USPPA & Jump Cue Ban.. by Tony Annigoni

Jump Cues


  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
My personal opinion is that jump cues should not be used...

However, peoples personal opinions about the matter don't give them the right to stomp on John's throat. He has made some good points about the use of the jump cue.. This is a discussion forum, and that is exactly what is being done.

I don't understand the reasoning behind comparing pool to golf though..as has been stated before in a post in this thread (don't remember where or by whom), its a different game with different rules..its like saying why can't we use our hands in soccer, they do in basketball...different game different rules.

It has been hotly talked about, of who is right and who is wrong between Tony and John.. I don't believe either can be wrong..Its just a matter of opinion.
 
Jump Cues

BeeMan said:
My personal opinion is that jump cues should not be used...

However, peoples personal opinions about the matter don't give them the right to stomp on John's throat. He has made some good points about the use of the jump cue.. This is a discussion forum, and that is exactly what is being done.

I don't understand the reasoning behind comparing pool to golf though..as has been stated before in a post in this thread (don't remember where or by whom), its a different game with different rules..its like saying why can't we use our hands in soccer, they do in basketball...different game different rules.

It has been hotly talked about, of who is right and who is wrong between Tony and John.. I don't believe either can be wrong..Its just a matter of opinion.

THE DIFFERENCE IS HOWEVER, TONY USED HIS OPINION AND BANNED JUMP CUES FROM A WHOLE ORGANIZATION WITH NO INPUT AND OUT OF THE BLUE WHEREAS I DONT THINK JOHN HAS THAT POWER
 
nfty9er said:
THE DIFFERENCE IS HOWEVER, TONY USED HIS OPINION AND BANNED JUMP CUES FROM A WHOLE ORGANIZATION WITH NO INPUT AND OUT OF THE BLUE WHEREAS I DONT THINK JOHN HAS THAT POWER

He did it out of the blue?? With absolutely no previous warning or announcement??
can i get a confirmation on this?
 
jump cues

BeeMan said:
He did it out of the blue?? With absolutely no previous warning or announcement??
can i get a confirmation on this?

well lets clarify the announcement he snuck in on azbilliards post is the first us usppa members heard of it, i found out word of mouth, then read the press release by him. It is fully implemented by Dec. so I guess you would call that a warning. The problem is he has no one to answer to.
 
instroke said:
The words factual and topical come to mind for me. As in how about stating a position based on facts and staying on topic. What is going on is that we have a thread on a newsgroup which is a furtherance of the jump cue debate. If you don't want to read it then skip the thread - it's easy just bypass it and go on to the next one.

John

To be quite honest, I DIDN'T read it. I saw the length of your two posts and thought, "holy sh*t"! As far as the woofing goes, I would love to play you some. I have no plans to be in Arkansas any time soon though, so the next time we're at the same place at the same time, feel free to ask me to play. I work full-time, so I stay mainly on the west coast because it's hard for me to get enough time off to take long trips, but who knows, I might pop up somewhere close to where you are. I'll definitely be in Reno, and I'll probably be around in Vegas during the BCA tournament. Maybe we can play at one of those tournaments if you're around. Incidently, if you do happen to go to Reno, it will be the perfect opportunity to voice your opinions to Tony as he will certainly be there.
 
Hmm, funny that a ban on jump cues would illicit such responses.

1. John, you're not exactly an objective observer in this, so your OPINION doesn't carry a whole lot of weight, regardless of how long or erudite your stated opinion is.

2. Jump cues change the game, plain and simple. This is one of the few things I agree with Earl Strickland on. Do I have one? Hell yes. I'm not going to punish myself in tournaments where they're allowed (this is also one area I congratulate Earl for sticking to his moral guns - I couldn't do it). Why should I put in all the work to learn to jump with a full cue when I can use a gimmick stick to cut the learning time down to 10 minutes? That's literally how long it took for me to learn to jump over a full ball from 4 inches away with a jump cue.

3. Less skill (that's right, I said it) is required to jump out of a safe position than to kick. That doesn't mean I think that NO skill is involved, simply less. Much less. Nobody in their right mind thinks it's easier to kick than to jump, otherwise nobody would use a jump cue at all. People are constantly looking for shortcuts not to learn the difficult aspects of the game, and one of the quickest shortcuts to make the game easier is the jump cue.

