What are the reasons not to set the pin with super glue?

[JC]

I know this has been discussed but I am having trouble searching for this topic. I'm talking about self centering type pins with a machined barrel. But maybe other types too.

It seems to me that with a properly machined joint hole where the pin fits tight and straight dry that medium super glue should do the job with less fuss and muss than epoxy. A properly machined hole and shaft threads will darn near hold the pin with no glue.

I glued one in a rehab cue with CA yesterday to see how it went. I liked the lack of glue continuing to bubble up at the base. I spun it after seating it and it had about .0015 runout which is fine in my world. I cannot remove it today.

Will the glue fail with time? I have always heard not to use super glue but I really am wondering if there is science behind this or just superstition.

Thanks

 

[rhinobywilhite]

See if you can remove as if you needed to replace a pin.

 

[JC]

See if you can remove as if you needed to replace a pin.

I don't want to remove or destroy this one.

So what will happen? Can't get it out even with heat without pulling wood out?

Please explain.

 

[Sheldon]

You think you'll always get the pin set properly before the super glue kicks off? What if you get a little excess on the pin or the joint face? I think the main issue is that you want a glue with a little elasticity for this application.

 

[Mcues]

Slow curing glues and epoxies outperform the instant or five minute types, specially, in stress type of joints.

Mario

 

[JC]

You think you'll always get the pin set properly before the super glue kicks off? What if you get a little excess on the pin or the joint face? I think the main issue is that you want a glue with a little elasticity for this application.

Yes you better be plenty organized before go time. Wouldn't try it with thin glue for sure. I built a good delrin pin setting jig that screws it in real fast. The one I did I screwed it in dry a few times as a tester for time. No second chances.

Not too worried about over flow on the joint or pin. Acetone cleans up fresh glue without a trace in my experience.

One thing that drives me crazy with epoxy is I will set the pin and check the runout on my lathe and it's just right. Sometimes can't even see the needle rock. Set it aside face up to dry and the next day there may be .003" more runout than when you set it there. Not sure what's causing that as it dries. There isn't nearly that much clearance in the barrel hole to the pin. Been using west system due to viscosity mostly.

That's one reason I've been pondering options.

 

[JoeyInCali]

One thing that drives me crazy with epoxy is I will set the pin and check the runout on my lathe and it's just right. Sometimes can't even see the needle rock. Set it aside face up to dry and the next day there may be .003" more runout than when you set it there. Not sure what's causing that as it dries. There isn't nearly that much clearance in the barrel hole to the pin. Been using west system due to viscosity mostly.

That's one reason I've been pondering options.

Solved that problem by using 1/2 micarta insert the length of the barrel.
Cuts clean and does not move. Even if you dry fit the screw over and over again. Unlike wood. You can even use Juma.

CA is horrible for joint screw install. It will eventually buzz . It does not fill the gaps. How much gap do you have at the bottom if you don't live thread the screw? Lots of clearance for the tap .
CA's are not meant to be thick . They are meant for thin application .

West 206 is perfect if your hole is good.
Blow hot air inside to open up wood pores. Let epoxy wick.
Follow with ketchup thick. No gaps.
More work as you have to clean up after the goo surfaces.
But, the cue is not even in the lathe anymore when I do that.
I know the screw is good .
Blow air and use thinner dipped q tip to clean.

 

[Pete Tonkin]

Yes you better be plenty organized before go time. Wouldn't try it with thin glue for sure. I built a good delrin pin setting jig that screws it in real fast. The one I did I screwed it in dry a few times as a tester for time. No second chances.

Not too worried about over flow on the joint or pin. Acetone cleans up fresh glue without a trace in my experience.

One thing that drives me crazy with epoxy is I will set the pin and check the runout on my lathe and it's just right. Sometimes can't even see the needle rock. Set it aside face up to dry and the next day there may be .003" more runout than when you set it there. Not sure what's causing that as it dries. There isn't nearly that much clearance in the barrel hole to the pin. Been using west system due to viscosity mostly.

That's one reason I've been pondering options.

Did you indicate the joint before you put the pin in ?
Did you indicate the joint when you put back in the lathe to check ?

If its run out from the chuck use a lead hammer and tap the high jaw tell you get no run out. Than check the pin or install the pin.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

CA is horrible for joint screw install. It will eventually buzz . It does not fill the gaps. How much gap do you have at the bottom if you don't live thread the screw? Lots of clearance for the tap .
CA's are not meant to be thick . They are meant for thin application .

Solution, get a taper tap, plug tap(normal tap), and a bottoming tap. And in a couple cases, I have a finishing tap with no chamfer to start to do a finishing tap. Eliminates a lot of the dead space.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Solution, get a taper tap, plug tap(normal tap), and a bottoming tap. And in a couple cases, I have a finishing tap with no chamfer to start to do a finishing tap. Eliminates a lot of the dead space.

I live thread all screws except the radials.
The bottom threads of barreled joint screws are undersized BTW.
They give you lots of gaps if you tap.

 

[JC]

I live thread all screws except the radials.
The bottom threads of barreled joint screws are undersized BTW.
They give you lots of gaps if you tap.

I tap with a bottoming tap and keep the dead air to a minimum but you still need about .040" down there beyond the pin to keep it floating and not binding on the bottom of the hole.

