USPPA & Jump Cue Ban.. by Tony Annigoni

[titanic]

Is Tony smarter than you think?

In the old days of pool,room owners would ask a question like " Who do you think was the best straight pool player,Mosconi or Greenleaf ?"

That would lead to hours or even days of opinions from everone in the joint who wanted to express theirs!!

Or a room owner might say starting next month we are going to close an hour earlier. Anything announced was immediately a topic of discussion. If subsequently in the next few days the scuttlebut seemed to be most players wanted the place open for whatever reason that decision might be reversed.

A favorite sandwich could be used in the same way or a different soft drink or beer or whatever.

But there was never any discussion about rules or equipment etc.

Every pool hall had a No Gambling Sign. That was for the protection of the owner for legal reasons.

Other signs were different. No Masse Shots was strictly enforced. In the town I grew up in I had to travel to San Francisco or Oakland to witness that.

There was a sign One Foot On The Floor strictly enforced.

There was a sign No Whistling strictly enforced.

There was also another sign No Ladies Allowed, also for the largest part an enforced rule.

In the 1960s another sign came up No Transistor Radios Allowed.

And every pool room I was ever in always had a sign.....HOUSE RULES.

There are so many ways to interpret the BCA,BBQ,RFD and XYZ rules that it was necessary to ask how do you play here?

This is all leading up to one final question that I have for all those people who for whatever their reason is ,want to keep the jump cue.

Since the most logical reason that has been expressed is a chronological explanation of the evolution of pool from the leather tip to the jump cue how would you feel about this?

New at the BCA this year the latest innovation which will put pocket billiards into the 26th Century.
Get your Dial A Cue at our booth at the convention.

This latest development takes all the guesswork out of the game.Our cue is a standard 19 oz 51" maple shaft with a birdseye maple butt with Irish linen wrap.

The subtle difference is a digitally mastered,laser guided and sighted device that will find you the exact angle to pocket balls. Cut balls backwards, never miss another bank.!!

When you step up to the table you will be unstoppable .

Think of it run 2000 or 5000 balls in straight pool. Run 8 and out every time in One Pocket.

We promise you will never miss again with our new cue.

There is also a trigger feature which allows you to have perfect speed.

Would all of you accept that as just further development and technology in the sport of Pocket Billiards?
I know that is quite an exageration but I hope it causes you to take another look at where that jump cue is leading to.

Titanic

PS
To Tom in Cincy

I hear Ronnie Allen comes to Hard Times in Sac to play in a tournament there on occasion. Is it on a reular basis?
Please Email me at JMahan3714@HOTMAIL.COM

 

[Top Spin]

How can the jump shot be banned? Imagine it-like you went back to the bar and played against weekend warriors that expect you to play "call shot" - every kiss, every bank, etc. How is one to determine if the cue ball leaves the table during a shot? How about the break? How about a swerve shot where you HAVE to hit down into the CB. A masse? Who is to say the CB doesn't leave the cloth for even an instant on any of these shots?
My point is banning the jump shot or having some rule that states the cue ball cannot leave the cloth on its way to the OB would interfere with too many other parts of the game.
As long as I've been playing, the jump shot has been perfectly legal, as long as the shot is a strike down into the CB, rather than a "scoop" from below (and the reason for THAT, I was told, was that the CB could not come in contact with the ferrule ). Now what has happened is that equipment has been developed to do it a little more effectively, thats all. Chalk it up to another (like layered tips and worsted cloth) evolution in the game. I suppose the rules could change to increase the min. length of the cue, but as Mr. Purdy suggests, technology will not be denied. I think the jump cue, in some form or another, is here to stay. As for wear and tear on the cloth - yes, the CB does leave a "burn" mark, but then so can the break shot and others.
Just my opinion, but I think the reason Efron doesn't jump is probably due more to a natural resistance to change and lack of need, rather than anything else. He's practised and perfected the kick shot and his bank skills over a number of decades. It works reeeeel good. Why switch? Same with Earl.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

3 oz. balls? they must be real easy to jump

John,

Would you agree that it causes abnormal wear?

