Using whole cue ball for position play? Wrong or right?

L

Lightn1nG

Member
Hello everyone!

Where I live there are not many top pros really - maybe a couple 700-730 Fargo players. One of them is my coach and he has a lot of ball knowledge, certainly and he has helped me improve immensely.
BUT:
I tend to question some of his "demands" from time to time about certain technical things.
He says there are basically 4 spots where you are supposed to hit the cue ball: Follow (top of the cue ball); stun follow; stun draw; draw (lowest point of the cue ball). The in-between spots are non-existent according to him - like let's say a bit of draw but not really the lowest part of the cue ball but maybe a half a tip above it.
Do you agree? Do you think that with the correct technique this 4 spots are sufficient for a perfect position play? (disregarding the side-spin, which is a completely different dimension of it all)?
 
Training with 4 points like that with a range of speeds is a great place to start, and eventually you'll develop a feel to be able to sense how much tip offset and stroke speed you need to get the cue ball going where you want. Also, staying on the vertical axis (i.e. no sidespin) will improve your consistency because you won't have to judge for sidespin effects such as squirt, swerve, and throw.
 
I don’t agree at all that the in between spots are non existent.

How many spots are of use on the whole cue ball? What is the whole cue ball?
 
Absolutely do not agree. To quote what the great Buddy Hall once told me: "You have to be able to play all over the cue ball."

You need to have as many weapons in your arsenal of shots as possible. Why limit yourself? You can use those 4 points as reference points, but , sometimes you need to change the tip position to accommodate a particular shot because a speed adjustment won't give you what you need.
 
Lightn1nG said:
Hello everyone!

Where I live there are not many top pros really - maybe a couple 700-730 Fargo players. One of them is my coach and he has a lot of ball knowledge, certainly and he has helped me improve immensely.
BUT:
I tend to question some of his "demands" from time to time about certain technical things.
He says there are basically 4 spots where you are supposed to hit the cue ball: Follow (top of the cue ball); stun follow; stun draw; draw (lowest point of the cue ball). The in-between spots are non-existent according to him - like let's say a bit of draw but not really the lowest part of the cue ball but maybe a half a tip above it.
Do you agree? Do you think that with the correct technique this 4 spots are sufficient for a perfect position play? (disregarding the side-spin, which is a completely different dimension of it all)?
Click to expand...
Your instructor may feel that at your level of play, this is the easiest way to bring you into it without overwhelming you w choices on tip placement. Good general place to start, I guess.
 
Lightn1nG said:
Do you agree? Do you think that with the correct technique this 4 spots are sufficient for a perfect position play? (disregarding the side-spin, which is a completely different dimension of it all)?
Click to expand...
Sufficient for perfect position play? No.
A good baseline that helps accelerate learning by getting more reps of same tip position instead of multiple slightly different ones? Absolutely.

Think of it like this; there's often multiple tip position/speed combinations that give you roughly the same outcome. Some will have benefits over others in certain situations for various reasons e.g. maximizing your margin for error, being easier to judge or being less prone to miscues, so some tip positions will be used more often on average if playing the "correct" shots. One aspect of choosing the tip position is your experience with it; you will miss the shot more often if you've practiced it less. This leads to a tradeoff between positional advantage and a lower shot making % from lack of experience.

Expanding from the previous thought, with our limited practice time and reps, we should prioritize things based on their rate of occurrence. The more common shots should be practiced more often. Same applies for tip positions. If you are a relatively new player and get 100 reps in for each 0.1 tip position difference (on the vertical axis), you won't be too confident in any of them. But using that same time for 500 reps of only 3-5 tip positions (that obviously should be as different from each other as possible, naturally leading to the type of spread your coach suggests), you will get better much faster.

I do something similar for the sidespin axis too; a large portion of my shots are either center, 1 tip left or 1 tip right.
 
Lightn1nG said:
Hello everyone!

