VNEA-BCA rules question

[tbayplayer]

Is it a foul to place your cue flat on the table while grabbing a rake? Hand off the cue? Walking around the table

Is it a foul to place the rake on the table and your cue in the rake with you hand off of the cue? Walking around the table

I thought it wasn't a foul.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

You can use your cue as an aiming device and let go of it under BCAPL rules. BCA rules are the same as the World Rules and it is a foul under that rule set. Don't know about VNEA.

 

[FastManners]

You can use your cue as an aiming device and let go of it under BCAPL rules. BCA rules are the same as the World Rules and it is a foul under that rule set. Don't know about VNEA.

A friend of mine got knocked out of the BCA National 8 Ball Open Singles because of this rule last year as the ref said it was foul and he lost the game because of it.
The ref was wrong on that occasion (whatever way you look at it), as he did not even let go of his cue!

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

If you're asking as a player, I would strongly advise NEVER to leave your cue on a table to fetch the bridge or tie your shoes. I've often heard about refs calling fouls on players for this and although there is some merit to their logic, I don't agree with it.

The rule is about proper use of equipment. In some leagues and tours, it is often argued that you should not be able to use your cue as an aiming device unless you're holding it. Some refs will allow you to get away with it, some won't. I'm pretty sure that any BCA/APA/VNEA event you play in, unless the refs have specifically gone over that rule prior to the event, there is a reasonable assumption that two refs will see it different ways.

So in sum, protect yourself. Don't leave your cue on the table. If you primarily play organized pool (tournaments & leagues), you're best off having standards higher than all of them rather than trying to just meet the minimum standards set by each organization.

 

[FastManners]

If you're asking as a player, I would strongly advise NEVER to leave your cue on a table to fetch the bridge or tie your shoes. I've often heard about refs calling fouls on players for this and although there is some merit to their logic, I don't agree with it.

The rule is about proper use of equipment. In some leagues and tours, it is often argued that you should not be able to use your cue as an aiming device unless you're holding it. Some refs will allow you to get away with it, some won't. I'm pretty sure that any BCA/APA/VNEA event you play in, unless the refs have specifically gone over that rule prior to the event, there is a reasonable assumption that two refs will see it different ways.

So in sum, protect yourself. Don't leave your cue on the table. If you primarily play organized pool (tournaments & leagues), you're best off having standards higher than all of them rather than trying to just meet the minimum standards set by each organization.

Agreed Jude, it is always better to err on the side of caution when it comes to rules.

I saw a guy try and pull the "he left his cue on the table while aiming" move in Staten Island a few weeks ago and thankfully the TD sided with the player shooting. I was on the next table and to the letter of the law the TD made the right call.
Either way I would say that for an opponent to try and win that way shows a definite lack of character.

 

[cfrandy]

It is NOT a foul under any VNEA rules. BCA...only if it reffed and the rule is adopted for tournament play.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Agreed Jude, it is always better to err on the side of caution when it comes to rules.

I saw a guy try and pull the "he left his cue on the table while aiming" move in Staten Island a few weeks ago and thankfully the TD sided with the player shooting. I was on the next table and to the letter of the law the TD made the right call.
Either way I would say that for an opponent to try and win that way shows a definite lack of character.

The funny thing is, I don't even see any advantage to be gained by any of this. My opponent wants to leave his cue on the table and walk around? Fine. He wants to use the butt of his cue to see if a ball passes? Fine! Hell, he can bring a compass, a protractor and draw a big x on the cloth for all I care. Actually, I might say something for marking the table but still don't see anything amazing to be had from this.

What bothers me is when someone is clearly tying their shoes or fetching the bridge and a ref calls them on it. That's silly. BUT, it happens and as a player, you have to recognize that you don't have control over how a ref is going to rule.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Rules

Wwe took over the league in 2004.

One of the first things we did we to not recognize this rule.

The WPA had a rules meeting the next year and the vote was taken and they decided to continue with the rule that leaving the cue on a table is a foul since it could be used as an aiming device.

This is one of the main reasons that BCAPL has their own rule book and rules. That is one of the differences between BCAPL and other leagues.

I understand that WPA rules are worldwide, but most of their events either had refs or the players would call theri own fouls. Remember - they play all fouls in Europe and many other places.

In amateur play, these rules are just not enforceable.

So to be very clear: It is not a foul if you lay the cuestick on the table and bend over to tie your shoe. I question about the wisdom of laying your cue on the table and then walking around the table, but that act by itself is not a foul.

Mark Griffin

 

[Cornerman]

The funny thing is, I don't even see any advantage to be gained by any of this. My opponent wants to leave his cue on the table and walk around? Fine. He wants to use the butt of his cue to see if a ball passes? Fine! Hell, he can bring a compass, a protractor and draw a big x on the cloth for all I care. Actually, I might say something for marking the table but still don't see anything amazing to be had from this..

I guess this would be a good time to put a link to a Doug W. story of long ago:


Hustling Stories

and a follow-up

The Compass and Its Use

 

[tbayplayer]

.............................

 

[tatcat2000]

A little clarification...

A friend of mine got knocked out of the BCA National 8 Ball Open Singles because of this rule last year as the ref said it was foul and he lost the game because of it.
The ref was wrong on that occasion (whatever way you look at it), as he did not even let go of his cue!

A year later and I haven't heard about this - and believe me, I hear it all. Not saying it didn't happen, but if it did, then your friend should have protested the ruling. I guarantee you it would have been fixed on protest. 50+ refs are not going to get through 10,000+ calls without making errors, but in the case of rules applications errors the players have a 100% effective defense - protest.

unless the refs have specifically gone over that rule prior to the event, there is a reasonable assumption that two refs will see it different ways.

Not in BCAPL play. BCAPL referees have almost no power to interpret rules. If it's not clear in black and white, the gray area is the reponsibility of the TD - not the referee. BCAPL Rules 9-5-3 and 9-5-4 apply.

There is no gray area in BCAPL Rule 1-3-1-a: "you may use your cue, held in the hand or not, to help align a shot."

It is NOT a foul under any VNEA rules. BCA...only if it reffed and the rule is adopted for tournament play.

If you mean BCAPL, not true. See above. If you mean WSR, still not true. WSR 6.12 is clear: If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul. The rule does not need to be "adopted", nor is the presence of a referee relevant.

What is relevant is intent. Hence the absence of a foul in the shoe-tying, bridge-retrieving, or other non-alignment situation when there is clearly no intent to align a shot. The rule is specific to alignment - no alignment, no foul.

The funny thing is, I don't even see any advantage to be gained by any of this.

The BCAPL National Office agrees. Hence the legality of the move in BCAPL play.

:smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.