As far as betting you... If I were to take you up on your offer, it would be with the stipulation that someone else would be the final judge, and that your proof would also be judged.

Your opinion would not count, only the decision of the person judging would be final.

Interested?

and, by the way... here we play with 6 ounce cue and object balls. Arkansas might be different.. from the rest of the pool playing world.

Tom,

What specific damage is done to the cloth? Please examine the physics of the jump shot as performed with a jump cue. You have a nine ounce cue hitting a 3 ounce ball into a 500lb slate bed covered with a cloth that is specially twisted and braided to resist tearing and pilling. There is no way that the round ball can tear the cloth. Even if the tip were to hit the cloth, which it does not, it is unlikely to damage the cloth. About the only thing that happens is that a small friction mark is left behind which easily brushes out. So how does a jump cue promote damage to the cloth?

If you or anyone else wants to bet me then I will prove that normal jump shots do not harm the cloth. If you want to put up $5000 I will come to Hard Times and perform 500 jump shots on any table you want and the table will be no worse for the wear after those 500 shots than before I started. In fact, if we pick a table that has been in use for several months I will bet another $5000 that most people won't even be able to see a difference in the before and after conditions.

Considering that most matches might have maybe five jump shots in them how many matches would it take to get five hundred jump shots played on any particular table? How many games would that be, say an average of ten games per match would be something like 1000 games with about ten thousand shots. Of those 1000 games there will be 1000 break shots each of which will probably have considerably more force applied to the cueball and the object ball than just about any jump shot.

This thing about damaging the table is a red herring. Sure, we have all seen the exhibition tables at shows which look like the lunar surface. Well, these tables have thousands of jump shots per hour performed on them. And even after that most of the friction spots came out after a good brushing. I have personally played sets for hundreds on my jump shot table at the BCA/VNEA with ZERO complaints about the condition of the table.

Please provide some PROOF, a picture with a description of what happened, an affadavit or something to back up your assertion that the use of jump cues damages the table. Please provide some kind of statistical data that they do. IF they did and it were epidemic then the billiard rooms would have banned them and the BCA would have outlawed them. I did an exhibition for dozens of BCA referees and SHOWED them that even with excessive force the jump cue did NO damage to the table. They left fully satisfied that the cue presented NO danger to the cloth or balls.

I mean, do you really think that room owners across the country are stupid? I could cite a long list of successful room owners who sell dozens of jump cues annually. Do you really believe that they will sell a product that tears up their cloth? Do you honestly believe that I would risk my reputation by selling something that tears up the cloth? If jump cues were as bad for the equipment as you make them out to be then they wouldn't be on the market. That's simple economics and market logic. Room owners wouldn't stand for it.

Please just think about it.

John

 

[instroke]

Since the most logical reason that has been expressed is a chronological explanation of the evolution of pool from the leather tip to the jump cue how would you feel about this?

New at the BCA this year the latest innovation which will put pocket billiards into the 26th Century.
Get your Dial A Cue at our booth at the convention.

This latest development takes all the guesswork out of the game.Our cue is a standard 19 oz 51" maple shaft with a birdseye maple butt with Irish linen wrap.

The subtle difference is a digitally mastered,laser guided and sighted device that will find you the exact angle to pocket balls. Cut balls backwards, never miss another bank.!!

When you step up to the table you will be unstoppable .

Think of it run 2000 or 5000 balls in straight pool. Run 8 and out every time in One Pocket.

We promise you will never miss again with our new cue.

There is also a trigger feature which allows you to have perfect speed.

Would all of you accept that as just further development and technology in the sport of Pocket Billiards?
I know that is quite an exageration but I hope it causes you to take another look at where that jump cue is leading to.

Titanic

QUOTE]

Okay, fair enough. A couple questions then. 1. Does the jump cue take the shot for you? 2. Does holding a jump cue guarantee you a successful result?

