Weight bolt issue.

[icem3n]

Someone wanted to sell me a 19oz cue. I was looking for a 19.8 ~20 oz cue and I told him I prefer it to come originally without weight bolt built in the butt. He told me I could add in a weight bolt and go on saying that all good cues comes with weight bolt. He name a few classic cue and new cues that comes with weight bolt. He says I will play better with such cue.

Now my question is;

1. Shouldn't a cue without weight bolt play solid and resonate better than cue with weight bolt?

2. Also weight bolt will move the balance of the cue sightly toward to back right?

3. Why is that most cues are built with weight bolt?

 

[jazznpool]

As long as there is not a massive amount of weight packed into the back of a cue, my experience tells me there's nothing wrong at all with a bit rear weight in a cue, IF NEEDED to make the cue balance properly and achieve a desired weight. Don't forget the rubber bumper and the screw that holds it in place also have weight!

I also have come to completely dislike the massive steel joint collar (too heavy, makes cue vibrate poorly), but I love the lightweight steel sleeve for the look without the mass. IMO, there are more problems with a concentration of weight in the joint area than at the rear.

Martin

Someone wanted to sell me a 19oz cue. I was looking for a 19.8 ~20 oz cue and I told him I prefer it to come originally without weight bolt built in the butt. He told me I could add in a weight bolt and go on saying that all good cues comes with weight bolt. He name a few classic cue and new cues that comes with weight bolt. He says I will play better with such cue.

Now my question is;

1. Shouldn't a cue without weight bolt play solid and resonate better than cue with weight bolt?

2. Also weight bolt will move the balance of the cue sightly toward to back right?

3. Why is that most cues are built with weight bolt?

 

[Michael Webb]

Most cues with the weight you are looking for have some sought of rear weighted system. Most are accessible but some are put in and covered with epoxy, some are done at the top of the butt sleeve and threaded up into the handle.

 

[pdcue]

Someone wanted to sell me a 19oz cue. I was looking for a 19.8 ~20 oz cue and I told him I prefer it to come originally without weight bolt built in the butt. He told me I could add in a weight bolt and go on saying that all good cues comes with weight bolt. He name a few classic cue and new cues that comes with weight bolt. He says I will play better with such cue.

Now my question is;

1. Shouldn't a cue without weight bolt play solid and resonate better than cue with weight bolt?

2. Also weight bolt will move the balance of the cue sightly toward to back right?

3. Why is that most cues are built with weight bolt?

1. No
a. it is not nearly that simple
b. this is one more issue associated with the "hit" of a cue.
quality of "hit" is a highly subjective evaluation.

2. correct - on 2 identical cues - there are a few schemes to acheive
desired weight and/or balance - speaking of, balance is not as simple
as the balance point - it is actually the weight distribution of the cue.
Also a very subjective issue.

3. most cues need some weight added to reach the desired weight.

Dale

 

[JoeyInCali]

1. Shouldn't a cue without weight bolt play solid and resonate better than cue with weight bolt?

2. Also weight bolt will move the balance of the cue sightly toward to back right?

3. Why is that most cues are built with weight bolt?
1. Logically, yes.
2. Yes
3. B/c it's easier to add weight that take out.

 

[rhncue]

1. Shouldn't a cue without weight bolt play solid and resonate better than cue with weight bolt?

2. Also weight bolt will move the balance of the cue sightly toward to back right?

3. Why is that most cues are built with weight bolt?
1. Logically, yes.
2. Yes
3. B/c it's easier to add weight that take out.

Joey, why is it logical that a cue with no weight bolt would play more solidly and resonate better than one without? Logically (meaning that under set conditions, but not proof, a conclusion may be assumed), I would assume that a cue with a metal weight bolt would play more solidly and have better resonance since metal will resonate much better than wood and of coarse, is much denser. Now there may be proof, one way or another, to this effect but logically? I think the summation points in the other direction.

Dick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey, why is it logical that a cue with no weight bolt would play more solidly and resonate better than one without? Logically (meaning that under set conditions, but not proof, a conclusion may be assumed), I would assume that a cue with a metal weight bolt would play more solidly and have better resonance since metal will resonate much better than wood and of coarse, is much denser. Now there may be proof, one way or another, to this effect but logically? I think the summation points in the other direction.

Dick

I did an experiment with an 18 oz sneaky I built one time.
I added weight at the bottom. After the bolt got up to 3/4 of an ounce, I hated the hit. It just lost most of the feeling. The cue just reasonated much better with no bolt.

 

[icem3n]

I did an experiment with an 18 oz sneaky I built one time.
I added weight at the bottom. After the bolt got up to 3/4 of an ounce, I hated the hit. It just lost most of the feeling. The cue just reasonated much better with no bolt.

