Congratulations Rick. Here you are once again talking about a pendulum stroke, when it's obvious you still don't even know what one is.
What cue stroke are you using?
- Thread starter ENGLISH!
- Start date
Congratulations Rick. Here you are once again talking about a pendulum stroke, when it's obvious you still don't even know what one is.
:ignore:------------------:ignore:
A "pendulum stroke" is where you keep your upper arm still during the stroke. The only motion is from the elbow down. Some people refer to this as a "pinned elbow" stroke. With a pendulum stroke, the upper arm is considered part of your body, which should remain still during the stroke.
A "piston stroke" is one where you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder to keep the cue tip moving in a straight line during the entire stroke (just like a piston in the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine).
Last edited:
A "pendulum stroke" is where you keep your upper arm still during the stroke. The only motion is from the elbow down. Some people refer to this as a "pinned elbow" stroke. With a pendulum stroke, the upper arm is considered part of your body (considered, but it is not), which should remain still during the stroke.
A "piston stroke" is one where you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder to keep the cue tip moving in a straight line during the entire stroke (just like a piston in the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine).
Do you all think that those definitions are too difficult for me to understand?
I think I am educated & learned enough to understand them & comprehend their meaning. Especially since I have been playing pocket billiards for 47 years, which is the game in which those activities are involved.
Both concepts of those definitions certainly seem rather simplistic to me... especially since I have taught both baseball & golf swings which are both much more dynamically complex as they basically involve movement of the 'whole' body & not just the movement of one arm.
However...
If it were up to me, I would certainly change one thing in the definition of the 'piston stroke'.
Since I have NEVER given any conscious thought to my elbow or shoulder in all of my 47 years of playing the game... &.... my focus has always ONLY been on moving the cue & the tip in a straight line (as the definition says), I would say that the phrase, 'you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder', could be worded more appropriately. I think the words 'you coordinate' implies that a conscious effort is required when IMO a conscious effort to coordinate is not required & not necessary.
I have never consciously 'coordinated' my elbow or my shoulder in any manner.
I would state it like this, 'you simply allow them to function naturally as you focus on moving the straight cue stick & the tip on the end of the straight cue stick in a straight line'.
What could be more simple than to move a straight stick... straight.
It certainly seems to me, that it is more complicated for one to have to focus on & coordinate keeping one part of one's arm still... while also focusing on & coordinate the movement of another part of the same arm in a manner... which actually results in the straight stick rocking up, & down & up again... &... the tip on the other end doing the opposite, moving down, up & down again.
I will say it again. In all of my 47 years of playing the game I have never given any conscious thought to my elbow or my shoulder... much less any coordination of them during all of the, I don't how many, cue strokes that I've made in those 47 years.
Best Wishes to ALL,
Rick
A "piston stroke" is one where you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder to keep the cue tip moving in a straight line during the entire stroke (just like a piston in the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine).
Do you all think that those definitions are too difficult for me to understand?
I think I am educated & learned enough to understand them & comprehend their meaning. Especially since I have been playing pocket billiards for 47 years, which is the game in which those activities are involved.
Both concepts of those definitions certainly seem rather simplistic to me... especially since I have taught both baseball & golf swings which are both much more dynamically complex as they basically involve movement of the 'whole' body & not just the movement of one arm.
However...
If it were up to me, I would certainly change one thing in the definition of the 'piston stroke'.
Since I have NEVER given any conscious thought to my elbow or shoulder in all of my 47 years of playing the game... &.... my focus has always ONLY been on moving the cue & the tip in a straight line (as the definition says), I would say that the phrase, 'you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder', could be worded more appropriately. I think the words 'you coordinate' implies that a conscious effort is required when IMO a conscious effort to coordinate is not required & not necessary.
I have never consciously 'coordinated' my elbow or my shoulder in any manner.
I would state it like this, 'you simply allow them to function naturally as you focus on moving the straight cue stick & the tip on the end of the straight cue stick in a straight line'.