Where I live there are not many top pros really - maybe a couple 700-730 Fargo players. One of them is my coach and he has a lot of ball knowledge, certainly and he has helped me improve immensely.
BUT:
I tend to question some of his "demands" from time to time about certain technical things.
He says there are basically 4 spots where you are supposed to hit the cue ball: Follow (top of the cue ball); stun follow; stun draw; draw (lowest point of the cue ball). The in-between spots are non-existent according to him - like let's say a bit of draw but not really the lowest part of the cue ball but maybe a half a tip above it.
Do you agree? Do you think that with the correct technique this 4 spots are sufficient for a perfect position play? (disregarding the side-spin, which is a completely different dimension of it all)?
Click to expand...
Four training spots have been designated, but for precise cue ball movement, such as in Straight Pool or One Pocket, it is beneficial to utilize additional spots along the vertical axis to minimize other variables.
 
One of my favorite drills to help students learn position play is the Wagon Wheel. It requires you to hit all up and down the vertical center of the cue ball. Many students remark that they never realized that they could control the direction of the cue ball like that. Dr. Dave has a video explaining it on YouTube I'll link below.

If you want to send the cue ball to a specific spot (let's say without using a cushion), you need to have the correct speed but also the correct spin. To get both of them at the same time, you must hit at a specific height on the cue ball. When you see that the cue ball goes too far forward on a shot, you must recognize that next time you have to hit the shot a little lower. That will almost certainly not be one of the four "permitted" spots.

As others have mentioned, it may be that your coach feels you're not ready for the fine adjustments. I wonder if he thinks he only uses four vertical positions.

The Wagon Wheel as presented below allows ball in hand so you can select the easiest place for the cue ball to get to the target position. Also try all the shots with just a little cut angle. That will force you to use more of the cue ball.

 
One of my mentors years ago, told me one time to aim at 2:15 on the ball. I never thought to get that precise on the ball.
 
What my coach keeps telling me, is that there is no such thing as a "kind of a draw shot", it's either lowest point on the cue ball or a completely different shot.
I guess y'all disagree. But maybe it's for making my progress quicker as mentioned by some of you too.
 
Lightn1nG said:
What my coach keeps telling me, is that there is no such thing as a "kind of a draw shot", it's either lowest point on the cue ball or a completely different shot.
I guess y'all disagree. But maybe it's for making my progress quicker as mentioned by some of you too.
Click to expand...
If you work through the Wagon Wheel as suggested, you will see that there are all kinds of draw.
 
Lightn1nG said:
Hello everyone!

Where I live there are not many top pros really - maybe a couple 700-730 Fargo players. One of them is my coach and he has a lot of ball knowledge, certainly and he has helped me improve immensely.
BUT:
I tend to question some of his "demands" from time to time about certain technical things.
He says there are basically 4 spots where you are supposed to hit the cue ball: Follow (top of the cue ball); stun follow; stun draw; draw (lowest point of the cue ball). The in-between spots are non-existent according to him - like let's say a bit of draw but not really the lowest part of the cue ball but maybe a half a tip above it.
Do you agree? Do you think that with the correct technique this 4 spots are sufficient for a perfect position play? (disregarding the side-spin, which is a completely different dimension of it all)?
Click to expand...
It's a good start but it's super ignorant if never improved upon. He might be trying to train you on that before expanding to more places. You can honestly do most stuff with no left/right, but there are shots in this game where you will use most of the cueball.

As mentioned the wagon wheel is great. There is an old book by Ted G. Brown called Wagon Wheel System: Secrets of Fine Position Play. If you can get a copy of it (there might be .pdf online) it will teach you the world on position play. He does so showing follow and draw only with talk of what you will use side spin for. Honestly if you go through the 13 or so odd shots and practice until proficient it's quite strong.

When you're learning position play I highly suggest following along with that book open. Understand and re-read how he says to hit the shot and do so until you can do it. It works. At first it seems impossible but by practicing it you develop a good stroke and it starts working.

