What constitutes a players speed?

R

RobDeBank

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whenever I am in the pool hall and I hear people talking about how so and so is really good. The first thing I always think of is.... I know the guy plays pretty good but I don't think I have ever seen him string more than 2 racks before. Ya all around their game is alright but it's nothing that would suggest they are great. This happens all the time where I play pool, I very seldom think ya that player is really good, Is this because I watch a pro match every night when I go to bed and I hold everyone to those standards? I just have a hard time thinking someone is really good unless they are actually REALLY good. Everyone else to me is just ok I guess. Their are like 6-7 really good players where I live though.

So what does it mean when a player is really good?
 
that depends

RobDeBank said:
Whenever I am in the pool hall and I hear people talking about how so and so is really good. The first thing I always think of is.... I know the guy plays pretty good but I don't think I have ever seen him string more than 2 racks before. Ya all around their game is alright but it's nothing that would suggest they are great. This happens all the time where I play pool, I very seldom think ya that player is really good, Is this because I watch a pro match every night when I go to bed and I hold everyone to those standards? I just have a hard time thinking someone is really good unless they are actually REALLY good. Everyone else to me is just ok I guess. Their are like 6-7 really good players where I live though.

So what does it mean when a player is really good?
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Balls ran in straight pool is a good indicator. So is racks ran. However the very best indicator of all is does he or she get the cheese? Good pool players string together nice runs. Really good and great pool players find a way to get the cheese.

The two aren't always the same. There is many a player that looks fantastic until the pressure is on them that ain't too fancy when they are sweating marbles.

Hu
 
Speed

Back in the 60's, 70's, players were judged for money matches on a scale of 1 to 10. These speeds came into play when 2 players were negotiating a game, and possibly a spot.

Today, that scale is 1 to 15 with Efren being a 15. Most amateur handicapped 9 ball tournaments anymore are handicapped 2-12. Tony Fargo, for example, played here quite a few times in Shooter's Thanksgiving tournament as an 11.

I, on a personal basis, rate players to 1 or 2 decimal places. For example, I might rate 1 player a 8.2, and another player 8.9. If they were to play each other in a money match, I would bet on the 8.9. I am basically saying the 8.9 is 3/4's of a ball better than the 8.2.

First, you judge a player's form and stroke, next how good they can run out with a variety of shots, next how good they break, next how good they can bank (a lot of players don't pass this evaluation), how good they can kick (again, a lot of players don't pass this), how good they can jump, and how good they can masse, and how well they stand up to pressure. That's my basic evaluation of a player to judge their speed.

And I notice whether they have any form or stroke deficiencies when they are under pressure, like twisting their wrist, gripping the cue too tight, punching the cue ball instead of stroking it, gripping the cue with a full fist, etc.. Oh, bout forgot, you have to consider whether they are basically a money player or tournament player. If a money player, what level of money do they play for, or have played for. There's a difference between a $100 a set money player from a $500/$2,000 a set money player.

Anyway, that is how I do it, and have for a long long time.
 
Snapshot9 said:
Back in the 60's, 70's, players were judged for money matches on a scale of 1 to 10. These speeds came into play when 2 players were negotiating a game, and possibly a spot.

Today, that scale is 1 to 15 with Efren being a 15. Most amateur handicapped 9 ball tournaments anymore are handicapped 2-12. Tony Fargo, for example, played here quite a few times in Shooter's Thanksgiving tournament as an 11.

I, on a personal basis, rate players to 1 or 2 decimal places. For example, I might rate 1 player a 8.2, and another player 8.9. If they were to play each other in a money match, I would bet on the 8.9. I am basically saying the 8.9 is 3/4's of a ball better than the 8.2.

First, you judge a player's form and stroke, next how good they can run out with a variety of shots, next how good they break, next how good they can bank (a lot of players don't pass this evaluation), how good they can kick (again, a lot of players don't pass this), how good they can jump, and how good they can masse, and how well they stand up to pressure. That's my basic evaluation of a player to judge their speed.

And I notice whether they have any form or stroke deficiencies when they are under pressure, like twisting their wrist, gripping the cue too tight, punching the cue ball instead of stroking it, gripping the cue with a full fist, etc.. Oh, bout forgot, you have to consider whether they are basically a money player or tournament player. If a money player, what level of money do they play for, or have played for. There's a difference between a $100 a set money player from a $500/$2,000 a set money player.

Anyway, that is how I do it, and have for a long long time.
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Efren doesn't have a big break, doesn't jump well, and doesn't have an orthodox form or stroke, but still rates at the top of your totem-pole. You also didn't mention safety play which is arguably Efren's biggest asset, and one of the most important aspects of any game. I would say the only true way to rate a player's speed is how they fair against other players. If a "really good" player beats another "really good" player consistently, he plays better, but it's all relative of course
 
RobDeBank said:
Whenever I am in the pool hall and I hear people talking about how so and so is really good. The first thing I always think of is.... I know the guy plays pretty good but I don't think I have ever seen him string more than 2 racks before. Ya all around their game is alright but it's nothing that would suggest they are great. This happens all the time where I play pool, I very seldom think ya that player is really good, Is this because I watch a pro match every night when I go to bed and I hold everyone to those standards? I just have a hard time thinking someone is really good unless they are actually REALLY good. Everyone else to me is just ok I guess. Their are like 6-7 really good players where I live though.

So what does it mean when a player is really good?
Click to expand...

The way I approach it: whether in my stomping grounds or a pool hall half way across the country, anybody i get ready to play is at least a ball better than they have shown.

I haven't seen Chip or Joey put big packages together. I guess that means they are just OK players.