I have the same encounter as Joey and I have to agree with him. The hit does change. Even small aluminum bolt that hold the bumper also does have some effect on the hit.

I know that people can adjust weight of the cue with weight bolt. Imo, for a production cue using weight bolt that is acceptable but for a custom cue maker they should consider doing cue without weight bolt. Cue maker know the wood properties and weight. They have been working with woods for decade and should know the densities and combination of wood mixed to acquire a certain weight whether it is in the forearm, points, rings, butt-sleeve, inlays, joint and handle. I believe pre and early 1900 cues are built with ebony and rosewood butt to enquire certain weight without weight bolt by full-splicing or butterfly. I think that is also the reason why different wood are use in the butt of the cue for and not just for aesthetic. Why breaking away from the tradition and settle for short-cut just to achieve a weight range? I’m not a cuemaker and I’m not trying to bash on cuemakers. I just trying to share my problem encounter with this issue and do hope cue maker can make changes in the way they built cue.

I have seen several cues from a respectable cue maker in picture. His cues demand high price. He is a cue maker (not a very good pool player) that learned to make better cue from top pool players back two to three decade or more. Every picture I seen in the cue with the bumper open, there are usually no weight bolt. It was not until I had the problem with the weight bolt only did I reflect back to this photos and this cue maker.

 

[rhncue]

I have the same encounter as Joey and I have to agree with him. The hit does change. Even small aluminum bolt that hold the bumper also does have some effect on the hit.

I know that people can adjust weight of the cue with weight bolt. Imo, for a production cue using weight bolt that is acceptable but for a custom cue maker they should consider doing cue without weight bolt. Cue maker know the wood properties and weight. They have been working with woods for decade and should know the densities and combination of wood mixed to acquire a certain weight whether it is in the forearm, points, rings, butt-sleeve, inlays, joint and handle. I believe pre and early 1900 cues are built with ebony and rosewood butt to enquire certain weight without weight bolt by full-splicing or butterfly. I think that is also the reason why different wood are use in the butt of the cue for and not just for aesthetic. Why breaking away from the tradition and settle for short-cut just to achieve a weight range? I’m not a cuemaker and I’m not trying to bash on cuemakers. I just trying to share my problem encounter with this issue and do hope cue maker can make changes in the way they built cue.

I have seen several cues from a respectable cue maker in picture. His cues demand high price. He is a cue maker (not a very good pool player) that learned to make better cue from top pool players back two to three decade or more. Every picture I seen in the cue with the bumper open, there are usually no weight bolt. It was not until I had the problem with the weight bolt only did I reflect back to this photos and this cue maker.

I still disagree. I totally agree that having or not having a weight bolt can change the feel of a cue. Just removing the rubber bumper changes the feel. That, however, was not the question. The question was, " by not having a weight bolt make the cue hit more solidly and have a better resonance" and I don't think has been ascertained.

Dick

 

[JoeyInCali]

I still disagree. I totally agree that having or not having a weight bolt can change the feel of a cue. Just removing the rubber bumper changes the feel. That, however, was not the question. The question was, " by not having a weight bolt make the cue hit more solidly and have a better resonance" and I don't think has been ascertained.

Dick

True but he has a 19 oz cue he was exploring the possibility of adding one ounce of weight.

 

[charlieb]

I have one of Joey's cues with no weight bolt, in fact no metal at all, the pin is G-10, and the balance and hit is as pure as you could ever want. More work, I'm sure but the end result is worth it. JMO

 

[icem3n]

I still disagree. I totally agree that having or not having a weight bolt can change the feel of a cue. Just removing the rubber bumper changes the feel. That, however, was not the question. The question was, " by not having a weight bolt make the cue hit more solidly and have a better resonance" and I don't think has been ascertained.

Dick

Dick, I’m sorry for the confusion. They are several type of bumper. I don’t how you guys called it. But I try to descript the best I can.

1.Pop in bumper.
2.Screw type/in bumper.
3.Rubber built together/bond with aluminum bolt.(have to use hexagon head driver to open the bumper) (also enabling short extension to be used in bumper)
4.Bumper that connected/attached to a bolt (using screw). The bolt can be a weight bolt or just a device/aid to hold/secure the bumper.

They maybe more type (which I don’t know) but all my cues have one or the other. The one I mentioned regarding effecting hit is the bumper that has to make use of a bolt to attach itself to the cue (item 4 above).

 

[pdcue]

I did an experiment with an 18 oz sneaky I built one time.
I added weight at the bottom. After the bolt got up to 3/4 of an ounce, I hated the hit. It just lost most of the feeling. The cue just reasonated much better with no bolt.

