USPPA & Jump Cue Ban.. by Tony Annigoni

[eg8r]

I have a question...Since you are the one who posted the info here, knowing full well it would be debated/discussed, why do you keep referring people away, to the phone or in person? If Tony does not hide, then ask him to come here to AZBILLIARDS where you posted the info and answer John. Since this is where we are all at, and where we have received the info, why not have Tony come to the board and answer the questions or join in the debate.
--------------------------------------------------------------- I do not think all the people on AZBILLIARDS or BILLIARDS DIGEST or any other forum are all the people. I am sure that Tony has heard many of the PLAYERS opinions and I would bet that most of them are for banning the jump cue. There are some PLAYERS on these forums but most do not spend a lot of time on them or they would not be PLAYERS. I am not sure what you point is except for piddly arguing. I said "we" meaning the people on the board discussing the topic here on the baord.
----------------------------------------------------------------I have another question...If John was to take up the request to deal with this over the phone, would Tony send you another email transcription of the conversation so we can all see what happened? It is confusing as to why this thread would be started on the board, and include an offer to debate off the board. The people that got this info are here on the board and would like to see Tony reply.
------------------------------------------------------------Even if Tony and John were to "deal" with this on the phone, does it even matter what happened? I am sure John is a nice guy and I respect his opinion but he is just one person. John has every right to state his opinion but it means no more than anybody else's opinion because he has no problem stating it in a long thread. I could care less what would be said in a conversation between the two. I think we all could figure it out. Still once again, not sure what your point is...Tony said he would debate it. If he would, why not do it here since there is plenty of interest on the board and this is where John has called his bluff.----------------------------------------------------------------Tony mentions damage to the tables, but it is obvious that damage control on the tables is not his concern since he is still allowing the jump shot. Why does he even bring up golf...his position on it was weak. In golf, the players have specific clubs for specific situations. That is exactly the same thing as pool and jump cues.
----------------------------------------------------------------I agree can agree that damage to the table may not be the the main or even a concern but I could give many examples or analogize many sports, golf included to support both sides of the argument.

Since Tom brought it here to the board, and Tony is willing to debate it, then why not debate it here on the board so that all the board members are privy to both sides defense.

eg8r

 

[eg8r]

I've only referred ONE person away, Tony does not hide, but, he is somewhat computer challenged, Tony writes the position paper, makes the announcement. If you want to talk to Tony, he's provided an "800" number.

Wow, you got me there. You only referred John, however further in your post you have referred me. My point is that while you were replying to John, you were meaning it for everyone that read it. Anyone that wants to debate call John. Am I correct?

All comments and discussion have been interesting. Cons are still not enough for me to change my mind.... NO MORE JUMP CUES.

Just to get this straight, you are not worried about damage to the tables, correct? You are fine with jump shots, as long as no jump cue was used? I just want to get this out there because in your opening post, you mentioned you agreed with everything Tony had mentioned and he had brought up table damage. In your above quote you mention nothing of the demise of the jump shot, so I am guessing the damage is not the issue, whereas upon closer inspection the issue is the fact that jump shots allow another player another option of getting out of a poorly played safety.

eg8r

 

[eg8r]

Tony mentions damage to the tables, but it is obvious that damage control on the tables is not his concern since he is still allowing the jump shot. Why does he even bring up golf...his position on it was weak. In golf, the players have specific clubs for specific situations. That is exactly the same thing as pool and jump cues.

Your opinion and you have plenty of support in this area. I remember getting into trouble with sports analogies before... I won't go there again.. there is the forum police to deal with..

This is obviously not about you, but rather Tony and he is the one that brought up golf in the paper you posted for us to read. Since he was loosely making a comparison between the two sports, I thought maybe we could continue it. So, do you agree/disagree that golf allows for a different club depending on the situation at hand?

eg8r

 

[Tom In Cincy]

This is obviously not about you, but rather Tony and he is the one that brought up golf in the paper you posted for us to read. Since he was loosely making a comparison between the two sports, I thought maybe we could continue it. So, do you agree/disagree that golf allows for a different club depending on the situation at hand?

eg8r

Yes, I agree. Golf allows for a different club to be used depending on the situation at hand. That is in the rules for golf.

Are we using analogies again?

NO JUMP Cues. <----- my opinion

 

[T411]

I am not sure what you point is except for piddly arguing. I said "we" meaning the people on the board discussing the topic here on the baord.