4. Professional contests are meant to be a measure of skill. The most skillful player should win. Why should equipment meant to reduce the amount of skill needed be allowed? Can it successfully be argued that jump cues WERE NOT invented to reduce the skill needed to get out of safe positions? I don't think so.

5. Jump cues DO cause damage to the cloth. If somebody thinks they can jump, they're gonna do it. That may cause a ding or a mark in the cloth. How's this different from the marks left by breaking? Breaking generally only leaves marks along the headstring. Jumping can cause damage all over the playing surface. How's this different from jumping with a regular cue? Most people, if faced with a difficult jump, won't even try jumping with their regular cue, hence the table is protected. With a jump cue, that same shot might be tried 90% of the time.

6. The biggest problem with jump cues isn't the damage to the equipment, it's the changing of the game. When the Sardo first came out, lots of people heralded it as the greatest thing since leather tips. Now, since pros have learned how to manipulate the break to make balls and run out consistently, the Sardo is dumped on like Mel Gibson at a Jewish temple. First, the US Open moves the 9 to the spot. Then, breaking rules are changed to require 2 balls to pass the side pocket. What next, are we going to place speed limits on the break? If equipment has to cause the game to be changed, then the equipment shouldn't be used, which is exactly why the Sardo has fallen out of favor and more and more tournaments are banning it (see WPBA and WPA World Championships). The same thinking is beginning to be applied to jump cues (finally!) and I'm definitely in favor of that.

-djb
 
Golf has outlawed many clubs. There have been putters that have been outlawed, drivers that have been outlawed, and balls that have been outlawed. There are drivers and balls for that matter that can have the average joe hit the ball like Tiger Woods. There are cues out there that can have the average joe jump the ball like skilled pro player. :rolleyes: They R called jump cues :D ;)
 
DoomCue said:
Hmm, funny that a ban on jump cues would illicit such responses.

1. John, you're not exactly an objective observer in this, so your OPINION doesn't carry a whole lot of weight, regardless of how long or erudite your stated opinion is.

His opinion carrys as much weight as anyone elses. He simply answered each bullet as needed in his words. Does your opinion count for more?

2. Jump cues change the game, plain and simple. This is one of the few things I agree with Earl Strickland on. Do I have one? Hell yes. I'm not going to punish myself in tournaments where they're allowed (this is also one area I congratulate Earl for sticking to his moral guns - I couldn't do it). Why should I put in all the work to learn to jump with a full cue when I can use a gimmick stick to cut the learning time down to 10 minutes? That's literally how long it took for me to learn to jump over a full ball from 4 inches away with a jump cue.

Name ONE sport that the game isnt changing and evolving from time/equipment? As has been stated, tips/chaulk/rails/cloth have already changed the way the game is played. You have a jump cue, so you have supported the game. Has it changed your way of playing?


3. Less skill (that's right, I said it) is required to jump out of a safe position than to kick. That doesn't mean I think that NO skill is involved, simply less. Much less. Nobody in their right mind thinks it's easier to kick than to jump, otherwise nobody would use a jump cue at all. People are constantly looking for shortcuts not to learn the difficult aspects of the game, and one of the quickest shortcuts to make the game easier is the jump cue.

People that master the jump shots, took time to master it. I would assume that the same people can kick balls as well, only do to their efforts to learn it. One thing about skill, it has already been mentioned, but ALOT of people sell out when using their jump cues. These same sellouts would probably happen if kicking at them. Goes back to the principle of playing a decent safe.


4. Professional contests are meant to be a measure of skill. The most skillful player should win. Why should equipment meant to reduce the amount of skill needed be allowed? Can it successfully be argued that jump cues WERE NOT invented to reduce the skill needed to get out of safe positions? I don't think so.

So lets take away all the new equipment, including the cues that they use and toss bar 'sticks' into their hands then. Every sport equipment is changing, and pool is no different. I would argue that jump cues were invented to increase the jump percentages. People have jumped balls forever, and if you wanted to argue about it, I would say that having a jump cue will do less damage to the cloth than the same players using a playing cue to jump.