Sorry Joey, let me repeat good hit is subjective, highly subjective.
No doubt you liked it less with the bolt, but that is your opinion.
You ae entitled to your opinion, but I am convinced, many other
players would think just the oposite.

Dale

 

[JoeyInCali]

Sorry Joey, let me repeat good hit is subjective, highly subjective.
No doubt you liked it less with the bolt, but that is your opinion.
You ae entitled to your opinion, but I am convinced, many other
players would think just the oposite.

Dale

True.
But I am convinced by getting to the desired weight of the cue with as little weight added as possible makes for a better " reasonating cue". Just my 2 cents. Let's say someone wants a 19 OZ cue but wants lacewood or zebrawood forearm. I'd use a heavy rosewood handle to get close to that weight instead of maple and adding weight at the A-joint area and at the bottom. Good hit to me is good cueball action and good feel of the cue.
Cueball moves easily and the cue lets you know how you hit the cueball.

 

[rhncue]

True.
But I am convinced by getting to the desired weight of the cue with as little weight added as possible makes for a better " reasonating cue". Just my 2 cents. Let's say someone wants a 19 OZ cue but wants lacewood or zebrawood forearm. I'd use a heavy rosewood handle to get close to that weight instead of maple and adding weight at the A-joint area and at the bottom. Good hit to me is good cueball action and good feel of the cue.
Cueball moves easily and the cue lets you know how you hit the cueball.

If you use the Lacewood/Rosewood combo as in your description, just where would your balance point be? I believe it would be quite futile trying to reach a particular target weight and balance point and final cue dimensions without a metal pin in the A-joint on most cues. I don't like butt heavy cues so I don't use a bolt in the back of my cues for added weight, but I do add weight if necessary, up in the handle. I build forward weighted cues. 19.25 to 19.75 inch from rear of cue and, by design, I try to have them come in .25 to .5 oz. underweight. Using your combination, I would guess, would bring the balance point back to around 16 to 16.5 inch. I am just assuming here but I imagine that your cues are built for resale and not built to a customers specs or often it would be physically impossible to build what they requested, without metal weight added into the process.

I believe there are few custom cue-makers who build cues their cues just for the profit. They all get into the field and come up with their techniques believing they will build a better mouse trap. There are only a few things that are written in stone in this craft. There are many ways to make most of the parts and final construction of a cue. Often, the techniques needed to build a cue, are passed on from one cue maker to his helper or student and then this is ingrained into that persons persona and he then believes that is the best or only correct way to do a task. Cue makers build their cues to play and feel the way they like, which is great. When I talk with other cue makers who do something differently than myself I often ask them why? Does it make the cue more structurally sound? Does it make it more lively? Does it make the finish wear better and so on. Often, it is the only way they have learned to do and they feel it is the best way or they feel that it affects the hit of their cue in a way they like. This is fine as that is the reason they are building the cue to start with, to feel and shoot better than another brand of cue, in their opinion. What I usually question is when they state that their cues have certain attributes as fact, that haven't been proven. I've done this a number of times on this forum. I don't believe that just because a person believes something is true that in actuality it is. I've heard a number of techniques described that people take as gospel that are not proven in the least. People hear a lie or a fact enough times and they believe it. Just look at our present sitting President and his administration to see what I'm talking about.

Dick

 

[pdcue]

True.
But I am convinced by getting to the desired weight of the cue with as little weight added as possible makes for a better " reasonating cue". Just my 2 cents. Let's say someone wants a 19 OZ cue but wants lacewood or zebrawood forearm. I'd use a heavy rosewood handle to get close to that weight instead of maple and adding weight at the A-joint area and at the bottom. Good hit to me is good cueball action and good feel of the cue.
Cueball moves easily and the cue lets you know how you hit the cueball.

I'll try this just one more time.

There is no one standard

You keep refering to your 'good feel'.
I don't know how many cues you hit with, or how many
players you talk to. But, I promise you, the old cliche
"one man's meat, is another man's poison" is never more true
than in the issue of 'hit' of a cue. followed closely, IMHO, by 'balance'

It is entirely possible that a cue you love, I would hate.
And, vice versa.

Long story short, the only opinion on hit that really matters
is the guy that is forking over his hard earned money to
buy a cue.

Dale

 

[icem3n]

Guys, i think the best is to test on a very plain jane(like a Harvey). Plain solid maple butt. No A-joint. No balance issue i.e. any type of joint can be use as a test.

Two test:
1. With bolt of any weight.
2. Without bolt.

Anyone care to carry out such test/ survey with your local Pro player?
I know it hasn't been done.
I can't do it here. Firstly I do not have such cue. Two, no such pro here.