Piddly arguing I think that's what we are all doing if U want to call it that. Right? My point is that I am sure that Tony has debated/discussed this and did not just make a ego tripping decision like some seem to think.

Still once again, not sure what your point is...Tony said he would debate it. If he would, why not do it here since there is plenty of interest on the board and this is where John has called his bluff.

I do not think Tony is bluffing.
If I may add, I think U understand my points, my opinion on this subject just is not the same as yours so I may do some more piddly arguing.

NO JUMP CUES!

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Wow, you got me there. You only referred John, however further in your post you have referred me. My point is that while you were replying to John, you were meaning it for everyone that read it. Anyone that wants to debate call John. Am I correct?

Just to get this straight, you are not worried about damage to the tables, correct? You are fine with jump shots, as long as no jump cue was used? I just want to get this out there because in your opening post, you mentioned you agreed with everything Tony had mentioned and he had brought up table damage. In your above quote you mention nothing of the demise of the jump shot, so I am guessing the damage is not the issue, whereas upon closer inspection the issue is the fact that jump shots allow another player another option of getting out of a poorly played safety.

eg8r

Thanks eg8r, I know if you bring this up, someone else might be thinking about it also.

Two reasons to use a jump shot.
1. Your opponent plays safe. "hooked".
2. Poor position shot, "hooked".

The consequence for the opponent playing a safe is the same as a bad shot for position.

Damage is an issue.

Jump cues only promote more damage to the cloth.

 

[yobagua]

Hey has any one ever seen Neils Feijen use a jump cue! He is so good that he will push out to a hook and when you give up the shot he'll come out with the jump cue and jump the ball and draw to perfect position. He is so good with that damn thing he should be banned. LOL! Just joking of course. I think it is exciting. But of course I think this is one of the reasons people would like to ban it. I just think it will be around and get over it. Its going to be with us. Let the players decide.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Hey has any one ever seen Neils Feijen use a jump cue! He is so good that he will push out to a hook and when you give up the shot he'll come out with the jump cue and jump the ball and draw to perfect position. He is so good with that damn thing he should be banned. LOL! Just joking of course.

Rafael Martinez does the same thing with his full cue (pushes to a jump shot). It's a joke how close he can jump a ball with his full cue.

 

[instroke]

Since the shorter jump cues have been banned, I can see a full size jump cue coming out soon.
Just have a long plastic handle with removable weight bolts.
Break with it and take the bolts out to jump.
Now, if Tony bans JUMPING altogether....

Well this is kind of hard since there are NO equipment definitions on the USPPA website, at least none that I could find. So what "is" a jump cue. Does the USPPA use the "incompetent" (paraphrasing from Mr. Anigoni's letter) BCA's specifications to define what is and isn't allowed? What if I choose to play my whole match with a 41" cue that has a rock hard tip on it? Is this allowed? You see where this goes. Either ban the jump shot or leave it alone.

The only criteria ought to be whether the cue used does any damage to the other equipment and as has been pointed out here the jump cue does not damage the table or the balls. IF any damage IS done then it certainly is less than the same shots performed with a full cue.

John

 

[T411]

Well this is kind of hard since there are NO equipment definitions on the USPPA website, at least none that I could find. So what "is" a jump cue. Does the USPPA use the "incompetent" (paraphrasing from Mr. Anigoni's letter) BCA's specifications to define what is and isn't allowed? What if I choose to play my whole match with a 41" cue that has a rock hard tip on it? Is this allowed? You see where this goes. Either ban the jump shot or leave it alone.
The only criteria ought to be whether the cue used does any damage to the other equipment and as has been pointed out here the jump cue does not damage the table or the balls. IF any damage IS done then it certainly is less than the same shots performed with a full cue.

John

John, would you really be happy if the jump shot was banned?

 

[nfty9er]

jump cues

Note that it was NOT Tony Annigoni who "released" the ban "to the world". Per Tony's e-mail to me, Tom posted a preliminary version (very close to the final version). The actual "public" announcement will probably be via the March issue of "On The Wire". In the meantime, many USPPA members knew it was coming.