If such a cue were invented then there would be no skill left and subsequently no satisfaction gained from making the balls disappear. The high comes from approaching an inert object and making it behave in the way you want it to through your skill. As long as the player the one who is ultimately responsible for whether the shot is successful or not then pool will have an appeal. The jump does for the jump shot what a chalked tip does for spin - it make it possible. Nothing more nothing less. There is not a cue in the world that can make me apply as much spin as Semih Sayginer. There is not a jump cue in the world that will make me as accurate as Earl Strickland.

IF the jump cue really did the work I would agree with you. After watching several thousand people trying out jump cues I have to say that the evidence is stacked against your view.

John

 

[instroke]

John,

Would you agree that it causes abnormal wear?

No. As I said the spots are almost always removable with a good cleaning.

As far as betting you... If I were to take you up on your offer, it would be with the stipulation that someone else would be the final judge, and that your proof would also be judged.

Your opinion would not count, only the decision of the person judging would be final.

Interested?

Of course I am interested, I wouldn't make the challenge otherwise. The loser must bear all expenses of the bet including hotel, flights video equipment, judges accomodations and the entire amount must be placed in escrow before the contest. We both agree to be bound by the independant panel's decision. I expect to be able to negotiate the terms and once agreed upon be bound by them.

The difference is that I know what I am doing. I have done this often enough to know that I have a lock. I have won more room owners over with similar bets, albeit much smaller, than I can count. ALL of them were forced to admit that their idea that jump shots using a jump cue was harmful to the table is wrong and most of them became good customers.



and, by the way... here we play with 6 ounce cue and object balls. Arkansas might be different.. from the rest of the pool playing world.

Yeah you're right, I was thinking of the difference in weights. It should have said a nine ounce cue hitting a six ounce ball.

John

 

[Tom In Cincy]

John,

A list of judges that you would allow might be helpful.

Mine would consist of the cloth manufacturers engineers/designers. Any of them would do. I would also like to see what the slate experts would say about the impact results.

Who would you add to the list? or is this list acceptable?

 

[instroke]

John,

A list of judges that you would allow might be helpful.

Mine would consist of the cloth manufacturers engineers/designers. Any of them would do. I would also like to see what the slate experts would say about the impact results.

Who would you add to the list? or is this list acceptable?

I would add a panel of normal players and room owners. I would videotape the table before and after and have the rolls documented. Then we would see if there is any difference before and after as to how the table plays.

I would be more than happy to see the cloth manufacturers and slate experts in on this.

John

 

[instroke]

No Bet :-(

Well boys, the ultimate authority has spoken. My wife says I have gone too far in this two day adventure. She says that I am a fool for even thinking of betting 10 dimes when there is NO long term benefit for me. She says that it is stupid enough to have participated in this thread when I don't even own the company anymore and dumber to want to bet on it.

So in the interest of marital bliss I am signing off this thread for now. IF Tony should drop in to debate the points I made then I'll know it and return to finish what I started with him. Otherwise I think I have said everything at least twice.

Bye,

John

 

[Jimmy M.]

Well boys, the ultimate authority has spoken. My wife says I have gone too far in this two day adventure.

I'm not asking this to be a jerk, I'm actually being sincere when I ask, will you still play anyone on this board? I'd still like to play the next time we're at the same event. I even promise not to argue about jump cues!

 

[instroke]

I'm not asking this to be a jerk, I'm actually being sincere when I ask, will you still play anyone on this board? I'd still like to play the next time we're at the same event. I even promise not to argue about jump cues!

Absolutely. Now that I have sold the company I have more time to play. You have action all day. Just be prepared to adjust if it's out of line. As long as I feel like I have a chance I'll keep playing and conversely I'll probably keep giving up weight until I go broke.

John

 

[eg8r]

Please explain you opinion about the difference.

I am curious.. what post and 'the other one' you are referring. What other post do you think I am talking about? You are referring to it when you ask, "Are we using analogies again?". Well I guess I thought you were. I was referring back to the post in which you used basketball as an example, however did not approve someone else doing the same thing with basketball. The difference between that thread and this one, is that Tony started with the golf example, and I continued it, with no recourse becasue of it.

