Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you denying that the shaft naturally wants to be under the dominant eye?
Vision center, and what not to do about it
- Thread starter deraltefritz
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Not sure what you're trying to say. Are you denying that the shaft naturally wants to be under the dominant eye?
Not sure if either of you is saying otherwise, but...
Clearly both of these are true - we see a composite pic made from what both eyes see individually, but the image from the dominant eye dominates that pic.
This makes the shaft look more aligned with our line of sight when it's under the dominant eye (with strong dominance), closer to it (with moderate dominance) or centered between the eyes (with weak to no dominance).
I think the shaft tends to gravitate toward whichever of those positions applies to us individually.
pj
chgo
Agreed. Well put.
I agree with all that's been said since my last post.
The point I wanted to make initially was that aligning yourself is not something you should approach by a trial and error procedure.
If a player constantly applies unintentional left side to the cue ball, or has a tendency to bring the cue ball left of the target, the answer cannot be to move their head a little. The answer must come from investigation. Are these flaws already in the setup, or is the cue not delivered in a straight line. If you take the shortcut of just moving your head a little and see whether that corrects the issue, you may just compensate one flaw with another.
Aligning yourself is done by seeing whether your "line of sight" and the cue are on top of the line of the shot. That takes just as much practice, maybe even more. But that way you're letting your brain learn to recognize fine alignment details, which will be valuable in the long run.
If you take the shortcut, you will become obsessed that having your head in a certain way is the only way to go. If something goes wrong, you'll want to move your head a little to fix it. Time and time again.
I do not question that the brain compiles an image from both eyes, and each player's brain will weigh eyes differently to compute the individual line of sight. And to align your line of sight with the line of the shot is done by moving your head.
But there isn't a single way to hold your head for you to be on that line. Take a picture of yourself when aligned. Then, rotate your head as far to the left as you can while still seeing the shot with both eyes. Align yourself again and take another picture. Then do it with the head rotated to the right. You'll be "left eye dominant" when the head is rotated to the right, and vice-versa.
This example is of course extreme, but it shows that you cannot really make sure to be on the line except by seeing it. How do you make sure that you always hold the head exactly the same. Just checking where the cue touches your chin isn't enough.
The point I wanted to make initially was that aligning yourself is not something you should approach by a trial and error procedure.
If a player constantly applies unintentional left side to the cue ball, or has a tendency to bring the cue ball left of the target, the answer cannot be to move their head a little. The answer must come from investigation. Are these flaws already in the setup, or is the cue not delivered in a straight line. If you take the shortcut of just moving your head a little and see whether that corrects the issue, you may just compensate one flaw with another.
Aligning yourself is done by seeing whether your "line of sight" and the cue are on top of the line of the shot. That takes just as much practice, maybe even more. But that way you're letting your brain learn to recognize fine alignment details, which will be valuable in the long run.
If you take the shortcut, you will become obsessed that having your head in a certain way is the only way to go. If something goes wrong, you'll want to move your head a little to fix it. Time and time again.
I do not question that the brain compiles an image from both eyes, and each player's brain will weigh eyes differently to compute the individual line of sight. And to align your line of sight with the line of the shot is done by moving your head.
But there isn't a single way to hold your head for you to be on that line. Take a picture of yourself when aligned. Then, rotate your head as far to the left as you can while still seeing the shot with both eyes. Align yourself again and take another picture. Then do it with the head rotated to the right. You'll be "left eye dominant" when the head is rotated to the right, and vice-versa.
This example is of course extreme, but it shows that you cannot really make sure to be on the line except by seeing it. How do you make sure that you always hold the head exactly the same. Just checking where the cue touches your chin isn't enough.
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There is for me. If my face isn’t square to the shot I can’t align my shaft, eyes and shot line.
pj
chgo
I suppose those with dominant eye issues would also have trouble threading a needle. ?
This whole dominant eye topic is theoretical, and the issue could likely be related to proprioception and kinesthesia, the ability to accurately know where your body parts are and exactly how they are moving.
In other words, you look at the shot and then align your body accordingly. Regardless of dominant eye or no dominant eye, some players simple think they are aligned for the shot even though they aren't. It may feel like their grip hand/arm is positioned in a manner that has the cue stick lined up correctly in accordance with what they are seeing, but the lack of muscle memory or exact body placement makes this a faulty awareness.