Troy

LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT. IT WAS NOT TONY WHO RELEASED THE BAN? THEN
WHAT IS THE "PRESS RELEASE" ON THIS AZ SITE,POSTED ON FEB.4
ANNOUNCING THE BAN AND SIGNED BY USPPA MANAGEMENT. THE ONLY USPPA MANAGEMENT I KNOW OF IS TONY ANNIGONI. THE MANAGING PARTNER, GENE STARY HAS BEEN RELEGATED TO A MINOR PLAYER. AND YOU ALSO CLAIM THE PRESS RELEASE ON AZBILLIARDS IS NOT A PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT. IT IS MORE PUBLIC THAN ON THE WIRE. IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE IT WAS TONY WHO RELEASED IT TO THE WORLD AS THIS SITE IS DEFINITELY MORE WORLD WIDE. I SUGGEST YOU INVESTIGATE BEFORE POSTING AS FACT YOUR STATEMENTS.

 

[instroke]

John, would you really be happy if the jump shot was banned?

As a businessperson who has invested a lot of money and time into the jump cues I would not be very happy to see jump cues or the jump shot banned. As long as there is a jump shot then people will try and develop cues to make them easier. Pandora's box is open.

As a player I could care less as long as my opponent has to abide by the same rules. I could live without the jump shot. I would like to see the rules changed so that lucky safes are not rewarded with ball in hand.

Either way there should be a rules committee composed of representatives from all major player organizations which establishes the rules for everyone. The WAY the game is played shouldn't be different in California and New York because of the rules.

John

 

[eg8r]

Yes, I agree. Golf allows for a different club to be used depending on the situation at hand. That is in the rules for golf.

Are we using analogies again?

NO JUMP Cues. <----- my opinion

I am simply following along the same lines as Tony had started.

Since you seem to be unable to see the difference between this post and the other one you cannot let go of, I will gladly explain it for you, just ask.

eg8r

 

[eg8r]

I am not sure what you point is except for piddly arguing. I said "we" meaning the people on the board discussing the topic here on the baord.

Piddly arguing I think that's what we are all doing if U want to call it that. Right? My point is that I am sure that Tony has debated/discussed this and did not just make a ego tripping decision like some seem to think.

Still once again, not sure what your point is...Tony said he would debate it. If he would, why not do it here since there is plenty of interest on the board and this is where John has called his bluff.

I do not think Tony is bluffing.
If I may add, I think U understand my points, my opinion on this subject just is not the same as yours so I may do some more piddly arguing.

NO JUMP CUES!

The piddly arguing was not about the thread, but rather a post of mine that you tried argue who "all the people" were. It was piddly. The thread is about the use of jump cues and I make reference to the people on the board and you wanted to make some argument about my use of the word "we". That was piddly.

eg8r

 

[thebigdog]

Rafael Martinez does the same thing with his full cue (pushes to a jump shot). It's a joke how close he can jump a ball with his full cue.

This is the reason why I agree with banning jump cues, a guy like Rafael has learned to jump like that with a full cue. The jump cue allows someone to take that advantage away just with a purchase of a jump cue and about 10 minutes of practice.
I withnessed Rafael doing this first hand when he and my father played 10 ahead for $1000, Rafael pushed out into jump shots all night and I would say that 90% of the time he made the shot and then ran out. This was one of the most impressive things I had ever seen, if my dad had a jump cue Rafael would not have been able to use this tactic that he obviously has taken a great deal of time to perfect.
People can say what they want about practicing with jump cues, that it is not so easy, but it really is and not much practice is needed with them.
One last point I read someone say that they needed to use jump cues because they are a short person........ Rafael Martinez is 5'5" at best.

 

[eg8r]

Thanks eg8r, I know if you bring this up, someone else might be thinking about it also.

Two reasons to use a jump shot.
1. Your opponent plays safe. "hooked".
2. Poor position shot, "hooked".

The consequence for the opponent playing a safe is the same as a bad shot for position.

Damage is an issue.

Jump cues only promote more damage to the cloth.

If damage was a real issue, then you would be more worried with eliminating the damaging factor, in this case the jump shot. Not the cue. The cue does not promote damage, any more than the breakshot.

Tell me this, how many tables at Hard Times have more cloth damage due to jump shots than break shots?

eg8r

 

[Tom In Cincy]

I am simply following along the same lines as Tony had started.

Since you seem to be unable to see the difference between this post and the other one you cannot let go of, I will gladly explain it for you, just ask.

eg8r

Please explain you opinion about the difference.

I am curious.. what post and 'the other one' you are referring.

You do a great job of asking these types of questions.

Would you also add to the discussion your opinion of the JUMP cue issue and reasons for and against?

Your opinion is worth just as much as mine or anyone else's.