What could be more simple than to move a straight stick... straight.
It certainly seems to me, that it is more complicated for one to have to focus on & coordinate keeping one part of one's arm still... while also focusing on & coordinate the movement of another part of the same arm in a manner... which actually results in the straight stick rocking up, & down & up again... &... the tip on the other end doing the opposite, moving down, up & down again.
I will say it again. In all of my 47 years of playing the game I have never given any conscious thought to my elbow or my shoulder... much less any coordination of them during all of the, I don't how many, cue strokes that I've made in those 47 years.
Best Wishes to ALL,
Rick
Last edited:
Slip Stroke! I thought I invented that @ age 14, then met Cowboy Jimmy, who used it his whole life...RIP Mr. Moore
Just to be clear.
Do you mean a slip stroke where the hand slips back to grip the cue or one where the grip lets the cue slip forward on the forward stroke, sort of like a throw.
Thanks in advance & Best Wishes,
Rick
My stroke, is mine. It is unique to me.
Yes, yes... same here. TOI.
Touch Of Individuality.
Only in my case it is more like Tons Of Idiosyncrasies.
I picked option 2, but I've never actually peeked to know for sure. I'm sure it varies depending upon the shot at hand. I just see the angle and try to make the cue go in a straight line to where I want the CB to hit the OB. When I fail, I miss... just like everybody else.
Thanks for your input.
As you know, I am all in favor "to make the cue go in a straight line" as you say.
Best Wishes,
Rick
so Qballs are not supposed to have finger holes?..!?
really, you would have to see it to believe it.....
i think i took the worst part of every stroke ive seen and made it into my own .
Thanks for looking :smile: There are actually times I aim a bit lower than where I end up hitting. I think it's a carry over from a trick I read a while ago to aim at the base of the ball if you want to find the center of the cueball, so I tend to aim lower at shots. I don't have issues with getting the right draw I want most of the time, when I don't it's when I start to overthink things and force the speed I want into the shot instead of naturally shooting. Cost me a tournament win last night actually, I played shape an inch short on my last ball, which caused me to play for a sharp cut on the 8 with the cueball near the rail which I missed when it was hill hill. Lost the 1st set due to that and then lost the second set (I was in winners side so had to lose twice).
I'll look over the video a bit more and see what I'm doing more carefully, I do tend to lift up a bit at times which is why I made that video in the first place, I wanted to see exactly when I lift up, before of after I hit the ball.
so Qballs are not supposed to have finger holes?..!?
really, you would have to see it to believe it.....
i think i took the worst part of every stroke ive seen and made it into my own .
Thanks for the chuckle.
That is probably your problem.
Have you seen the movie Bager Vance?
You need to find your swing. Your one true 'authentic' swing. The one swing that is just yours alone & belongs to no one else.
The stick is straight. Move it straight. However your mind & body get that done is your true 'authentic' stroke.
Anything else is a contrivance. Either by you or by some other power that be.
Good Luck, Shoot Well, & Best Wishes,
Rick
A "pendulum stroke" is where you keep your upper arm still during the stroke. The only motion is from the elbow down. Some people refer to this as a "pinned elbow" stroke. With a pendulum stroke, the upper arm is considered part of your body (considered, but it is not), which should remain still during the stroke.
A "piston stroke" is one where you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder to keep the cue tip moving in a straight line during the entire stroke (just like a piston in the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine).
Do you all think that those definitions are too difficult for me to understand?
Well, they sure aren't too difficult for you to copy and paste. To understand?? Well, yes and no. I believe you understand the wording of them, but you clearly don't understand the concepts behind them.
I think I am educated & learned enough to understand them & comprehend their meaning. Especially since I have been playing pocket billiards for 47 years, which is the game in which those activities are involved.
How can you make this statement, when in just a little while you make the statement that you have never consciously thought about them before you came on here??
Both concepts of those definitions certainly seem rather simplistic to me... especially since I have taught both baseball & golf swings which are both much more dynamically complex as they basically involve movement of the 'whole' body & not just the movement of one arm.
