What constitutes a bad hit?

R

Rickw

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was playing this guy this morning and he had a shot on the 8 ball (we were playing BCA rules 8 ball) and the cue ball was about 1/16" away from the 8 ball and both balls were in a direct line to the corner pocket. He shot the cue ball with his stick horizontally flat and shot through the cue ball. I told him that was a foul. He disagreed. I told him that if the cue ball and the 8 ball were completely frozen, he could have made that shot without fouling but because they were just a hair apart, it constituted a foul.

I my opinion, you can't hit the cue ball just once and follow through on a shot like that. The cue ball will bounce off of the object ball and contact your cue tip again resulting in a foul.

Can someone wade in on this please? Thank you!

PS I'll be printing your responses and bringing them for him to read on Monday.
 
See rule 2.20... click here for rules... it's the one that covers your situation.

And imo, what 2.20 does not state is... the stroke of shot is essentially in the general direction of the close object ball... because, most certainly, you can barely skim the object ball with the cue ball and it will definitely travel more than 1/2 a ball... and that type of shot is definitely legal (of course, assuming a ball either is pocketed or a ball goes to a rail).
 
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I believe you are correct. I don't have any documentation to prove it, but that's what I've always heard, and I've heard it mentioned on ESPN as well.

Edit: cigardave beat me to it, I couldn't find the rule
 
there are ways to hit it legally

If I remember correctly the rulebook is a little gray in this area. If you shoot directly into the object ball it is generally presumed to be a double hit. There are several ways to avoid a double hit even shooting directly at the object ball however. One is an air bridge and very high english. Don't try to draw the stick back, let it hit and glance off of the cue ball using care that you don't let the ferule or shaft strike the cue ball. Nobody can see if this is a double hit however your ears should tell you it isn't. Of course if the position of balls on the table justify doing it, any edge of the cueball can be hit the same way, not just top. Another option is that it is sometimes possible to create a set-up that physically makes it impossible to double hit the cue ball.

If the other player used a standard bridge and hit near the center of the cue ball shooting directly into the cue ball it is over 90% certain that he did double hit the cue ball.

Hu
 
Rickw said:
I was playing this guy this morning and he had a shot on the 8 ball (we were playing BCA rules 8 ball) and the cue ball was about 1/16" away from the 8 ball and both balls were in a direct line to the corner pocket. He shot the cue ball with his stick horizontally flat and shot through the cue ball. I told him that was a foul. He disagreed. I told him that if the cue ball and the 8 ball were completely frozen, he could have made that shot without fouling but because they were just a hair apart, it constituted a foul.

I my opinion, you can't hit the cue ball just once and follow through on a shot like that. The cue ball will bounce off of the object ball and contact your cue tip again resulting in a foul.

Can someone wade in on this please? Thank you!

PS I'll be printing your responses and bringing them for him to read on Monday.
Click to expand...
I wrote a whole series of articles about situations with the cue ball close to the object ball that you might want to print off for him. See the articles from 1993 at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

Remember that "Rule" 2.20 is not a rule. It is a guideline for judging hits when the cue ball is close to the object ball.

I think a better guideline is this: did the cue ball act the same way it would have if it had started back a foot from the object ball? For example, in the situation you described above, if your opponent had played with draw, the cue ball probably went straight forward at nearly the speed of the object ball and pulled to a stop from the draw. You can't get that action if the cue ball is back a foot. The concusion is that the forward speed of the cue ball is due to having been hit twice or continuously on the shot.

About the "continuously" part. In order to know whether the tip hit the cue ball twice, you need to know how long the tip is on the ball and how far the cue ball travels while still in contact with the tip. Some think this distance is several inches. Some think the ball leaves the tip instantaneously. Both groups are wrong. The tip is on the cue ball for about 1 to 2 thousandths of a second and during that time the cue ball might move a quarter inch on a hard shot. Or it might be a fraction of a millimeter for a soft shot. This means that the tip might have hit the cue ball only once on the shot you describe, but it is still a foul by the corresponding rule (NOT 2.20, but I don't have time to get a reference right now).

Most players don't know enough about position play to understand when they have fouled at such shots. One proposed solution is to allow multiple hits on the cue ball. Another is for the player to learn about those shots. I favor the latter approach.

There are techniques that might have permitted your opponent to shoot straight at the object ball with a level stick and not foul, but most players don't know those techniques. Some of them are described in the articles above.
 
Thank you. I will definitely show this to the other player. I play in a room where there are a lot of people that are not clear on the rules all the time, however, they are sticklers for the rules that they know. It will be helpful for all of them to have a better understanding of the rules.

I play tournaments a lot and knew this rule but they get kind of tired of me spouting the rules all the time, especially when that might result in me winning a game.
 
youre right, he would have hit everything twice but it all happens so fast and so smooth thats it just the nits to pick to talk about and generally over the other players head if they don't know or pretend not to know. It just means you can do it too....:cool:
 
BlackDragon said:
youre right, he would have hit everything twice but it all happens so fast and so smooth thats it just the nits to pick to talk about and generally over the other players head if they don't know or pretend not to know. It just means you can do it too....:cool:
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
 
I remember in one of Byrne's books there is also a description of watching for a double hit. If you want to see an example check out the video on propoolvideo site of Deuel v Strickland. After Corey double hits the cue ball Strickland jumps up and shouts foul. Its the video of the Fl Pro Mizerak State Championship semi 2.
 
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