 

[T411]

The piddly arguing was not about the thread, but rather a post of mine that you tried argue who "all the people" were. It was piddly. The thread is about the use of jump cues and I make reference to the people on the board and you wanted to make some argument about my use of the word "we". That was piddly.

eg8r

eg8r, U R missing my point of what I was saying. I think most people understood what I was saying, even if they don't agree. No hard feelings.

 

[instroke]

Thanks eg8r, I know if you bring this up, someone else might be thinking about it also.

Two reasons to use a jump shot.
1. Your opponent plays safe. "hooked".
2. Poor position shot, "hooked".

The consequence for the opponent playing a safe is the same as a bad shot for position.

Damage is an issue.

Jump cues only promote more damage to the cloth.

Tom,

What specific damage is done to the cloth? Please examine the physics of the jump shot as performed with a jump cue. You have a nine ounce cue hitting a 3 ounce ball into a 500lb slate bed covered with a cloth that is specially twisted and braided to resist tearing and pilling. There is no way that the round ball can tear the cloth. Even if the tip were to hit the cloth, which it does not, it is unlikely to damage the cloth. About the only thing that happens is that a small friction mark is left behind which easily brushes out. So how does a jump cue promote damage to the cloth?

If you or anyone else wants to bet me then I will prove that normal jump shots do not harm the cloth. If you want to put up $5000 I will come to Hard Times and perform 500 jump shots on any table you want and the table will be no worse for the wear after those 500 shots than before I started. In fact, if we pick a table that has been in use for several months I will bet another $5000 that most people won't even be able to see a difference in the before and after conditions.

Considering that most matches might have maybe five jump shots in them how many matches would it take to get five hundred jump shots played on any particular table? How many games would that be, say an average of ten games per match would be something like 1000 games with about ten thousand shots. Of those 1000 games there will be 1000 break shots each of which will probably have considerably more force applied to the cueball and the object ball than just about any jump shot.

This thing about damaging the table is a red herring. Sure, we have all seen the exhibition tables at shows which look like the lunar surface. Well, these tables have thousands of jump shots per hour performed on them. And even after that most of the friction spots came out after a good brushing. I have personally played sets for hundreds on my jump shot table at the BCA/VNEA with ZERO complaints about the condition of the table.

Please provide some PROOF, a picture with a description of what happened, an affadavit or something to back up your assertion that the use of jump cues damages the table. Please provide some kind of statistical data that they do. IF they did and it were epidemic then the billiard rooms would have banned them and the BCA would have outlawed them. I did an exhibition for dozens of BCA referees and SHOWED them that even with excessive force the jump cue did NO damage to the table. They left fully satisfied that the cue presented NO danger to the cloth or balls.

I mean, do you really think that room owners across the country are stupid? I could cite a long list of successful room owners who sell dozens of jump cues annually. Do you really believe that they will sell a product that tears up their cloth? Do you honestly believe that I would risk my reputation by selling something that tears up the cloth? If jump cues were as bad for the equipment as you make them out to be then they wouldn't be on the market. That's simple economics and market logic. Room owners wouldn't stand for it.

Please just think about it.

John

 

[instroke]

This is the reason why I agree with banning jump cues, a guy like Rafael has learned to jump like that with a full cue. The jump cue allows someone to take that advantage away just with a purchase of a jump cue and about 10 minutes of practice.
I withnessed Rafael doing this first hand when he and my father played 10 ahead for $1000, Rafael pushed out into jump shots all night and I would say that 90% of the time he made the shot and then ran out. This was one of the most impressive things I had ever seen, if my dad had a jump cue Rafael would not have been able to use this tactic that he obviously has taken a great deal of time to perfect.
People can say what they want about practicing with jump cues, that it is not so easy, but it really is and not much practice is needed with them.
One last point I read someone say that they needed to use jump cues because they are a short person........ Rafael Martinez is 5'5" at best.

So what. Having a jump cue does not negate Rafael's arsenal. Rafael is just betting that he can make the shot and you can't. Whether you use a jump cue or your full cue you might be able to make it. I will bet you that I can give Rafael a regular playing cue with which he WILL NOT be able to make the same jump shots as he does with the cue he is used to. What you don't understand is that jumping with a full cue is a combination between super talent and the right cue.

The question I have is HOW GOOD would Rafael be if he uses a jump cue in addition to his regular cue?

You should have bought your dad a jump cue

John