What constitutes being rated an A LEVEL player
- Thread starter recoveryjones
- Start date
OK now this is my 2cents, Since i have no clue on what my ratings are and everyone in my area goes by the APA ratings, like saying Joe Banks is a 6 and his brother Charlie is a 7.
Now i have always figured the APA Rankings 1-9 basically was a tell of how many balls you should run in a open table. Now i have never played APA 9ball so i dont know what they limit the ratings at. But always thought the Ratings went from 1 being lowest to AA being highest. And i would say after being rated AA you would be consider'd PRO
Now of course i have heard this before where in one town, Joe is rated a 6 but in another town he is Rated a 7.
But the pool hall i frequent runs a Open 9ball tournament on 7ft tables, and gets a wide variety of the better players in the area. Jason Kirkwood has played in the last two tournaments and won, Rick Schroeder has played in one, Dirk Vanderploeg has played in the last two, Jason Hall plays in them, and same with Juan Garcia.
And all of these guys are probably rated A or AA. And i know Jason is probably even with the Pro's, yet isnt consider'd a pro.
And the difference between all those guys listed, if they played each other. ISNT ALOT, its basically who gets the opening break and who makes a ball on every break, and how good your safties are.
As for using the AA, A,B,C,D,E ratings, i never did like it because the difference between a E/D player isnt alot, same with a D/C except the C player will have the occasional run-out or break n run.
Same goes for C/B the B player is expected to run out more often expecially from the break, or they will play a good Safe, and then run out.
And everything gets amplified as you get to a A or AA player.
I know someone else talked about ratings based on this type of play too.
Now i have always figured the APA Rankings 1-9 basically was a tell of how many balls you should run in a open table. Now i have never played APA 9ball so i dont know what they limit the ratings at. But always thought the Ratings went from 1 being lowest to AA being highest. And i would say after being rated AA you would be consider'd PRO
Now of course i have heard this before where in one town, Joe is rated a 6 but in another town he is Rated a 7.
But the pool hall i frequent runs a Open 9ball tournament on 7ft tables, and gets a wide variety of the better players in the area. Jason Kirkwood has played in the last two tournaments and won, Rick Schroeder has played in one, Dirk Vanderploeg has played in the last two, Jason Hall plays in them, and same with Juan Garcia.
And all of these guys are probably rated A or AA. And i know Jason is probably even with the Pro's, yet isnt consider'd a pro.
And the difference between all those guys listed, if they played each other. ISNT ALOT, its basically who gets the opening break and who makes a ball on every break, and how good your safties are.
As for using the AA, A,B,C,D,E ratings, i never did like it because the difference between a E/D player isnt alot, same with a D/C except the C player will have the occasional run-out or break n run.
Same goes for C/B the B player is expected to run out more often expecially from the break, or they will play a good Safe, and then run out.
And everything gets amplified as you get to a A or AA player.
I know someone else talked about ratings based on this type of play too.
I believe an A player is one that rarely (perhaps only two or three times per race to nine) gives up the table other than when failing to make a ball on the break, having to push, or leaving opponent safe. The A player creates many fewer chances to run out with their break or moves game (defense, kicking and two way shots) than a professional, but runs out a table having no major issues nearly as consistently as a professional. Consequently, an A player has enough game than when their break is working and they are playing the "moves game" well, they have a very real chance to beat a professional on average-difficulty equipment.
sjm said:
Thanks SJM (and everyone else), That sounds a little closer to what our A+'s are like down here and probably a little closer to what an A should be. In our bigger yearly events that attract pros, the best I've ever seen an A player finish is 4th. Two A+'s have won the big tourneys and the rest of the time it's usually one of 6-8 local area pros.
I've beaten a few pros (3 wins out of many) in short races to 3 or 4 in our pool halls local weekly tourney. With some fortunate rolls and an off day for the pro an A level player can win those shorter races. In the longer races to 7,9 and 11 etc, the pro almost allways prevails over the A level player. RJ
ps. AZ billiards rocks.....I posted the same thread at Billiards Digest with not a response.Gotta love AZ.
turquoisecrazy
Banned
Not to put anyone down, but yo from Vancouver, BC, Canada, right. There aren't any top player there, no money action, and no big tournament. Pool players make no money there, that is what I heard, is that right?
Go across the border and most of your P or P+ or P++ are no longer the sure winner. Mike Vidas is alright. But he is new. Not a top pro really. U need to have many guys like him to have action and great pool showings. How can u guys improve?
Go across the border and most of your P or P+ or P++ are no longer the sure winner. Mike Vidas is alright. But he is new. Not a top pro really. U need to have many guys like him to have action and great pool showings. How can u guys improve?
turquoisecrazy said:
John Horsfall is the only local pro to have any success on the big tour in the USA winning two tourneys and losing a hill-hill final to Bustamante at the 2003 International tournament of Champions after beating Strickland and Soquet in earlier rounds to get to the final.You are right about Vancouver being pretty much a dead town for gambling(except for 3 or 4 players) action and big tourney payouts.
