VNEA rules question

tenzip said:
These sentences from the rules above cover what you are asking about.

The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot.
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steev said:
Joel, your failure to understand my "confusion" is of little importance to me. I am merely trying to obtain a clear understanding of the situation (and maybe even make some other people think about it too). That's why I am having a discussion on an open forum about the topic. I do have strong opinions about this topic and will continue to push for understanding of my viewpoint. Please be considerate of myself and others in this discussion, or keep quiet.

here is something to add to the discussion:

a safety being a 'legal shot' means it is not a foul. it does not mean that pocketing a ball while playing safe is a 'legal pocketing' of the ball. to interpret that wording in the way that some have, no matter how official they are, is wrong IMO.

even in the face of certified refs saying otherwise, i will continue to interpret the rules this way. calling safe and calling a ball in the same shot feels like a 'move' that someone would pull to take advantage of vague wording in a rule.

for reference, i have 15 years experience playing VNEA, and have never seen someone pull this move. i was asked about it today, and had never heard of it before.

(i'm also classified as a master level player in my state, and have some top results to go with it)

-s
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I know it sounds crazy, I agree, but it's pretty clear,

tenzip said:
These sentences from the rules above cover what you are asking about.

The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot.
Click to expand...

I don't agree with it, sounds corny to me, but legal shot means legal shot.
Legal HIT, would be interpreted diff...
 
I up to learning new things,,but I don't believe this is a legal call.

I need more verification to become a believer.

If it don't make sense then its probably not true,,,and this makes NO sense at all!!!

You cannot make 2 calls in one shot!!! Ever!!! You are either going to shoot the ball and claim it ,,and continue shooting .
Or you are shooting safe, hitting a ball to rail/pocket and give up table. And ball made cannot be claimed if still open table,,since you called safe.

Once again....It's my shot shot after the break ,,open table,,,I walk up to the table and say " 11 in the side,,,safety"!!!??? LMAO!!!
 
8onthebreak said:
I don't agree with it, sounds corny to me, but legal shot means legal shot.
Legal HIT, would be interpreted diff...
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my sticking point here is allowing a player to call a ball while simultaneously calling safe. these things do not mix in my world. each shot has but one call, IMO.

-s
 
steev said:
my sticking point here is allowing a player to call a ball while simultaneously calling safe. these things do not mix in my world. each shot has but one call, IMO.

-s
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I agree, but...
A legal shot always claims the suit, as long as no foul was committed.
It's clear here that they DO consider this shot a legal shot.
I would have been frustrated if I were the opponent. But I don't know how I'd interpret the rules any differently.
 
you misunderstand me.

i am saying "calling two things in one shot is not allowed".

if the above statement is true, the rest is moot. you can either call safe, or call a ball.

-s
 
Sorry you don't agree, but it is what it is. I'm about 99% sure that we discussed this with the head ref from Vegas when he was in Lincoln a year or two ago, among some other strange situations we had come up in play.

You can certainly petition the rules committee to change it, but until they do, that's how it will be ruled if you call for a ruling.

Again, it's akin to the situation on a table where groups have been established. Calling a ball from your group in a pocket, and safe. The safe counts, as does the ball.
 
steev said:
you misunderstand me.

i am saying "calling two things in one shot is not allowed".

if the above statement is true, the rest is moot. you can either call safe, or call a ball.

-s
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Here is the sentence that clears this up.....



For tactical reasons a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue his turn at the table by declaring “safety” in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot.

Pretty clear...
Pocket a ball...
And...
Discontinue turn at table...

Ie...call a shot and a safe in same turn :yeah: lol
 
um, no.

refer to my second post about pocketing vs. calling. just because you pocket a ball on your turn, does not make it a 'called ball'. and! pocketing a 'called ball' is what obtains you a group. i hold that -calling- safe takes up your call for the shot, and any further intent is disregarded. the wording under safety is meant to clarify that you have to shoot again if you do not designate safety by calling safe, if you pocket an obvious ball.

i get that the higher-ups have ruled on this, but i will never understand the reasoning that led to the interpretation.

perhaps i will contact VNEA about fixing the wording, rather than *****ing about it on here :)

-s
 
I get it, you disagree with the rules as written. I was questioning your interpretation of the written rule which is pretty clear.