I'm not saying there are no dominate-eye-related issues when looking down over the cue, but it seems like if that were the case it would also be an issue in other daily things, like writing, typing, walking through a narrow doorway, etc...
This whole dominant eye topic is theoretical, and the issue could likely be related to proprioception and kinesthesia, the ability to accurately know where your body parts are and exactly how they are moving.
In other words, you look at the shot and then align your body accordingly. Regardless of dominant eye or no dominant eye, some players simple think they are aligned for the shot even though they aren't. It may feel like their grip hand/arm is positioned in a manner that has the cue stick lined up correctly in accordance with what they are seeing, but the lack of muscle memory or exact body placement makes this a faulty awareness.
I'm not saying there are no dominate-eye-related issues when looking down over the cue, but it seems like if that were the case it would also be an issue in other daily things, like writing, typing, walking through a narrow doorway, etc...
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What's a dominant eye "issue"?
Eye dominance is well researched.
Aiming a stick from above is nothing like writing, typing or walking through a narrow doorway. It's a lot like aiming a rifle or pointing a finger - guess which eye is used for that.
pj
chgo
Dominant eye issue: When your cue stick is misaligned for the shot due to a slightly off perspective view of the shot as seen from the dominant eye.
Well researched: Of course eye dominance is well researched, scientifically proven. But exactly how it affects lining up a shot or shooting a rifle is not so thoroughly understood. It's a simple change in perspective. I mean, I can shoot with my left eye, my right eye, or both eyes, and do a fine job, playing pool or shooting a gun. But this involves subconsciously knowing (proprioception via propreoceptors in muscles) and consciously knowing (kinethesia via receptors in muscles, joints, and skin) that I have my cue, or my sights, lined up appropriately even though I cannot see my grip hand or shooting arm. If I shoot a particular shot with one eye or the other closed, or with both open, my cue stick will always be dead on the correct alignment. The only thing that changes is my body position (stance) and my head position (in order to get the correct perspective for the alignment). No adjustments are needed with the cue itself.
So this makes me think that pool players with an overly dominate eye probably align to shots just fine, according to what they see, but are slightly off in stroke delivery or some fundamental element with their stance or shooting arm or wrist, not a vision center problem.
I'm not saying eye dominance has no influence on lining up a shot correctly. But I do believe many times it is incorrectly diagnosed as the problem, which causes more issues for the struggling player.
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Earl Strickland is a good example of a player with a severely dominant eye. We all know that his stroke is pretty deadly straight, even with his cue way out under the outer edge of his right eye. I can tell you from experience that in his case, it is common to see the left side of the cue ball as the center. He somehow made adjustments in his perception, possibly not consciously.
Very interesting. I play with a guy that turns his head at an odd angle, like he's using only one eye. I suppose we each do what we have to do in order to make the cue stick/shaft look properly aligned for the shot. But it seems like once you get that particular perspective, get your vision center in the correct position, despite having or not having a dominant eye, what you see as center cb is probably correct. I have no dominate eye, so I can't speak from experience.
I just laid a cue on the table and propped it up with a piece of chalk under the ferrule and a notebook under the butt cap. I lined up to shoot the cb straight into the center of the far corner pocket, using only my finger tips to move the butt end of the cue to what looked correctly aligned through ccb and to center pocket. Then I marked on the notebook paper where the center line of the cue was. I did the same thing with my left eye closed, and again with my right closed. Each time I simply lined the cue up to what looked like a ccb to center pocket shot, and each shot was pretty much dead on the first mark I had made. I had to shift my head and stance each time in order to get a perspective that looked like ccb to center pocket, but each time the cue stick ended up in the same place on the same line, and from each perspective the cue tip looked dead on center cb.
Wouldn't this be a simulated worse case scenario, where there is 100% left or right eye dominance? Yet it made no difference on where the cue stick ended up. Weird stuff.
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I'm moderately dominant and like the stick just favoring that side.
When I close one eye and then the other the stick jumps back and forth noticably - two distinctly different pictures. The one seen by my dominant eye looks closer to straight than the other, but not as straight as the single stick I see with both eyes open. The pic below shows an exaggerated version of it.
pj
chgo
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Cool images. Naturally you'll get a different perspective from each eye. But it's pretty simple to just move your head or whole body over in order to have a straight on view/perspective again. If I'd have kept my head still in my little experiment then neither of my single eye perspectives would have come close to what I got using both eyes.