5. Jump cues DO cause damage to the cloth. If somebody thinks they can jump, they're gonna do it. That may cause a ding or a mark in the cloth. How's this different from the marks left by breaking? Breaking generally only leaves marks along the headstring. Jumping can cause damage all over the playing surface. How's this different from jumping with a regular cue? Most people, if faced with a difficult jump, won't even try jumping with their regular cue, hence the table is protected. With a jump cue, that same shot might be tried 90% of the time.

Marks happen all over the table. The marks from jump shots are random. If you can jump with a playing cue, you will have the same marks. Taking away the jump cue will not eliminate marks on the table. Marks happen for many different reasons. The type of CB will make marks, break shots make marks, power draw shots make marks, and yes even some of the kick shots will make marks.

6. The biggest problem with jump cues isn't the damage to the equipment, it's the changing of the game. When the Sardo first came out, lots of people heralded it as the greatest thing since leather tips. Now, since pros have learned how to manipulate the break to make balls and run out consistently, the Sardo is dumped on like Mel Gibson at a Jewish temple. First, the US Open moves the 9 to the spot. Then, breaking rules are changed to require 2 balls to pass the side pocket. What next, are we going to place speed limits on the break? If equipment has to cause the game to be changed, then the equipment shouldn't be used, which is exactly why the Sardo has fallen out of favor and more and more tournaments are banning it (see WPBA and WPA World Championships). The same thinking is beginning to be applied to jump cues (finally!) and I'm definitely in favor of that.

Since so many are manipulating the break to pocket balls, I am guessing that their are many pros/players that cant make balls that are suddenly a pro because of the Sardo? Seems that the same players that found the spot to hit the rack with the sardo are doing the same thing with manual racks. Maybe its because they practice?

-djb

I believe that the jump shot is a part of the game. I can jump balls with a playing cue, or a jump cue. I believe that new equipment brings people into the game, money into the game. The jump shot is exciting for the general playing public to watch.

If the Tony wants to take the jump cue out of his tourneys/league, then thats fine. We deal with local tourneys with different rules etc. This is just another example of why pool will never be uniformed and that a unified Mens tour will never happen. Pool will never gain the sponsor ships and endorsements needed to improve.

One question that has been asked, but hasnt been attempted to answer yet is: Since jumps arent outlawed, and its the jump cue that is outlawed, can a person jump with their jump/break cue if its not broke down?
 
DoomCue said:
Hmm, funny that a ban on jump cues would illicit such responses.

1. John, you're not exactly an objective observer in this, so your OPINION doesn't carry a whole lot of weight, regardless of how long or erudite your stated opinion is.

I disagree. I have 24 years of pool playing experience and I have played all over the world. I have owned a poolroom with eight $5000 tables in them. I have been involved in leagues and league teams for over 12 years. I have been in the billiard industry for 15 years. And as stated previously I have performed well over 100,000 jump shots and instructed over 100 people. If nothing else, my experience qualifies me to be a part of this discussion. Agree or disagree, my opinion on this topic at least goes in the expert category.

2. Jump cues change the game, plain and simple. This is one of the few things I agree with Earl Strickland on. Do I have one? Hell yes. I'm not going to punish myself in tournaments where they're allowed (this is also one area I congratulate Earl for sticking to his moral guns - I couldn't do it). Why should I put in all the work to learn to jump with a full cue when I can use a gimmick stick to cut the learning time down to 10 minutes? That's literally how long it took for me to learn to jump over a full ball from 4 inches away with a jump cue.

I think that this is the biggest argument. What you don't get is that the jump cue is just a tool engineered to make the jump shot easier. I have a Scruggs Cue that I can jump with almost as good as with a jump cue. If you were to see me using that cue you would conclude that I am an accomplished jumper. When I try the same shots with my Layani you would conclude that I need a lot of practice to learn to jump. The point is that the jump cue eliminates the differences in cues and allows anyone the opportunity to jump. Now it it is truly a question of skill when using the jump cue. Of course the jump cue changes the game and it's for the better.