Frankly, there are several rules I think are wrong and actually agree with you on this one. But, when you ask what the ruling should be, the rules are specific to the situation and leave no ambiguity.

The rules clearly state that you can call a ball and a pocket and in addition you can abdicate your turn by declaring a safety. The safety does not, under these rules as stated, cancel out the legal pocketing of the object ball.
 
8onthebreak said:
I don't agree with it, sounds corny to me, but legal shot means legal shot.
Legal HIT, would be interpreted diff...
Click to expand...

If I hit my ball first and drive it (or another ball) to a rail, then that's a legal shot, regardless of whether any called ball were actually pocketed. A legal shot means that no foul occurred. It does not mean a ball was pocketed necessarily.

tatcat2000 said:
I would not testify as to the motive of whoever edited the VNEA rules. Whether the intention was to alter the WSR intent, or if the omission of the concept/definintion of the illegally pocketed ball was an oversight at the time, is anyone's guess. :smile:
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I'm betting on oversight.

The VNEA re-wrote the rules to make it simpler and shorter. In the process of removing language, they created loopholes, IMO.

Fatz
 
joelpope said:
I get it, you disagree with the rules as written. I was questioning your interpretation of the written rule which is pretty clear.

The rules clearly state that you can call a ball and a pocket and in addition you can abdicate your turn by declaring a safety. The safety does not, under these rules as stated, cancel out the legal pocketing of the object ball.
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I'm not sure I agree that it is 'pretty clear', but I do acknowledge the lack of clarity which allows either interpretation.

I also disagree that the rules clearly state 'in addition' you can do both things (mostly through the 'pocketing vs calling' clarification). The rules are very vague on this, by not mentioning either way. Of course, this allows the 'if it is not explicitly illegal, it must be legal' view, which is what they are choosing to enforce.

In the end, as with many situations, knowing the ruling is more important than agreeing with it. I will be advised in the future and act accordingly. Of course, since this hasn't come up in the last 15 years in a game, I'm not sure it ever will.
 
Steev, when I was at the hall yesterday, I posed your question to another Ref, and two players, both Masters.

The ref and one player agreed with you, one player not.

The one player said the same as yourself, opening shot, you can't make 2 calls for one shot. The Ref said the same.

Thats why I called the Head ref. Too many conflicting opinions and to tell the truth, altho I went with what I originally mentioned, your version or opinion on it
makes just as much sense as well.

It was a good poser question anyway, a person can learn something new everyday.

I have come across it many times. Just when you think you've heard and seen it all, someone can come up with a situation, like you did, that will upset the apple cart.

There just isn't enuff time in one Ref Cert class to cover everything. You can know the basic rules 100%, the rest has to be learned as you go along.
 
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Pre-Flag Master said:
BTW, this has come up before. I specifically remembered one thread, went looking for it, and found a few others....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=19152
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=71130
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=128597
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=176035

Calling a ball and calling a safe on the same shot not making sense or being allowed seems to be the consensus.

Fatz
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Thanks for the searching. My eyes hurt from reading another 15+ pages of this.

I even participated in one of those threads. That makes me 'that guy' for bringing a new thread on it. I asked on here to get outside views, due to being asked by others. My opinion was already quite formed...

-s
 
Inaction said:
This reminds me of a game in the SD State 8 Ball Masters division. Shooter is in a better position if the opponent's hanger is off the table. It would be a foul to shoot it in because the rules state that you can not shoot directly at your opponent's ball to make it intentionally. Shooter brings up the question whether he could kick at the ball (not shooting directly at it). After quite a delay, it was determined to flip a coin. and the shooter lost the coin toss.
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Who made that call? It is a ridiculous question about the rules, but it is even more ridiculous to leave it up to a coin flip.
 
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