A few of our pros like Stan Tourangeau(last years Pechauer overall champion), Paul Potier and Mike Vidas do in fact hit the road down to the USA to play in tourneys.Unfortunatley they don't find much money down there either because pool is a sport where payouts are poor no matter where you go. Sure the odd tourney will pay $10,000(or more) to the winner, however, when there are 64-120 players or more going after that $10,000 grand, the odds arent good for anyone.Finish out of the top four and in most tournaments you can't pay your traveling expenses. So in reality there really isn't any significant money to speak of down there either. If you want money in pool,take up British snooker or go to the San Migeul tournament circuit in Asia.
Most of our pros that travel do improve, because by playing the best competition possible, that's how you improve.As for the A level and A+ level players locally, there is more than enough good competition here to challenge our games, especially when there is usually a pro our two entered in our weekly tourneys.
Anyways, if you want to come down here and gamble, I know of a few players who will give you some action. We've got one pro here who reguliarly gives A level players the 6 up. I saw him lose $1500 lately, however, he usually wins. RJ
ps. Who are the top players from your city?
turquoisecrazy
Banned
recoveryjones said:
I live in LA. Have u been to hard time?
what is 1500? really...
Max, Jose...just a couple local guys here who can clean Paul up easily.
Lots of players are not as poor as you think. May be in your town it is. Stan T is the Indain guy, right? He is not a pro...if he was, he be playing in the BCA 9-ball championship rather than the 8 ball with the ameturers, man. Horsfall ever won any major title other than Reno and the Canadian? Pechauer tour is a local tour my friend. Does Corey, Archer, Reyes, strickland play in it...that is what i am talking about.
Best players in Canada are on the east, two names, Alex and Alain, that is the only world class champions Canada has, with all due respect.
The pros you mentioned dont win cos they aint good enough. Pros playing in weekly tournamt? What is the payout in those...if the pros are any good, and if there is action, they wont waste their time with you guys for what $200 a night?
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turquoisecrazy said:
This started out as a post about A level players and then you turn it in to a thread about how great players(Parcia's from the Phillipinnes) are in L.A and how much they play for and then you slam players from Vancouver.
It's easy to brag about Deule, Strickland and Archer (all great,great players), however, the bottom line is, is how good are YOU? What tourneys have YOU won? RJ
Bobby said:
True, Bobby, but even the three cushion system has its flaws.
A player's average shows the ratio of points scored to innings played, but in no way factors in the player's defensive skills. It's easily overlooked that defense is played in three cushion, but good players manage to play with an attention to detail in their shot selection and speed that often leads to tough leaves for opponent when they fail to score.
A .700 player with good defensive skills is a big favorite over one having poor defensive skills.
Pool's ABCD system probably does a better job of integrating the defensive and tactical skills of a player into that player's ranking, for the simple reason that a pool player's ranking is mostly based on who they've beat and who they haven't.
Anyway, Bobby, hope you're well, and hope to see you one of these days.
turquoisecrazy
Banned
recoveryjones said:
So, u wanna turn this thread into how good u can play, through we were talking about how to rate an A player?????
My point is how can yo rate an A in your town if all have to compare are guys like Horsfall and Paul and stan? Where were they during the Derby? Probably playing in some weekly tourny tryign to make a few bucks off you guys, that is what I am talking about..
turquoisecrazy said:So, u wanna turn this thread into how good u can play, through we were talking about how to rate an A player?????
My point is how can yo rate an A in your town if all have to compare are guys like Horsfall and Paul and stan? Where were they during the Derby? Probably playing in some weekly tourny tryign to make a few bucks off you guys, that is what I am talking about..
Horsfall and Potier have both qualified and played more than once at The World Pool Championships. On any given day they can and have beaten the top players in the world Including Soquet, Strickland etc. etc and most recently our local Mike Vidas beat Corey Deule and other noted pros to finish 3rd at a big tourney.
These guys are more than formidable opponents for any A LEVEL player, from anywhere in the world..... yes even from LA.By playing and watching these guys perform, any A Level player (from anywhere) will be certainly challenged and their skill will certainly improve. Sure maybe Parica and Max are better, however, this thread is about A level players. Hopefully your not suggesting that our local A LEVEL players are are being hampered(and rated) in improving by playing the lowly Horsfall , Potier, and Vidas as compared to the Mighty Max (Eberele ??) and Parcia. By your thread, that seems what you are suggesting, which is completley ridiculious. RJ
turquoisecrazy said:
You dont seem to know alot about the Canadian pool scene. When it comes to good young talent I will take what Canada has to offer atm over the USA, the future is not looking bright for the states and your soon to be over the hill pro player base.