3. Less skill (that's right, I said it) is required to jump out of a safe position than to kick. That doesn't mean I think that NO skill is involved, simply less. Much less. Nobody in their right mind thinks it's easier to kick than to jump, otherwise nobody would use a jump cue at all. People are constantly looking for shortcuts not to learn the difficult aspects of the game, and one of the quickest shortcuts to make the game easier is the jump cue.

This is not true. It takes no skill to point your cue in approximately the right direction and flail away at a kick shot. The shooter doesn't even have to have a particularly good stroke. I have and you have been the victim of lucky kick shots many times. Conversely even the simplest jump shot requires a decent stroke and some idea of speed and distance. This is not a debate about kicking versus jumping. Jumping is another aspect of the game created by rules that make it imperative to make a good hit on the object ball. Any good player knows that he has to have a complete game to be consistently successful.

4. Professional contests are meant to be a measure of skill. The most skillful player should win. Why should equipment meant to reduce the amount of skill needed be allowed? Can it successfully be argued that jump cues WERE NOT invented to reduce the skill needed to get out of safe positions? I don't think so.

Yes it can be successfully argued that jump cues were invented to reduce the VARIABLE skill required to jump balls. As stated above full length cues come in all flavors of jumpability. Just because one cue has better characteristics for jumping doesn't make it's owner more skillfull. A jump cue simply eliminates the equipment variable and allows the true skill to come through. Now everone has the same opportunity and the ones who truly have the skill will continue to have consistent success.


5. Jump cues DO cause damage to the cloth. If somebody thinks they can jump, they're gonna do it. That may cause a ding or a mark in the cloth. How's this different from the marks left by breaking? Breaking generally only leaves marks along the headstring. Jumping can cause damage all over the playing surface. How's this different from jumping with a regular cue? Most people, if faced with a difficult jump, won't even try jumping with their regular cue, hence the table is protected. With a jump cue, that same shot might be tried 90% of the time.

Jump cues do not damage the cloth. This has been proven many times. See 100,000 jump shots above. If they did damage the cloth then I would not sell them or endorse them. I have seen a lot of amateurs go for a masse' when they have no clue how to do it and this is certainly a much larger danger to the cloth than a jump shot.

6. The biggest problem with jump cues isn't the damage to the equipment, it's the changing of the game. When the Sardo first came out, lots of people heralded it as the greatest thing since leather tips. Now, since pros have learned how to manipulate the break to make balls and run out consistently, the Sardo is dumped on like Mel Gibson at a Jewish temple. First, the US Open moves the 9 to the spot. Then, breaking rules are changed to require 2 balls to pass the side pocket. What next, are we going to place speed limits on the break? If equipment has to cause the game to be changed, then the equipment shouldn't be used, which is exactly why the Sardo has fallen out of favor and more and more tournaments are banning it (see WPBA and WPA World Championships). The same thinking is beginning to be applied to jump cues (finally!) and I'm definitely in favor of that.

This has been addressed in point two. The leather tip caused the game to be changed, ban it or keep it? Simonis cloth caused the game to be changed, ban it or leave it? Phenolic balls, ban them or leave them? Tiny table with big pockets, ban them or leave them? Rubber rails? Instructional books and videos make people aware of sidepin and hustlers, ban them or leave them? I wouldn't want some amateur who hasn't "paid his dues" to pick up a book and learn the diamond system and beat me. Ban the jump shot if you want to because as long as the jump shot is allowed there will be jump cues in some form or another.

John
 
nfty9er said:
well lets clarify the announcement he snuck in on azbilliards post is the first us usppa members heard of it, i found out word of mouth, then read the press release by him. It is fully implemented by Dec. so I guess you would call that a warning. The problem is he has no one to answer to.


And there is still no mention of it on the USPPA website, other than the newly posted position paper. Not even a copy of the original press release. Since they were so "pleased" to announce the ban I would have thought it would get prominence on the USPPA website. I guess it was more of an ego trip to announce it to the world rather than to the USPPA players directly.

John
 
Note that it was NOT Tony Annigoni who "released" the ban "to the world". Per Tony's e-mail to me, Tom posted a preliminary version (very close to the final version). The actual "public" announcement will probably be via the March issue of "On The Wire". In the meantime, many USPPA members knew it was coming.