You do a great job of asking these types of questions.

Would you also add to the discussion your opinion of the JUMP cue issue and reasons for and against? I am not sure if I have given my opinion to it on this board or not. So here goes...I own a bunjee jumper and a bunjee jump/break cue. I have used them before and I am quite proficient with them. I have used mine for a couple years now and I have noticed that there are only two types of opponents when I use them (these are the ones that leave a crappy safe or get lucky on a miss and leave me safe). If I jump successfully, hit the object but sell out, all I hear is praise from the opponent. They are ecstatic that I chose the jump and sold out. The other would be when I make the ball, and then the same person will be complaining about how little skill it took to make the ball and how I cheapen the game for using it. With that being said, you seem to be one of those two, and this is without ever meeting you and playing. Now for my opinion...I think they should stay. The only intelligent way to remove them from the game is to eliminate the jump shot. I would be fine if damage was left out of the "position paper", but it is blatantly obvious Tony does not care at all about damage because he is still allowing jump shots with playing cues. The damage is the same. There is more damage on the table from break shots and that damage is stretched all the way across the line. At least with the jump shot (which probably occurs 5 times the whole weekend on that one table) the damage is spread out all over. As a player in a tournament, I do not care either way. If we are all playing by the same rules then that is fair. I do not use the jump cue all that often as I enjoy the feeling I get from successfully making a good kick shot.

Your opinion is worth just as much as mine or anyone else's. You are darn right. Heck you are so correct, that I did not need you to point it out.

I have a jump cue because it simplifies the actual "jump" however it does nothing as far as aim and control. Like I said in my "wordy" quote above, I do not use it regularly, and generally only pull it out if someone wants to see a jump shot. I rather kick at the balls.

My main issue was with the damage portion of the "position paper". It is laughable at best and clearly shows Tony was running out of arguments for defense so he started reaching. If he really cared about damage, then jump shots as a whole would be eliminated. As far as integrity, that is also pretty weak, as he is still using the Texas Express rules. Like BIH is helping restore the integrity of the game.

The problem is that Tony is picking and choosing which part of the integrity he would like to keep and which part he would like to expell. No problem with this since it is his business. I am sure if this was all a real problem the players would quit and Tony would reassess the situation. I firmly believe the players are the only ones that make the final decision on this rule (by not playing anymore), however they seem to be pretty hungry for the competition that they are going to let Tony decide for them what is best. Tony is the boss and he makes the decisions. If the players are sheep, then Tony gets what he wants, otherwise the players will eventually get what they want.

eg8r

 

[eg8r]

eg8r, U R missing my point of what I was saying. This is absolutely possible.I think most people understood what I was saying, even if they don't agree. No hard feelings.

There are never hard feelings. For me this is just a message board. I don't get real heated over anything on the boards (although sometimes it does not come across that way).

eg8r

 

[eg8r]

How can the jump shot be banned? Imagine it-like you went back to the bar and played against weekend warriors that expect you to play "call shot" - every kiss, every bank, etc. How is one to determine if the cue ball leaves the table during a shot? How about the break? How about a swerve shot where you HAVE to hit down into the CB. A masse? Who is to say the CB doesn't leave the cloth for even an instant on any of these shots?

I would suggest that when someone mentions banning the jump shot they are referring to jumping over an obstructing ball. When someone shoots a masse do you really look at the player and say, "nice jump shot"? No, I am sure you don't, so why bring up something so piddly?

eg8r

 

[eg8r]

Interested?

Of course I am interested, I wouldn't make the challenge otherwise.

LOL, almost sounded like Tom was making the challenge. I am guessing this will not come to fruition, but it would be surprising to see Tom put up 5k of his own money on a chance he is correct.

eg8r

 

[sjm]

Position Play is Sacred

The biggest problem with the jump cue is this:

NOTHING IN POOL IS MORE SACRED THAN POSITION PLAY

The jump cue has reduced the penalty for poor position play, and that's really a shame, devaluing this great game because of it, not to mention making comparison of today's players with the old masters more difficult.