PS: Is this Parica you speak of the same guy that got smoked by Tyler Edey in Reno? Cory the same that got smoked by Mike Vidas? You guys are lucky that the Canadians only make it out to the few tournaments that they do or they would be taking alot more of your prize money back north just like Edwin is gonna do with the 6 large from the Bar table championships 9-ball where alot of your own home grown pros came up short.
And furthermore you should not even be looking North to see the danger, the USA and Canada both are going to get drilled for decades from the Asian countries who are producing 15 year old players that can shoot as good as Archer. Think of where those kids will be in their 20's when your "pro" players finally break through and start winning. I would think your new young players like Basavich, Duell, Owen, and any of the other ones would have a real tough time beating Wu Chia Ching in a race to 11, and he is 16 years old.
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Celtic said:
I like your post regarding the upcoming talent pool in Asia, of which the Phillipines is also considered an Asian Country. Local pro Paul Potier said he was playing some 15 year old kid from Taiwan and leading him in a race (I don't remember the score he told me) , when the young Asian talent then broke(powerfully ,parking the cue ball center table) and ran 5 or 6 games in the row, parking Potier in his chair....SCARY. Potier also told me that there are about 3 or 4 15-16 year olds like that in Taiwan. I also remember reading an article that in some city's in Taiwan , POOL is a subject that they study in school.
I don't know about the American/Canadian young talent pool comparison, however, I'm sure that America will continue to produce great players. With a population 10 times the size of ours, the odds are that they'll have more young talent than us.I respect and appreciate American pool and for that matter, ANY player that I meet up with at a tournament because anybody can possibly beat you if you don't respect them.
Pros are everywhere from every country state and province and that's a given. It's the secondary players (The B+'s A's, A +'s and shortstops etc.) that vary in talent from city to city and country to country.There are many, many, many strong A's and A+'s from the Phillipines and Taiwan, that would give our A's and A+'s big time trouble here in Vancouver. How do I know this? Because I know A and A+ players locally who are from the Philipinnes and Taiwan. RJ
Celtic said:
If there were any money in pool, forget it, the US would dominate. No need to say anything more. Same with soccer and any other sport. Not being cockey, just the facts.
pete lafond said:
No doubt about it, money would attract talent.Corey Deule is a perfect example. Being a definite top 10 player (or perhaps rated even higher) Corey left pool for awhile to try his luck in the much more lucrative world of golf. Only a handful(reyes/Archer etc.) of pool players make decent money and the rest have understanding (working) girlfriends or wives.
If there was money in pool America, I'm sure would dominate Canada, simply from a 20-1 population factor, which is to be expected. RJ
recoveryjones said:
Believe it or not population has something to do with it but the reality is that the US is a very individualistic country. As long as we do not become too socialistic we'll do quite well. Socialism is the death of progress and freedom.
If there were more US interests, maybe some of our pros today would be considered only A players.
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pete lafond said:
No doubt money is a factor in sport, as evidenced by the USA's dominance at Olympic game venues. The money spent to develop American talent is definitley a contributing factor.
Population however is another major factor as evidenced when the Soviet Union was intact. Several times they finished ahead of the USA (which also has a big population) because of their sheer numbers and rigid training procedures.
Heart, however is another contributing factor which can out do money and population. To suggest that the U.S.A can dominate every sport even with money and population is an arrogant statement for sure. Those soccer players from Brazil, Argentina, Portugal etc etc come in with a lot of heart and passion in the absense of money. A ball and an open field is all that they need and some of them play bare footed because they can't afford soccer shoes.
Soccer's in their blood and it's their passion, which is exactly the same reason that Canada does so well in hockey, often winning with less talent. The same thing goes for the Philipinos in pool. Pool is their passion and when they lose money it hurts....BAD...real bad.
America is a very talented country with many gifted atheletes for sure.I love America and have a lot of friends there, however, to suggest with an influction of money that they can dominate everyone in everything is not a fact and I'm sure most American's in their humbleness would recognize and agree with that. RJ
turquoisecrazy said:So, u wanna turn this thread into how good u can play, through we were talking about how to rate an A player?????
My point is how can yo rate an A in your town if all have to compare are guys like Horsfall and Paul and stan? Where were they during the Derby? Probably playing in some weekly tourny tryign to make a few bucks off you guys, that is what I am talking about..
Turquoisecrazy,
If Potier and Tourangeau aren't nothing special, how come they were among the final four(along with another Canadian Steve Cherwyk) on the winners side in Reno at the big bar box eight ball event . They may not win the event, however, they've certainly shown Vancouver Canada proud with their strong showing.
With the likes of Potier, Tourangeau, Vidas and Horsfall believe me,our A LEVEL players here in Vancouver are educated and challenged. Sorry for rubbing it in, however, it's all about respect. RJ