You aren't helping your case at all when you say they are so simplistic, yet you have hundreds of posts documenting the fact that you don't understand them. You are even on record many times as saying that you don't understand how a pendulum stroke can even work.
However...
If it were up to me, I would certainly change one thing in the definition of the 'piston stroke'.
Not surprising, you often have stated that you want to change the definitions of pool terms. Fits right in with you non-accepting attitude of what is commonly taught by all the others.
Since I have NEVER given any conscious thought to my elbow or shoulder in all of my 47 years of playing the game... &.... my focus has always ONLY been on moving the cue & the tip in a straight line (as the definition says), I would say that the phrase, 'you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder', could be worded more appropriately. I think the words 'you coordinate' implies that a conscious effort is required when IMO a conscious effort to coordinate is not required & not necessary.
I have never consciously 'coordinated' my elbow or my shoulder in any manner.
Amazing that you would say this, even more amazing that you as a wannabe instructor would even advocate this. You freely admit that your stroke is what it is, you have never consciously worked on it. Never broken it down to it's parts to see what does what and why, have no clue therefore on how to fix a faulty stroke, or even what would make one faulty. Never even worked on your own stroke. Never had any trouble with your own stroke and worked on it to fix it.
I would state it like this, 'you simply allow them to function naturally as you focus on moving the straight cue stick & the tip on the end of the straight cue stick in a straight line'.
What could be more simple than to move a straight stick... straight.
It's simple, huh? So simple that you can't comprehend anything else that could possibly be easier? Yet, you yourself seldom do it. I've never seen you play, but I guarantee you seldom go straight with your cue. Very few actually do. It takes conscious training to be able to do so. This statement of yours showcases just how naive you really are about these subjects.
It certainly seems to me, that it is more complicated for one to have to focus on & coordinate keeping one part of one's arm still... while also focusing on & coordinate the movement of another part of the same arm in a manner... which actually results in the straight stick rocking up, & down & up again... &... the tip on the other end doing the opposite, moving down, up & down again.
Another fine showcase of your naivety.
I will say it again. In all of my 47 years of playing the game I have never given any conscious thought to my elbow or my shoulder... much less any coordination of them during all of the, I don't how many, cue strokes that I've made in those 47 years.
Amazing that you claim to want to help people, yet you brag about that. Just amazing!
Best Wishes to ALL,
Rick
One more item- you seem to constantly refer to a straight stroke when you should be saying a level stroke. Oh, wait.... maybe that's just you renaming common terms again.
- P.S.- So sorry for you that you aren't getting the results you hoped to use for future ammo in your "pendulum discussions" with your poll. Seems pendulum and pendulum variations are killing your prescribed methods.:wink:
And, just so I'm not misunderstood, nothing I stated here was meant to mock you, although I fully believe and expect you to twist it and take it that way. Instead, it was meant to point out some of the obvious to you. Nothing I stated was false in any way. So, try taking an honest look at it.
Did he really write all that -- the parts in dark blue, I mean? (I have 'im on ignore, so I don't know.)
I have to say, I've *NEVER* seen anyone so singularly focused on denouncing and trying to "take on / take down" such a small item as what kind of stroke is taught as a good baseline. Honestly. This lockjawed obsession is sheer mindblowing stuff. Never seen anything like it.
And, let's review:
1. This stuff (the pendulum stroke) has been taught -- with overwhelmingly great results -- for decades. In other words, time-tested and proven. That should be the end of it right there, but let's continue...
2. It's ratified by the Billiard Congress of America. (At the minimum, it's an offshoot of BCA instruction that has been VERY successful.)
3. The concept behind it -- of less moving parts is simpler to repeat and troubleshoot (especially when under duress) -- is so simple, that it takes great effort to break it or go against what's common logic -- arguing against the K.I.S.S. principle. And the effort he's putting into this is just monumental.
