vertically-challenged, horizontally

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
in this thread https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=511537
balance point was the topic, and here I'm still curious about that topic
but from a bit of a different perspective

in that thread hawaiian eye was kind enough to supply pictures of his cues
and with balance points of those cues marked
seeing his cues made me think

I've done the same thing here, with a measurement added
the green dots represent where I just picked up the cue, and placed my grip hand
I did this quickly and without looking, and tried to ignore individual cue specs.
the cues used all vary in length, weight, balance, etc.
while maybe not super-scientific, the results are all ended up being pretty close

I then marked each cues balance point with a pink dot
the more distance between the green and the pink,
the comfortable I feel with that cue

this experiment seems to confirm what I've suspected
that my ideal cue has a balance point weighted more forward than is typical

what I'm wondering now is
beyond technique, or preference for some other reason
how much of this is due to physiology?

I'm a short dude, with short arms
could it be that simple?

any other short players out there? y'all relate?

additionally I wonder
if a person had a shorter-than-average wingspan
besides for long shots
could more cue simply be wasted on them?
in another way
is it likely that a shorter player would be more comfortable with a shorter cue?

I've seen plenty talk about tall folks and their 60+ inch cues
could it work it the other way?

all input is of course welcome
shorties rep tho:grin:
 

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gogg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Short as well...5’7”
I much prefer a forward weighted cue as well.

Balanced at my normal grip point is “ok” in front of my hand for the balance point, is always preferable to me...
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Short as well...5’7”
I much prefer a forward weighted cue as well.

Balanced at my normal grip point is “ok” in front of my hand for the balance point, is always preferable to me...

hey gogg, thanks for the shout back
based on where where wraps tend to go
I seem to naturally grip more forward than most
you can kinda see it in the pic I posted
do you grip "ahead of the wrap" as well or ?

and do you have any thoughts about using a shorter cue?
thanks again
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm 6'2" tall. I hold the cue close to the bottom on EVERY cue. Could not care less about balance point unless its really off.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think the answer is yes

in this thread https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=511537
balance point was the topic, and here I'm still curious about that topic
but from a bit of a different perspective

in that thread hawaiian eye was kind enough to supply pictures of his cues
and with balance points of those cues marked
seeing his cues made me think

I've done the same thing here, with a measurement added
the green dots represent where I just picked up the cue, and placed my grip hand
I did this quickly and without looking, and tried to ignore individual cue specs.
the cues used all vary in length, weight, balance, etc.
while maybe not super-scientific, the results are all ended up being pretty close

I then marked each cues balance point with a pink dot
the more distance between the green and the pink,
the comfortable I feel with that cue

this experiment seems to confirm what I've suspected
that my ideal cue has a balance point weighted more forward than is typical

what I'm wondering now is
beyond technique, or preference for some other reason
how much of this is due to physiology?

I'm a short dude, with short arms
could it be that simple?

any other short players out there? y'all relate?

additionally I wonder
if a person had a shorter-than-average wingspan
besides for long shots
could more cue simply be wasted on them?
in another way
is it likely that a shorter player would be more comfortable with a shorter cue?

I've seen plenty talk about tall folks and their 60+ inch cues
could it work it the other way?

all input is of course welcome
shorties rep tho:grin:


One of the great players of yesteryear played with a 56" cue, I think Willie Mosconi but I may be mistaken. The vast majority of the time the longer cue serves no purpose that another form of weight behind the grip hand wouldn't also. As I have mentioned before, my sixty inch cue has a balance point of 21" from the end of the butt not counting bumper. That is an identical balance point to the very common 19" balance point with a fifty-eight inch cue. Everyone notices my cue is light when they try it, few notice it is long until it is pointed out to them. The lightness is somewhat deceptive, it weighs just over sixteen ounces but with the taper of the wrapless butt and the balance point people generally think it is even lighter than it is.