One thing to remember with pool, there are a lot of half truths, old wives tales, what works for one and may make them into a champion player may make no sense to others. Try to learn all you can, sometimes you have to sift through a lot of BS to get a nugget. It's often worth it and keeping an open mind is a great thing when learning. You want to cultivate a "beginner's mindset" throughout your entire pool life.
 
boogieman said:
It's a good start but it's super ignorant if never improved upon. He might be trying to train you on that before expanding to more places. You can honestly do most stuff with no left/right, but there are shots in this game where you will use most of the cueball.

As mentioned the wagon wheel is great. There is an old book by Ted G. Brown called Wagon Wheel System: Secrets of Fine Position Play. If you can get a copy of it (there might be .pdf online) it will teach you the world on position play. He does so showing follow and draw only with talk of what you will use side spin for. Honestly if you go through the 13 or so odd shots and practice until proficient it's quite strong.

When you're learning position play I highly suggest following along with that book open. Understand and re-read how he says to hit the shot and do so until you can do it. It works. At first it seems impossible but by practicing it you develop a good stroke and it starts working.

One thing to remember with pool, there are a lot of half truths, old wives tales, what works for one and may make them into a champion player may make no sense to others. Try to learn all you can, sometimes you have to sift through a lot of BS to get a nugget. It's often worth it and keeping an open mind is a great thing when learning. You want to cultivate a "beginner's mindset" throughout your entire pool life.
Click to expand...
Take what you can use and leave the rest.
 
Oikawa said:
Sufficient for perfect position play? No.
A good baseline that helps accelerate learning by getting more reps of same tip position instead of multiple slightly different ones? Absolutely.

Think of it like this; there's often multiple tip position/speed combinations that give you roughly the same outcome. Some will have benefits over others in certain situations for various reasons e.g. maximizing your margin for error, being easier to judge or being less prone to miscues, so some tip positions will be used more often on average if playing the "correct" shots. One aspect of choosing the tip position is your experience with it; you will miss the shot more often if you've practiced it less. This leads to a tradeoff between positional advantage and a lower shot making % from lack of experience.

Expanding from the previous thought, with our limited practice time and reps, we should prioritize things based on their rate of occurrence. The more common shots should be practiced more often. Same applies for tip positions. If you are a relatively new player and get 100 reps in for each 0.1 tip position difference (on the vertical axis), you won't be too confident in any of them. But using that same time for 500 reps of only 3-5 tip positions (that obviously should be as different from each other as possible, naturally leading to the type of spread your coach suggests), you will get better much faster.

I do something similar for the sidespin axis too; a large portion of my shots are either center, 1 tip left or 1 tip right.
Click to expand...
Excellent!!
 
add me to the list who agree that ted brown's wagon wheel being a great way to learn about tip placement
you might want to ask your instructor this
if you wanted to draw the cue ball back 1 diamond
how do you do that if you hit the cue ball at different speeds if your tip placement doesnt change?
or
how do you shoot this
make the cue ball replace the black at different speeds

 
Last edited:
Lightn1nG said:
Hello everyone!

Where I live there are not many top pros really - maybe a couple 700-730 Fargo players. One of them is my coach and he has a lot of ball knowledge, certainly and he has helped me improve immensely.
BUT:
I tend to question some of his "demands" from time to time about certain technical things.
He says there are basically 4 spots where you are supposed to hit the cue ball: Follow (top of the cue ball); stun follow; stun draw; draw (lowest point of the cue ball). The in-between spots are non-existent according to him - like let's say a bit of draw but not really the lowest part of the cue ball but maybe a half a tip above it.
Do you agree? Do you think that with the correct technique this 4 spots are sufficient for a perfect position play? (disregarding the side-spin, which is a completely different dimension of it all)?
Click to expand...
Not every player is good at teaching/explaining ball movements.
 
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