4. He has no formal [pool] instruction, nor is he affiliated with any known pool instruction syllabus. But yet, he's expending such a huge amount of effort to argue against decades of proven success, using nothing but his own (very limited, and no exposure to anything else) experience.
5. He uses phraseology like, "he doesn't have to think about his elbow, and only concentrates on the cue going straight." As if to say that a pinned elbow is "always, always, always" something to think about. He forgets that the same muscle memories he "thinks" is responsible for what he "thinks" is his cue going straight, can also be applied to ingrain a pinned elbow into one's PSR. You, Neil, I, and others know that we don't think about our elbow once ingrained into our PSR. It stays pinned with no conscious thought, and the movement is an "ingrained" K.I.S.S. movement. No "thinking" necessary. But not according to him! That old expression, "we mock what we don't know or understand" applies in spades here.
6. Although one's head is positioned over the cue, the very slight "up and down" movement he refers to as being part and parcel with the pendulum stroke is, to us, not even noticeable. Once we're in our Set position with the cue tip positioned at the cue ball where we want to strike it, we don't need to "watch" our cue (like he does) to see that it goes straight and hits the intended contact point on the ball. We only need to focus on that contact point with the cue ball, and the resulting shot line to the object ball (regardless of aiming system used). However, "he" has to think of his cue going straight. We don't have to -- our arm, being able to deliver a very simplified movement with a pinned elbow -- is able to deliver the cue tip to the cue ball at the intended location in a simple, repeatable way, that's also very easy to troubleshoot. So much so, that once we're lined up, we can look away from the cue ball and shot line (look to the side), and have faith in our simplified movement to deliver the cue tip to the cue ball at the intended spot reliably, and make the shot. No "watching" the cue travel is necessary. I offer that he has a SEVERE Achilles Heel in this regard. I'll take simplified arm and cue movement over having to watch and monitor it for straightness *any day*.
<sigh> But alas, we have the The Stroke Crusades fully underway. The Stroke Inquisition. I wonder how many instructors are going to be tied to the stake and burned for their heretic (i.e. K.I.S.S.) teachings?
It's a shame to see so much effort being burned on such a STUPID thing. Like it's going to revolutionize pool? Like it's never been thought of before? Like this guy is some Che Guevara rebel or something?
Anyway, I'm sure he's going to post another wall o' text reply to this one reiterating his already-exhaustively-reiterated beliefs, so that's that for me.
-Sean <-- loves Rube Goldberg designs, but NOT in a pool stroke
Last edited:
There are TOO many twists, distortions, & untruths in there for me to even address in the time I have left here on this earth.:wink:
If you mix one half 'pendulum' with one half 'piston', what do you get?
I know you & a certain group will say,'well...it's still a pendulum'.
I'm going out to shoot pool. You have a Blessed Day.
I have not even read your crap, but I have one question for you since you have all of the answers & are omniscient.
How many years was it thought & taught that this planet was flat & the center of the universe & everything revolved around it?
It's a terrible thing to waste a mind by closing it & keeping it closed.
No...I am wrong there. That would be two(2) terrible things.
I'm going to go shoot pool.
Last edited:
Thanks Rick, same to you!, TronpocketThanks for the chuckle.
No problemo senior
That is probably your problem.
Who said it was a problem? :wink:
Have you seen the movie Bager Vance?
Was that movie when Tom Cruise worked at the supermarket and Paul newman came thru the checkout line ( to buy some Sauce) and made him a world beater in like a month?
You need to find your swing. Your one true 'authentic' swing. The one swing that is just yours alone & belongs to no one else.
i think i did!
The stick is straight. Move it straight. However your mind & body get that done is your true 'authentic' stroke.
I couldnt agree more:yeah:
Anything else is a contrivance. Either by you or by some other power that be.
Its the "curse of the cat people!!!
Good Luck, Shoot Well, & Best Wishes,
Rick
How ironic! You posting about keeping an open mind while condemning what Sean said without even reading it! How typical.