If you believe what you see, your wallet is about to get a little lighter.

Just a few thoughts

Steven
 
To most, results speak for themselves especially in regards to money matches and tournament wins. If they keep winning regardless of how they do it their speed is rated higher. On a less superficial level, I think speed has to do with knowledge about the game(pattern play, understanding percentages, seeing higher quality shots someone with less speed would not see, understanding how to hit certain difficult shots to improve the percentage, using necessary english for that particular shot..etc etc etc), execution of shots and execution under distress. Pocket billiards is a game of percentages and some people can outrun percentages with great pocketing but a great pocketer with position play will rule in the end. This is why I believe Buddy Hall is still the best 9 ball player ever to play the game. His decision making, ball pocketing, and control of white is a notch above the rest.
 
Good feedback mostly.

Well first off to the guy who assumed the worlds biggest nit and will lose my money quick. I don't just assume things about a players speed because I seen them play a set. Most of the players in my hometown I have seen play tons of times, I have seen certain players classified as really good play tons of sets and like I said they seem incapable of stringing racks. I think any really good player can string 2-3 racks at least once out of every 5 sets or so. Some the of the really "really good" players in my town I have never seen run a three pack... ever.

To answer the other question, the few actual really good players in my town, consistently run out, have really good knowledge of the game, have great fundamentals, and have beaten many top pro's in tournaments. Now keep in mind I am not saying they just go around beating the world but they play good enough that in a race to 5 or 7 against a top players, they have a significant chance at winning and have done so in the past. So I mean to these few players I just flat out give them their props but to the many other players that are considered to be great players I just cant do it. It sounds really negative of me but I just flat out say it all the time when I hear the word being tossed around so loosely. I just say no he's really not that great, he plays a solid game but IMO a lot of people are so confined to their leagues and current levels of play that maybe they just have no idea what a really great player looks like.

Usually they are like well he's better than you and I usually think... alright cool, I'm a high B player... I don't understand how them being better than me is relevant. I guess it just really makes me mad because it diminishes the word and their are so few actual great players that they deserve respect for how good they really are.

Sorry if I'm confusing anyone I just think the general pool playing population has no or little idea of how good top players really are.
 
Sorry if I'm confusing anyone I just think the general pool playing population has no or little idea of how good top players really are.[/QUOTE]

Very true, and it's the pool players' curse - we all think we're capable of greatness and we're just not, and never will be.

Sent from my LG-P500 using Tapatalk
 
some are just lucky

RobDeBank said:
Sorry if I'm confusing anyone I just think the general pool playing population has no or little idea of how good top players really are.
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Some players are just lucky. When they get lucky too long . . .

A few decades ago a traveler came to my small town. There was only one pool player in the town willing to bet enough to be worth the trip, me. The man sat at the bar and watched me play for three nights. After watching me a couple hours the third night he decided he didn't like what he had seen and struck up a conversation admitting he had scouted me for three nights. Best I recall he never saw me run a single rack playing on the seven foot Valleys in the place, I certainly never ran two in a row.

Hu
 
highkarate said:
Efren doesn't have a big break, doesn't jump well, and doesn't have an orthodox form or stroke, but still rates at the top of your totem-pole. You also didn't mention safety play which is arguably Efren's biggest asset, and one of the most important aspects of any game. I would say the only true way to rate a player's speed is how they fair against other players. If a "really good" player beats another "really good" player consistently, he plays better, but it's all relative of course
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right, I forgot safety play, and Efren break is okay, not great by any means but okay. I still consider him the best all around player out there. I could have said Dennis Orcullo, but I don't know how strong he plays 1 hole, 14.1, 8 ball since I have just seen him playing 9 and 10 ball.

And your statement about really good players is usually true, except sometimes one player can have a psychological advantage over another player, and sometimes a player can not just beat some players even though they might be better. Sometimes, time-in-rank makes a difference, and let's use Efren and Dennis as an example. I would speculate that Efren probably played Dennis for money in the past, probably beat him, and maybe even spotted him, so that gives Efren a little bit of psychological advantage over Dennis. If they played an all around competition with several games, who would you bet on to win??
 
RobDeBank said:
Whenever I am in the pool hall and I hear people talking about how so and so is really good. The first thing I always think of is.... I know the guy plays pretty good but I don't think I have ever seen him string more than 2 racks before. Ya all around their game is alright but it's nothing that would suggest they are great. This happens all the time where I play pool, I very seldom think ya that player is really good, Is this because I watch a pro match every night when I go to bed and I hold everyone to those standards? I just have a hard time thinking someone is really good unless they are actually REALLY good. Everyone else to me is just ok I guess. Their are like 6-7 really good players where I live though.

So what does it mean when a player is really good?
Click to expand...


Time in between each shot. Rythm
 
Would you say someone that ran 6 racks to be a great player? How about someone who ran 12 racks? I can tell you I know the two people who just did this for the cash, both ran the set out, and they aren't great players. They are good A players though.
 
backplaying said:
Would you say someone that ran 6 racks to be a great player? How about someone who ran 12 racks? I can tell you I know the two people who just did this for the cash, both ran the set out, and they aren't great players. They are good A players though.
Click to expand...

running 6 vs running 12 is a HUGE difference
bet on the 12 runner:D
 
backplaying said:
Would you say someone that ran 6 racks to be a great player? How about someone who ran 12 racks? I can tell you I know the two people who just did this for the cash, both ran the set out, and they aren't great players. They are good A players though.
Click to expand...

Isn't it interesting that there are many "great" players who' ve never done that?
Myself included. :D
 
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