stick acceleration at impact is what allows big draw with soft speeds.
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Very well said. Rep to you. Its all in the stroke and how you apply the tip to the cue ball.
 
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