A_Lake
Politico-Kido
Slippy-Strokey
Hi^5 NoMoreSchon
I too use a Slip-Stoke on certain occasions when I need extreme follow through or English. It kinda allows lesser forearm effort to create a larger reaction off the cue ball as you allow the cue to do more of the work. I also notice players such as Dennis Orcollo or Bustamante who have a very loose stroke, seem to have a mild slip after executing a heavy shot so as to allow fluidity and not "JAM" up during the shot.
Nevertheless, no two shots are the same, the stoke for each shot has to be mildy different to facilitate each shot. (Just my 2 cents worth).
Hi^5 NoMoreSchon
I too use a Slip-Stoke on certain occasions when I need extreme follow through or English. It kinda allows lesser forearm effort to create a larger reaction off the cue ball as you allow the cue to do more of the work. I also notice players such as Dennis Orcollo or Bustamante who have a very loose stroke, seem to have a mild slip after executing a heavy shot so as to allow fluidity and not "JAM" up during the shot.
Nevertheless, no two shots are the same, the stoke for each shot has to be mildy different to facilitate each shot. (Just my 2 cents worth).
Just to clarify ONE of Sean's misleading suggestive statements.
I never watch the cue moving during the stroke.
I doubt that anyone that uses a straight moving cue like in a piston stroke ever watches the cue movement during the stroke.
Until I started using TOI after CJ introduced it, I looked at the 'spot' that I wanted to send the cue ball while making the stroke. On certain rare shots I have looked at the cue ball exactly where I wanted the tip to contact it while making the stroke as with TOI.
I can honestly say & will affirm on a stack of Bibles that in all of the I don't know how many cue strokes that I have made in my 47 years of playing the game that I have never once watched the cue stick moving during the stroke.
I, & I am sure that very very many if not all that use a straight moving cue, can close the eyes & make a straight stroke. (I would not recommend turning the head as Sean stated.)
To suggest that one has to watch the cue move to make it move straight is not only misleading either intentionally or unintentional but is ludicrous in its foundation.
To another point regarding longevity of something being taught, I am fairly sure that Scott Lee has changed what he teaches regarding whether to look at the OB or the CB during the stroke. Was what he taught earlier correct & is what he teaches now incorrect or is it the other way around.
How many years was it thought & taught that this planet was flat & at the center of the universe & ALL revolved around it? Where they correct for all of those centuries?
IMO, Those types of 'arguments' in an attempt to prove a point are illogical & representative of a closed mind that says, it's always been that way, it must be true. I don't know where science would be today if everyone had that type of thinking.
Best to ALL & sorry for the derailment.
Rick
I never watch the cue moving during the stroke.
I doubt that anyone that uses a straight moving cue like in a piston stroke ever watches the cue movement during the stroke.
Until I started using TOI after CJ introduced it, I looked at the 'spot' that I wanted to send the cue ball while making the stroke. On certain rare shots I have looked at the cue ball exactly where I wanted the tip to contact it while making the stroke as with TOI.
I can honestly say & will affirm on a stack of Bibles that in all of the I don't know how many cue strokes that I have made in my 47 years of playing the game that I have never once watched the cue stick moving during the stroke.
I, & I am sure that very very many if not all that use a straight moving cue, can close the eyes & make a straight stroke. (I would not recommend turning the head as Sean stated.)
To suggest that one has to watch the cue move to make it move straight is not only misleading either intentionally or unintentional but is ludicrous in its foundation.
To another point regarding longevity of something being taught, I am fairly sure that Scott Lee has changed what he teaches regarding whether to look at the OB or the CB during the stroke. Was what he taught earlier correct & is what he teaches now incorrect or is it the other way around.
How many years was it thought & taught that this planet was flat & at the center of the universe & ALL revolved around it? Where they correct for all of those centuries?
IMO, Those types of 'arguments' in an attempt to prove a point are illogical & representative of a closed mind that says, it's always been that way, it must be true. I don't know where science would be today if everyone had that type of thinking.
Best to ALL & sorry for the derailment.
Rick