Agreed it's not a good idea to let air live there. I did consider this. On the tester I puddled it in the bottom of the hole and screwed the pin in in about 5 seconds with my depth setting jig. It did come out the glue relief channel a little so I believe the cavity is full. I wiped that off while it was still wet with no solvent and it cleaned up nicely on the joint face without a trace of it. I used the extra set time thick glue which is still considerably thinner than west system.

As I'm learning there are other reasons not to use CA. Not sure still that it's not viable with the right CA and the right process. I like your idea for the sleeve Joey thank you. That may be a simple step that will cure my frustration with epoxy. Can I ask you what thread mill you use to reach the end of your hole? I much prefer to live thread also. The only one I have that's long enough is too big on the head to fit in a 5/16 hole. I bought one from Hightower with a 1/8 shank and it chattered and broke pretty directly at the bottom of a deep hole. 80 bucks bye bye in a split second.

Thanks

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I tap with a bottoming tap and keep the dead air to a minimum but you still need about .040" down there beyond the pin to keep it floating and not binding on the bottom of the hole.

Agreed it's not a good idea to let air live there. I did consider this. On the tester I puddled it in the bottom of the hole and screwed the pin in in about 5 seconds with my depth setting jig. It did come out the glue relief channel a little so I believe the cavity is full. I wiped that off while it was still wet with no solvent and it cleaned up nicely on the joint face without a trace of it. I used the extra set time thick glue which is still considerably thinner than west system.

As I'm learning there are other reasons not to use CA. Not sure still that it's not viable with the right CA and the right process. I like your idea for the sleeve Joey thank you. That may be a simple step that will cure my frustration with epoxy. Can I ask you what thread mill you use to reach the end of your hole? I much prefer to live thread also. The only one I have that's long enough is too big on the head to fit in a 5/16 hole. I bought one from Hightower with a 1/8 shank and it chattered and broke pretty directly at the bottom of a deep hole. 80 bucks bye bye in a split second.

Thanks

And the CA could still be a liquid down there too. Don't forget that epoxies cure via a chemical reaction within their perspective parts being combined. CA glues cure via an oxygen exposure. A large pool of CA trapped under a joint pin could potentially take weeks or months to dry. Yes ever though it is cured at the exposed part, the unexposed pool could still be liquid and you'd never know until it dries and creates a void.

 

[conetip]

ca glues have changed a lot over the last 10 years.
You may well be able to ca a joint pin and 5 years later it is still all ok. Early ca were brittle and could not take the cyclic loads that a cue joint puts on the pin at all.
Try one, put it in some form of cyclic loading testing thing, let it bang away for a few months 24/7 and see how it goes.

 

[JC]

Solved that problem by using 1/2 micarta insert the length of the barrel.
Cuts clean and does not move. Even if you dry fit the screw over and over again. Unlike wood. You can even use Juma.

Do you have a picture of the finished joint face? Does that little ring of light material around the pin look odd next to a black joint collar?

Thanks

 

[JoeyInCali]

Do you have a picture of the finished joint face? Does that little ring of light material around the pin look odd next to a black joint collar?

Thanks

This one is not a finished cue yet.
Still needs cleaning.
But, it looks ok to me .
I do have a larger tenon than most. I use a .675 tenon instead of .625.

 

[JC]

This one is not a finished cue yet.
Still needs cleaning.
But, it looks ok to me .
I do have a larger tenon than most. I use a .675 tenon instead of .625.

Thank you for posting that Joey.

Since that solves the problem of the pin wandering upon gluing it's definitely worth it.

I build my collars so you would only see the collar and the insert on the face.

What do you think about using polypropylene rod there?

 

[Kim Bye]

Looks really nice Joey. I like that approach, it gives consistency and very clean threads.
I assume you thread the outside of that micarta insert?

 

[JC]

Looks really nice Joey. I like that approach, it gives consistency and very clean threads.
I assume you thread the outside of that micarta insert?

I don't think it affects the threads at all as I understand it the insert is only as long as the barrel and the pin is threaded into wood below that. Which makes threading the insert unnecessary because it's not bearing any load. It's only purpose is to keep the pin dead nuts while gluing the pin in. It is in no danger of falling out with the cue completed simply glued on the outside to the inside of the core. Threading it would compromise the core by cutting toward the collar.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Looks really nice Joey. I like that approach, it gives consistency and very clean threads.
I assume you thread the outside of that micarta insert?

About half of the body is threaded.
Bottom has a lead. I use that to gauge the hole before I thread it.
I live thread it so the face has no threads.
I go in about .100" with the thread mill.
I counter bore to tight fit of the top of the insert.
I keep the top of the insert about .002-.003 larger.
Fills the hole/no glue ring.

You don't really need to thread it because it's not the length of the screw.
The bottom threads of the screw will hold it anyway.
But, I like cranking them to place and just let glue dry overnight.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Thank you for posting that Joey.

Since that solves the problem of the pin wandering upon gluing it's definitely worth it.

I build my collars so you would only see the collar and the insert on the face.

What do you think about using polypropylene rod there?

So long as it glues well, I suppose.
You can use black canvas too if you like it black.