I guess my point is this: It shouldn't make any difference. Left eye dominant, right eye dominant, or no dominant eye at all, there is still a focal point of vision that we use to line up the shot through center cb. A dominant eye would just make it so you'd have to move your head right or left a little in order to obtain a center cb perspective that looks correct.
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Yes, the "vision center" is the head position where your stick appears to be right on your line of sight when it actually is. I don't think it's perfectly resolvable for everybody, though - some (most?) of us have to "adjust" our visual interpretation a little so things "look right". Binocular vision is a complex thing, especially for odd tasks like aiming a shaft from above.
pj
chgo
What do you mean by "get your vision center in the correct position?"
By "vision center" I mean your head, the entire processing center for vision. We see with our eyes and our brain, a powerful combo tucked inside the head. Getting your head in the correct position over the cue in order to obtain the proper images, proper perspective, or line of sight for the shot, is what I'm talking about when I say "vision center". I should've just said, "get your head in the correct position".
If you're blind in one eye, your head is going to have to be positioned so that the cue is under your good eye, directly on the line of sight, which means you will have to stand/position your head in a manner that allows the line of sight to look correct. With perfect binocular vision (no blind eye and no dominance in either eye), the cue is between both eyes, neither eye directly on the line of sight.
I think it’s more resolvable than most think. The issue imop isn’t eye dominance its the angling and cocking of the head many do which I’d mostly finger their stance as the root that created those head position/s.
We surely in general never have issues doing daily activities or seeing things with our vision centered....and we usually do center what we see and are doing in the center of our heads......start torquing everything upstairs around like a cat and we see farther around sides or tops and bottoms instead of and equal ratio that is centered unto itself.
If I put my cue to one side or the other I can pocket balls to not as consistently precise as centered.....now if I start tilting my head left and right on the vertical axis.....I’ll get the nearsies real bad.
I’m right eye domnate shoot lefty and cue is centered. My stance is more snooker than pool as well.
I’ve taken side cue players and centered them up and they surpassed their former plateau....generally laughing as to why they didn’t put it in the middle from the get go like we do with everything in the rest of our daily routine.
The brain can relearn whatever but feeding it lop sided and skewed images never made a lick a sense to this ghost.
Unless you got those crazy eyes like homeboy off Mr. Deeds....then sure sure I concede to such oddness lol
-Greyghost
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I often have to remind myself to "face the shot" - it's one of many things on my perpetual whack-a-mole list of things to learn to do automatically.
pj
chgo
Ha! It's one of my favorite lines to tell my clients. "Face the shot or you'll wind up shooting pool looking over your shoulder."
Here is a pretty simple test to set up to test your center.
The pvc pipes are 3/4in x 12in. If you really want to get more serious use a couple of 1/8" rods on mounts.
Set the shot up like you going to pocket the 8 ball. Bend down to shoot the 8 ball in, are the pipes still exactly in line. Or do you have
to move your head from side to side to get the pvc pipes to line up. Then stand up and repeat the exercise.
John
The pvc pipes are 3/4in x 12in. If you really want to get more serious use a couple of 1/8" rods on mounts.
Set the shot up like you going to pocket the 8 ball. Bend down to shoot the 8 ball in, are the pipes still exactly in line. Or do you have
to move your head from side to side to get the pvc pipes to line up. Then stand up and repeat the exercise.
John
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Casting 9s
Member
I have a quick question about "Vision Center".
Today I found a method whereby you tape a half-folded business card to a mirror. The folded half is facing you, sticking out towards you, straight on. Then you move slightly left or right until the card appears to be exactly centered in your vision, so you can't see either side any more than the other. What I found is that just inside my left eye is where this occurs, however, I am right-handed. Is that normal? I was very surprised by that.
My other question is, if that is the case, is this where I should be dropping over the shot line every time?
Today I found a method whereby you tape a half-folded business card to a mirror. The folded half is facing you, sticking out towards you, straight on. Then you move slightly left or right until the card appears to be exactly centered in your vision, so you can't see either side any more than the other. What I found is that just inside my left eye is where this occurs, however, I am right-handed. Is that normal? I was very surprised by that.
My other question is, if that is the case, is this where I should be dropping over the shot line every time?