A faster taper forearm and a wrap further forward would accomplish the same thing for you as a shorter cue and if you ever wanted to sell it, it would probably be easier to sell than a very short cue. I have long wanted to put a very long irish linen wrap on a cue for myself, from well up on the forearm to within an inch or two of the butt cap. I like a wrap but hate the feeling of two different textures under my hand and I tend to grip a cue well back. Irish linen wraps can be any length unlike the precut wraps of other things. A chamois wrap that I cut to fit would be another option. Too many projects in my head I will never find time to put into reality!

Hu
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Gold Member
Silver Member
Balance point is a coefficient to nothing.
In all the years of dealing with cues every day, I have never sold a cue to a guy who
asked what the balance point is.
In fact I have never even had a response back after I've answered the question.
Balance point is basically a copout question asked by people who don't know how to
back out of a deal, or by guys at the pool hall when everybody is bored.
Balance point is the only question I won't answer,and is the only reason I will stop responding to a buyer.

Balance point isn't easy to measure by yourself.
I could see someone sending back a cue because the balance point is off a half inch, how odd would that be.
 

gogg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My grip is also farther forward than tall guys. But that is partly so I can try to incorporate the slip-stroke into my shot. (Not well done, or natural yet, but it is coming along)
No need for the slip, but I want to be able to use it...

The length hasn’t been a big deal, since the stuff that I have to reach for is hampered more by my wingspan than by the cue length ( or so it seems)
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm 6'2" tall. I hold the cue close to the bottom on EVERY cue. Could not care less about balance point unless its really off.

interesting
here's another hypothesis:
the further back a player is able to hold their cue,
the less important balance point is to that player
..because their cue weight will always be forward of their grip hand
any thoughts?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
interesting
here's another hypothesis:
the further back a player is able to hold their cue,
the less important balance point is to that player
..because their cue weight will always be forward of their grip hand
any thoughts?
Could be. I rarely am on the grip. Usually on the butt-sleeve somewhere.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Balance point isn't easy to measure by yourself.
Piece o' cake. Extend your index finger and place the cue across it like a teeter totter. Start with your finger near the top of the wrap and move it back and forth until it balances. Takes 5-10 seconds.

pj
chgo
 

Cron

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First, which balance point?

1. The point on the stick.
2. The fulcrum created by your hands.

But, both are affected by the stick weight.

Number 2 is as you think and is entirely dependent upon wing span. In cycling this is done for the legs with the seat and crank arms.

If you're looking for a factual answer, I believe in archery, swimming and even stunt diving this is determined frequently in an applicable way. But yes, it is dependent on a persons size.

Edit: Rowing!!! I looked up how to determine this fulcrum and rowing came up per definition, and this just so happens to be where I'm positive I've seen this determined, search in that.
 
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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the great players of yesteryear played with a 56" cue, I think Willie Mosconi but I may be mistaken. The vast majority of the time the longer cue serves no purpose that another form of weight behind the grip hand wouldn't also. As I have mentioned before, my sixty inch cue has a balance point of 21" from the end of the butt not counting bumper. That is an identical balance point to the very common 19" balance point with a fifty-eight inch cue. Everyone notices my cue is light when they try it, few notice it is long until it is pointed out to them. The lightness is somewhat deceptive, it weighs just over sixteen ounces but with the taper of the wrapless butt and the balance point people generally think it is even lighter than it is.

A faster taper forearm and a wrap further forward would accomplish the same thing for you as a shorter cue and if you ever wanted to sell it, it would probably be easier to sell than a very short cue. I have long wanted to put a very long irish linen wrap on a cue for myself, from well up on the forearm to within an inch or two of the butt cap. I like a wrap but hate the feeling of two different textures under my hand and I tend to grip a cue well back. Irish linen wraps can be any length unlike the precut wraps of other things. A chamois wrap that I cut to fit would be another option. Too many projects in my head I will never find time to put into reality!

Hu

hey hu, thanks for chiming in
I have read (here, probably) that 57 was the standard cue length before 58 became cool
56 seems less of a "stretch" in that case, but nonetheless it'd be fun to know that willie liked a shortie
I looked his height up, and by most accounts I read he was 5'8" or shorter-
shorter cue to match his height, perhaps?

re: your cue
so when it comes to numbers, I'm often more "gee whiz" than "math whiz"
but these days, I'm measuring/comparing balance points
by dividing the length from the top of the ferrule down to the balance point into the total length of the cue
so, 39/58=67.24%
using the same method, yours would be 39/60=65%
or, a little more forward-balanced than the 39/58
there's probably a better way to describe the process/result, but I think the math is sound
I've never shared it tho..what do you think?

ps 16 oz. for a 60 oz. cue is wild, man...
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First, which balance point?