Troy
instroke said:
And there is still no mention of it on the USPPA website, other than the newly posted position paper. Not even a copy of the original press release. Since they were so "pleased" to announce the ban I would have thought it would get prominence on the USPPA website. I guess it was more of an ego trip to announce it to the world rather than to the USPPA players directly.

John
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Gee John, I guess you think AZBilliards is some PRIVATE Club? sure it's PUBLIC. And I am sure that this info is now being debated in the pool rooms that have players that have internet access.

As far as Tony debating this in public, if you plan on being at the BCA trade show, I'm sure Tony would like to debate this with you.

If you are serious, please take advantage of this offer;
Call Tony Annigoni at 1 (800) 471-1164

He doesn't hide, he can be reached easily.

Discuss this with him..

We all know your views now. Tell Tony what you think of his view and position, if you really think your views are important.
I have a question...Since you are the one who posted the info here, knowing full well it would be debated/discussed, why do you keep referring people away, to the phone or in person? If Tony does not hide, then ask him to come here to AZBILLIARDS where you posted the info and answer John. Since this is where we are all at, and where we have received the info, why not have Tony come to the board and answer the questions or join in the debate.

I have another question...If John was to take up the request to deal with this over the phone, would Tony send you another email transcription of the conversation so we can all see what happened? It is confusing as to why this thread would be started on the board, and include an offer to debate off the board. The people that got this info are here on the board and would like to see Tony reply.

Tony mentions damage to the tables, but it is obvious that damage control on the tables is not his concern since he is still allowing the jump shot. Why does he even bring up golf...his position on it was weak. In golf, the players have specific clubs for specific situations. That is exactly the same thing as pool and jump cues.

eg8r
 
instroke said:
And before you chastise me again Tom I would urge you to remember that this is a discussion board. If you are free to post your opinions then I am free to post mine. I answered each point I felt is relevant and each question addressed to me in as succinct a manner as I can manage.

I took your advice and emailed Tony exactly what I wrote here and invited him to participate.

Sincerely,

John Barton
John, it has been noted before that Tom does not believe in this. He is free to post what he wants and then chastise you if you reply negatively.

However, this should not be about Tom, as it is Tony's idea and Tom is merely the messenger. Maybe Tom could introduce Tony to the forum and Tony could speak for himself. In the letter Tony has agreed to debate this, so here we are...where is he?

eg8r
 
T411 said:
Golf has outlawed many clubs. There have been putters that have been outlawed, drivers that have been outlawed, and balls that have been outlawed. The difference is that not all drivers were outlawed, or all putters.There are drivers and balls for that matter that can have the average joe hit the ball like Tiger Woods. I disagree. What if Tiger was to use these same drivers? Are we to believe they would hinder him from hitting the ball even farther. There are cues out there that can have the average joe jump the ball like skilled pro player. :rolleyes: They R called jump cues :D ;)
There is no doubt the jump cue has made it easier to jump, but that does not mean the person is any good at it. I would be willing to bet the majority of the time a jump is performed it is not successful in pocketing a ball or playing a safe.

eg8r
 
Since the shorter jump cues have been banned, I can see a full size jump cue coming out soon.
Just have a long plastic handle with removable weight bolts.
Break with it and take the bolts out to jump.
Now, if Tony bans JUMPING altogether....
 
T411,

I'm not a golfer so I'm not challenging your point of view, just offering a tidbit that I heard on the radio. They were talking about Tiger's clubs and said that they are custom-made for him. They continued to say that they are so custom that another player would probably not be able to play decently with them. Seems to me that there is some flexiblility with their standards, right?