Another big problem I have with jump cues is that the great game of pool has never been one of situational equipment (with the obvious and logical exception of the break cue, which, by causing the tip of one's main playing cue to last longer, probably reduces the cost of playing pool over the long haul.)

I play with a 12mm tip, a shaft that isn't stiff, and a long ferrule. When a long, straight shot comes up, I might prefer to switch to a cue with a 13 1/2mm tip. When a masse comes up, I might prefer to switch to a cue with a shorter ferrule. And on some shots, it would be nice to be able to switch to a cue with a stiffer shaft. I'm not allowed to make these equipment changes, however, as pool requires that you master all the shots with one cue. It's a rule that not only makes the game more compelling and challenging, but ensures that the cost of playing doesn't get out of control, helping to maximizing the likelihood that pool will remain accessible to people at all income levels.

Some say "if you don't favor jumping, don't jump", a comment that carries an implication that one can be a top player without it. There is some truth to this, but whenever an opponent that can jump plays a "push" into a jump, those that can't or choose not to jump are unfairly victimized.

Finally, though the jump can be exciting when executed well, is there anything that makes a pool player look worse than when cue or object balls are knocked off of the table. Pool balls going off the table has always been the film industry's way of quickly defining a pool player as inept, and for good reason.

Just my thoughts.

 

[eg8r]

Some say "if you don't favor jumping, don't jump", a comment that carries an implication that one can be a top player without it. There is some truth to this, but whenever an opponent that can jump plays a "push" into a jump, those that can't or choose not to jump are unfairly victimized.

I am not sure if you are joking around or kidding, but I thought this was hilarious. Do you feel the same way for the poor sap who does not kick well, however continuously finds himself locked up behind an obstructing ball?

Victimized. That was hilarious.

eg8r

 

[sjm]

Not Kidding, Well Maybe A Little....

My intent was to refute the claim that you can get by without jumping in today's competitive environment. No doubt, my example of why may have been extreme, even funny or hilarious, as you suggest. In noting that such victimization is unfair, I really only mean that jumping is not a basic pool skill and not a traditional pool skill, so it is both ordinary and excusable that the victim lacks this skill. Kicking, pocketing, defense, et al, are time honored and critical skills of playing pool, and any price one pays for shortcomings in these areas are completely fair. Happy to give you a chuckle, anyway. Have a great day.

 

[eg8r]

My intent was to refute the claim that you can get by without jumping in today's competitive environment. No doubt, my example of why may have been extreme, even funny or hilarious, as you suggest. In noting that such victimization is unfair, I really only mean that jumping is not a basic pool skill and not a traditional pool skill, so it is both ordinary and excusable that the victim lacks this skill. Kicking, pocketing, defense, et al, are time honored and critical skills of playing pool, and any price one pays for shortcomings in these areas are completely fair. Happy to give you a chuckle, anyway. Have a great day.

I would say that in the pool world today, it is very ordinary to choose a jump shot over a kick shot. The jump shot did not arrive when the jump cues got here, and they have been around quite a while.

eg8r

 

[thebigdog]

Absolutely. Now that I have sold the company I have more time to play. You have action all day. Just be prepared to adjust if it's out of line. As long as I feel like I have a chance I'll keep playing and conversely I'll probably keep giving up weight until I go broke.

John

I don't think Jimmy has asked for any weight, I wouldn't start off by offering any either unless you want to put yourself in a hole. I am not trying to talk sh#% to you, I just know how Jimmy plays and I wouldn't offer weight to someone who isn't asking for it to begin with.

 

[instroke]

I don't think Jimmy has asked for any weight, I wouldn't start off by offering any either unless you want to put yourself in a hole. I am not trying to talk sh#% to you, I just know how Jimmy plays and I wouldn't offer weight to someone who isn't asking for it to begin with.

What I meant is that I am willing to adjust if it's out of line and I expect the same courtesy. I was being funny when I said I probably keep adjusting until I go broke.

John