1. The point on the stick.
2. The fulcrum created by your hands.

But, both are affected by the stick weight.

Number 2 is as you think and is entirely dependent upon wing span. In cycling this is done for the legs with the seat and crank arms.

If you're looking for a factual answer, I believe in archery, swimming and even stunt diving this is determined frequently in an applicable way. But yes, it is dependent on a persons size.

Edit: Rowing!!! I looked up how to determine this fulcrum and rowing came up per definition, and this just so happens to be where I'm positive I've seen this determined, search in that.

interesting stuff, thanks
I'm honestly not sure how to respond:smile:
but by balance point, I definitely mean the point on the stick
measured this way:
Piece o' cake. Extend your index finger and place the cue across it like a teeter totter. Start with your finger near the top of the wrap and move it back and forth until it balances. Takes 5-10 seconds.

pj
chgo
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My grip is also farther forward than tall guys. But that is partly so I can try to incorporate the slip-stroke into my shot. (Not well done, or natural yet, but it is coming along)
No need for the slip, but I want to be able to use it...

The length hasn’t been a big deal, since the stuff that I have to reach for is hampered more by my wingspan than by the cue length ( or so it seems)

makes sense..thanks!
and good luck with the slip
got me wondering now what's good cue aspects conducive to that..:grin:
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Balance point is a coefficient to nothing.
In all the years of dealing with cues every day, I have never sold a cue to a guy who
asked what the balance point is.
In fact I have never even had a response back after I've answered the question.
Balance point is basically a copout question asked by people who don't know how to
back out of a deal, or by guys at the pool hall when everybody is bored.
Balance point is the only question I won't answer,and is the only reason I will stop responding to a buyer.

Balance point isn't easy to measure by yourself.
I could see someone sending back a cue because the balance point is off a half inch, how odd would that be.

surprising and interesting
I'm still figuring it out, but I definitely like a cue a certain way
as time goes on, that might change some
but if I was going to buy a nice cue
I wouldn't want worry about cue dimensions
I would want to focus on the "hit" of it tho
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Gold Member
Silver Member
surprising and interesting
I'm still figuring it out, but I definitely like a cue a certain way
as time goes on, that might change some
but if I was going to buy a nice cue
I wouldn't want worry about cue dimensions
I would want to focus on the "hit" of it tho

We all have our favorite specifications and some cues are just inherently butt heavy or back-weighted.
You always hear people say a 16 ounce South West butt doesn't feel heavy, so they
obviously do a nice job of balancing a cue butt.
I have a 16 oz. South West butt right now, and it doesn't feel heavy at all.
I had 2 Herman Rambow cues that both butts weighed 15.55, one was rear weighted
and played like crap, and one was nicely balanced and played great.
The cue balance was obvious to me and the guy who bought the Rambows, we didn't have to check the balance point, the one cue played like crap.

With all the great playing cues out there, custom cuemakers known for playability, and so many well engineered production cues, carbon fiber, the options are mindboggling.
The actual balance point doesn't factor in with so many other important variables.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The actual balance point doesn't factor in with so many other important variables.

Are you saying this as a cue maker, a cue trader, or a player?

Every cue maker who has ever made me a cue has talked about how they would control the balance.

Balance is one of the reasons they use different pins and joint materials.

When I buy a cue, I discuss every aspect of the cue. I have played long enough that I know what I prefer.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And it is worthless to the next guy.

"Forward balanced" or "rear balanced" are about the best you can do, most cuemakers won't dive deeper than that

I deal with cue makers who maybe dive a bit deeper than the ones you deal with.

Like I've said on here 1,000 times, I'm buying my cues to play with...not sell. With only a handful of exceptions, there is no "next guy" to get any of my cues.
 
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