T411 said:
Golf has outlawed many clubs. There have been putters that have been outlawed, drivers that have been outlawed, and balls that have been outlawed. There are drivers and balls for that matter that can have the average joe hit the ball like Tiger Woods. There are cues out there that can have the average joe jump the ball like skilled pro player. :rolleyes: They R called jump cues :D ;)
 
eg8r said:
I have a question...Since you are the one who posted the info here, knowing full well it would be debated/discussed, why do you keep referring people away, to the phone or in person? If Tony does not hide, then ask him to come here to AZBILLIARDS where you posted the info and answer John. Since this is where we are all at, and where we have received the info, why not have Tony come to the board and answer the questions or join in the debate.
--------------------------------------------------------------- I do not think all the people on AZBILLIARDS or BILLIARDS DIGEST or any other forum are all the people. I am sure that Tony has heard many of the PLAYERS opinions and I would bet that most of them are for banning the jump cue. There are some PLAYERS on these forums but most do not spend a lot of time on them or they would not be PLAYERS.
----------------------------------------------------------------I have another question...If John was to take up the request to deal with this over the phone, would Tony send you another email transcription of the conversation so we can all see what happened? It is confusing as to why this thread would be started on the board, and include an offer to debate off the board. The people that got this info are here on the board and would like to see Tony reply.
------------------------------------------------------------Even if Tony and John were to "deal" with this on the phone, does it even matter what happened? I am sure John is a nice guy and I respect his opinion but he is just one person. John has every right to state his opinion but it means no more than anybody else's opinion because he has no problem stating it in a long thread. I could care less what would be said in a conversation between the two. I think we all could figure it out.----------------------------------------------------------------Tony mentions damage to the tables, but it is obvious that damage control on the tables is not his concern since he is still allowing the jump shot. Why does he even bring up golf...his position on it was weak. In golf, the players have specific clubs for specific situations. That is exactly the same thing as pool and jump cues.
----------------------------------------------------------------I agree can agree that damage to the table may not be the the main or even a concern but I could give many examples or analogize many sports, golf included to support both sides of the argument.
 
Last edited:
Rickw said:
T411,

I'm not a golfer so I'm not challenging your point of view, just offering a tidbit that I heard on the radio. They were talking about Tiger's clubs and said that they are custom-made for him. They continued to say that they are so custom that another player would probably not be able to play decently with them. Seems to me that there is some flexiblility with their standards, right?

Just as in pool, you can get a custum cue, i.e. shaft diamiter, weight, kind of tip, ect. I understand your point, but as I said in another post I could give U examples and analogize other sports to support both sides of the argument. I just do not think the jump cue is good for the sport.
 
Last edited:
It's on the USPPA WebSite NOW

instroke said:
And there is still no mention of it on the USPPA website, other than the newly posted position paper. Not even a copy of the original press release. Since they were so "pleased" to announce the ban I would have thought it would get prominence on the USPPA website. I guess it was more of an ego trip to announce it to the world rather than to the USPPA players directly.

John

Due to an oversite by the webmaster, Tony's position pape is now on the USPPA website.
 
eg8r said:
I have a question...Since you are the one who posted the info here, knowing full well it would be debated/discussed, why do you keep referring people away, to the phone or in person? If Tony does not hide, then ask him to come here to AZBILLIARDS where you posted the info and answer John. Since this is where we are all at, and where we have received the info, why not have Tony come to the board and answer the questions or join in the debate.

I've only referred ONE person away, Tony does not hide, but, he is somewhat computer challenged, Tony writes the position paper, makes the announcement. If you want to talk to Tony, he's provided an "800" number.

I have another question...If John was to take up the request to deal with this over the phone, would Tony send you another email transcription of the conversation so we can all see what happened? It is confusing as to why this thread would be started on the board, and include an offer to debate off the board. The people that got this info are here on the board and would like to see Tony reply.

I doubt it, but I know Tony would share the details with me if he thought it was appropriate. If he ok'd it and John is also ok with it, I would share it with the board.

Tony mentions damage to the tables, but it is obvious that damage control on the tables is not his concern since he is still allowing the jump shot. Why does he even bring up golf...his position on it was weak. In golf, the players have specific clubs for specific situations. That is exactly the same thing as pool and jump cues. Your opinion and you have plenty of support in this area. I remember getting into trouble with sports analogies before... I won't go there again.. there is the forum police to deal with.. ;)

eg8r


All comments and discussion have been interesting. Cons are still not enough for me to change my mind.... NO MORE JUMP CUES.
 
Back
Top